So, What's a Cloud, anyway?

kjwalker01

kjwalker01

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Keith
This has bothered me for quite a while, which I figure means that other people have the same question, but are afraid to ask. Or not. But, whatever....

These were around the DFW area on Sunday. What, exactly, constitutes a cloud that you would stay away from? I get the typical 1000, 500, 2000 or Clear-of-Clouds, but... are these really clouds in that context?

Exhibit A (see arrow):

Cloud A.jpg

Exhibit B (see arrow):

Cloud B.jpg

Exhibit C (no arrow needed):

2015-05-31 12.09.35.jpg
 
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Well, D@mn... doesn't look like the attach image is working for me. I'll look at it again tomorrow. Disregard for now.
 
To answer the question I think you're getting at, the FAA doesn't define it exactly, but a very common convention is that if it can hide an aircraft, it's a cloud. The point of VFR cloud clearances is to avoid getting whacked by an IFR aircraft popping out of a cloud.

Those wispy things you can see right through are not clouds under that definition. Neither is something real small.
 
I remember asking my PPL CFI also what defines a cloud...his response: "Could you see another aircraft on the other side of it?...if you can, its not a cloud!"
 
kjwalker01 said:
This has bothered me for quite a while, which I figure means that other people have the same question, but are afraid to ask. Or not. But, whatever....

These were around the DFW area on Sunday. What, exactly, constitutes a cloud that you would stay away from? I get the typical 1000, 500, 2000 or Clear-of-Clouds, but... are these really clouds in that context?

Exhibit A:



Exhibit B:



Exhibit C:



My apologies if the formatting doesn't turn out. I appreciate the opinions.
Click to expand...

Attaching is a two part process, first the upload, then the link to the post.

"If you can't see through it, it's a cloud" is the standard I was taught and apply.
 
Henning said:
Attaching is a two part process, first the upload, then the link to the post.

"If you can't see through it, it's a cloud" is the standard I was taught and apply.
Click to expand...

Yup, and since I can see through all the examples, none are clouds :goofy:
 
It is where your e-mail and data gets lost never to be seen again
 
Where you send pictures and Internet stuff you forgot about.
 
On one of my initial training flights I popped through one of your A examples and my CFI got a little jumpy about it, reminding me that I shouldn't fly through clouds like I just did. I seriously thought he was joking, but didn't know any better so I took his word for it. I've since changed back to a firm belief that that's not a cloud and I can fly through them without worry.

With B, hard to tell how wide/thick it is, if it's the size of the airplane itself no problem really, but any bigger I'll hop around it. I won't go crazy to stay 1000/500/2000 from it though.
 
a.) Can see thru, not a cloud
b. & c.) Can't see thru, cloud
 
If you can see 3 miles through the visible moisture (or 1 mile or 5, depending on time and class of airspace), it's not a cloud. If you cannot maintain flight visibility requirements, it's a cloud. That said, I'd agree with others that 'A' does not appear to be a cloud. Use your best judgement.
 
Matthew said:
That's what I would say, based on how I was taught.

A cloud doesn't need to be large to hide a plane that's on the other side of it.
Click to expand...

I agree. Given the right alignment, the cloud in #2 could hide an approaching plane from view.
 
Just maintain VFR.

IOW if you don't lose your VFR visibility requirements then it's effectively not a "cloud" as far as flying is concerned. If you can't maintain VFR in it then stay clear as per the regs.
 
It's all about seeing and avoiding other aircraft. I've always figured that if I can see the horizon through it, I can see a plane through it, and it's not a cloud. I've said that before quite a few DPE's and FAA Inspectors, and none of them have ever disagreed with that position.
 
If you have to ask, you can't afford a cloud.
 
kjwalker01 said:
This has bothered me for quite a while, which I figure means that other people have the same question, but are afraid to ask. Or not. But, whatever....

These were around the DFW area on Sunday. What, exactly, constitutes a cloud that you would stay away from? I get the typical 1000, 500, 2000 or Clear-of-Clouds, but... are these really clouds in that context?

Exhibit A (see arrow):

View attachment 39704

Exhibit B (see arrow):

View attachment 39705

Exhibit C (no arrow needed):

View attachment 39706
Click to expand...

I understand your question. during training I asked the same question. my CFI would usually call A an "area of reduced visibility"...and then smile. but B and C are indeed clouds. so your question really revolves around A. technically, the way I was taught, if you can't see the ground clearly you are in a cloud and it should be avoided when flying VFR.
 
rk911 said:
...technically, the way I was taught, if you can't see the ground clearly you are in a cloud...
Click to expand...
Plenty of days I've been unable to see the ground at all -- up there in the clear blue above the clouds. However...

...and it should be avoided when flying VFR.
Click to expand...
...that is a location those unqualified/unequipped for instrument flight should tread with extreme caution, and Student/Sport Pilots not at all.
 
overdrive148 said:
You wouldn't download a cloud.
Click to expand...

Nobody understands the cloud!

Actually, just to break with tradition and go back to the OP: A is virga. I you can see through it, you can fly through it. B&C are opaque and therefore clouds.

John
 
rk911 said:
I understand your question. during training I asked the same question. my CFI would usually call A an "area of reduced visibility"...and then smile. but B and C are indeed clouds. so your question really revolves around A. technically, the way I was taught, if you can't see the ground clearly you are in a cloud and it should be avoided when flying VFR.
Click to expand...

We must have had the same instructor. I was just thinking the same thing while reading the thread.
 
If it is white and I fly through it: it is a cloud if I am IFR and it is a localized area of reduced visibility if I am VFR.
 
topsail said:
In Florida some of the VFR folks don't believe clouds exist.
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HaHaHaHa!! I wish that were true, this time of year the dang sky always has puffy things floating around, they tell me these are indeed clouds.
 
topsail said:
In Florida some of the VFR folks don't believe clouds exist.
Click to expand...

Hah. I've spent most summers of my life in Florida as my relatives are all there. One of my flying goals is to fly commercially to Orlando then fly around in a small plane to visit various family members who all live close to GA airports.

The weather, however, will be quite different for me. Namely that there will be some. In SoCal, it's pretty simple: marine layer or rain storm, I stay down; otherwise, I go fly. I'll have to actually learn about weather before being comfortable there. I've had times of nice sunny days and in 30 minutes a thunderstorm covers the sky with crazy winds and in another 30 minutes, it's back to clear skies.
 
Timmer said:
Hah. I've spent most summers of my life in Florida as my relatives are all there. One of my flying goals is to fly commercially to Orlando then fly around in a small plane to visit various family members who all live close to GA airports.

The weather, however, will be quite different for me. Namely that there will be some. In SoCal, it's pretty simple: marine layer or rain storm, I stay down; otherwise, I go fly. I'll have to actually learn about weather before being comfortable there. I've had times of nice sunny days and in 30 minutes a thunderstorm covers the sky with crazy winds and in another 30 minutes, it's back to clear skies.
Click to expand...

Welcome to flying in Fla...... Trick is to fly in the morning and be tied down by 2 pm..
 
N801BH said:
Welcome to flying in Fla...... Trick is to fly in the morning and be tied down by 2 pm..
Click to expand...

Hah indeed. I'll probably avoid flying in the key summer months anyway. Heck, I don't even like to be outside if I'm visiting out there between June and September.

I'll definitely try to find some good weather instructors out there and take some time learning about clouds and winds and convection that I only know about in book theory out here.
 
The bugs on your windshield are more of a cloud than exhibit A.
 
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