so ready to quit

Another vote for the different instructor. My instructor took a vacation to Bermuda literally the day after I soloed, so I flew with another for a while. I got to hear his perspective on everything, which was great. I kept some things the same, changed up the way I did other things. It was a great experience all around.
 
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Jthamilton said:
Lots of great advice has been mentioned and not one of the helpful pilots greased the concept of landing on the first or second try! :no:
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I was well over 100 if I remember correctly before I could even begin to conceive the concept. Now with over 400 hrs there are times I feel I have forget everything I learned, and then on other days life's real good. There is nothing like landing a plane to bring you back to the earth.
 
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eman1200 said:
yup, my instructor says once it clicks I'll just get it. well, several grand later, it hasn't clicked.

watch, it'll click tomorrow and I'll solo, then I'll feel bad about this post. but right now I'm just ticked.
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wait ... wha? solo? tomorrow? And you can't land the plane?

Here's you an old fashioned Texas pep talk FWIW. Grow up or get out. Maybe you're not pilot material. Pilots never consider quitting, because they love it. If you don't love it, and find it thrilling and relatively fun to learn, stop beating your$elf up, and wasting time another student PILOT will gladly take. Good luck. B)

And slow down. You're approaching too fast. Is the stall horn going off at all when you flair? Tell your instructor he's a no-teaching jerk and fire him. Do something. Even if it's wrong.

Your premise is correct that doing the same thing over and over again, with the same results, is the definition of insanity.
 
txflyer said:
wait ... wha? solo? tomorrow? And you can't land the plane?

Here's you an old fashioned Texas pep talk FWIW. Grow up or get out. Maybe you're not pilot material. Pilots never consider quitting, because they love it. If you don't love it, and find it thrilling and relatively fun to learn, stop beating your$elf up, and wasting time another student PILOT will gladly take. Good luck. B)

And slow down. You're approaching too fast. Is the stall horn going off at all when you flair? Tell your instructor he's a no-teaching jerk and fire him. Do something. Even if it's wrong.

Your premise is correct that doing the same thing over and over again, with the same results, is the definition of insanity.
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This seems harsh, but there's something in here that's important. Most pilots seem to LOVE landing because it's challenging. Real challenging. Take up that emotion; decide that landing is something you will not let beat you. Revel in the difficulty, and then rejoice once you beat it into submission (mostly!).
 
How many times have you flown the length of the runway at 1' AGL with the airplane fully configured for landing (and using full flaps) with just enough power to maintain the 1' altitude?
 
bbchien said:
Ooh. That's it. Let airspeed down to 70-75 (mph) on final. If you mean knots, you are Wayyyyyyyyyyy to fast.

That whole discussion about the yoke moving the barest amount for the first move on roundout (from before) - most of that'll all go away by deducting 5 knots.
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I teach in a 140 every day and 80 is a good reference number on final, 70 for short field. But on a normal approach you need to start bleeding speed on short final with 75 or so over threshold.

It's all about energy management. Try to level off 5-10' over the runway, then play the "hold it off" game. Every time it starts to sink add just a touch of back pressure...but only enough to arrest the descent, not climb. As it slows, it will begin to sink....repeat as above. The mains should kiss the runway close to the stall light coming on.
 
wabower said:
How many times have you flown the length of the runway at 1' AGL with the airplane fully configured for landing (and using full flaps) with just enough power to maintain the 1' altitude?
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:yeahthat:

Especially for xwind practice.
 
I'll bet dollars to donuts you aren't using the trim all the way down to the runway. Trim, trim, trim, every time your hand does something to the throttle, it should immediately thereafter do something to the trim. Before your next flight, do a stall speed taxi run down the full length of the longest runway at your airport and run a wheelie the whole way. Set the trim to hold that wheelie, that is where your trim should be on landing. When you're coming down short final and rounding out, you should be constantly adding trim to that point as you slow down so that touch down is just a matter of killing the last bit of throttle as ground effect kicks in.
 
If all you have been doing is circuits in the pattern, try going out and doing air work for awhile, heck just go get a cheeseburger somewhere...remember flying is supposed to be fun, believe me its hard to remember that sometimes going through CFI training. Also, maybe try going and doing some slow flight at 78-80 mph and getting a really good feel for how the plane wants to react at that speed. Sometimes taking a step back for awhile can really help.
 
Also, I didnt start greasing landings until my commercial training...somewhere between 150-200 hours I think, so don't beat yourself up too much.
 
Airspeed airspeed airspeed you have to nail. The airspeed on approach and final,then fly the aircraft on I would try 70 -75 as t hat airplane likes to float then just hold it off just above stall till it lands.
 
DOn't quit. I had over 200 landings before I took my Sport Pilot Checkride.
 
Don't quit until you've tried a different instructor for a couple of hours. I normally don't try and critique other CFIs because it does take a while for things like this to click in your head, but if you've spent hour upon hour and thousands of dollars in the pattern and you're still not getting it it's a sign that your CFI is the one that's not getting it. Unfortunately, that happens too. All of the tips and suggestions that you've been given regarding airspeed, power, sight picture are valid, but honestly, shouldn't your instructor have discussed all of this with you in a way that you understand and incorporate into your actions? I'm not saying he or she is a bad instructor, it's just that he/she might not be the right instructor for you. It happens. Try someone else before you quit.
 
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One thing that worked for me was asking the CFI to fly the final for me and me just kinda watch. Its one thing to be told how to do something and another entirely to see it and feel what he is doing with the controls. When was the last time you just followed through on the yoke?
 
bbchien said:
Just try it 5 mph slower. Just tell him what you want to do, so he won't have a cow. At full flaps your stall is at 56 knots, so that IS 1.3 Vso.

Or try it with another CFI. :)
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Sure you mean mph. POH I am looking at say Vso = 54 mph.

OP dude, 80 is waay fast. 1.3 Vso = 70 and that give you plenty of margin unless the gust factor is over 10 kt. I would be at 70 mph on final and not a stitch over that. I had a lot of trouble with landings and actually stopped my IR just short of the checkride because I was not happy with my landings. Two things helped;

1. Make Better Landings by Alan Ellesmere Bramson
A friggin' penny http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0442213085/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used
2. Tailwheel tailwheel tailwheel. Stick and rudder skill not to mention fun!

ps, are you cleared to solo yet?
 
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your mentality mirrors mine. After each bad lesson I have I always say I'm going to quit. This is called resignation, and it is one of the 5 hazardous attitudes you learn of when studying for the ppl knowledge exam. I'm not really in a position to give you any motivational advice since I'm in a rut myself now, but for me, the feeling of resignation always goes away after a few days away from flying. I know many, if not all, will disagree and tell me I need to be training at least twice a week, but I've decided it would be best for me to just come in every Friday. With the crummy NJ summer weather, this could mean two or three weeks without flying. But the longer I am away from flying, the more I miss it, no matter how poorly I did in my last lesson. And besides, spreading out the lessons actually gives my wallet some fresh air and allows it to grow. It's a good feeling to not be spending all your money on one thing.
 
Don't quit whatever you do. I had the same problem and overcame it. If a ham-handed fool like me can do it you can too.

The other thing is, the boys are right, you are coming in a hair too fast. Then again, if your airport is big enough, float a bit. The aircraft will land when its good and ready. Figure out how to put it down. You can worry later about how to get it where you want it.
 
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eman1200 said:
sorry, 78-80 MPH, which I believe is in the POH and is the speed my instructor is asking me to nail, which I have been doing. of course, as I have the runway made, I slowly pull the power until just before roundout, then it's full idle. IF the plane floats, its not due to my speed but due to what I think are slightly abrupt yoke movements. a bunch of people have made the suggestion of eeeeeaasy yoke movements, I really need to focus more on that. I dunno, trust me people of PoA, I am listening to everything you have to say, I just haven't been able to apply it in this case.
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What is the indicated stall speed in landing configuration?
 
Question. Is your instructor assisting or taking the controls during landing?
Also, how many hours, how far along in training?

And as others have said 78-80 is way to fast for a piper. The low wing will just sit on the "cushion" of air being created and float half way down the runway.
Abeam the #'s set power, flaps 10 and slow to 70. Keep it there all the way around. Power to idle and slow round out should have you to 60 in the flair.
 
bbchien said:
Ooh. That's it. Let airspeed down to 70-75 (mph) on final. If you mean knots, you are Wayyyyyyyyyyy to fast.

That whole discussion about the yoke moving the barest amount for the first move on roundout (from before) - most of that'll all go away by deducting 5 knots.
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:yeahthat:

In the "Thin Wing" (68) Cessna 177 I fly the approach at 80 MPH and cross the numbers around 70 MPH. I can't imagine approach in a fat winged Piper or 172 that fast working well for students
 
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I was ready to pack it in a month ago. Switched CFIs, he gave me some advice and got my sign off. Now I am flying more confidently and my landings have never been better. It's all in your power settings, speed, and the picture you are seeing. Different CFIs have different perspectives on what you may/may not be doing. It's worth a second opinion. Good luck.
 
If you truly enjoy flying, you won't give up. It took me about 240 landings before I finally grasped the importance of managing air speed all the way from abeam the numbers to crossing the threshold. Now I'm no longer surprised when I actually manage to land.:)
 
The question of where to look is one that gets many people excited. I used to teach the "look to the end of the runway" technique. However, AFH explains it somewhat differently. Here is an excerpt. I urge you to go to Chapter 8 and read the entire discussion on where to look to get the full explanation.

"The distance at which the pilot’s vision is focused
should be proportionate to the speed at which the
airplane is traveling over the ground. Thus, as speed is
reduced during the roundout, the distance ahead of the
airplane at which it is possible to focus should be
brought closer accordingly.
If the pilot attempts to focus on a reference that is too
close or looks directly down, the reference will
become blurred, [Figure 8-5] and the reaction will be
either too abrupt or too late. In this case, the pilot’s
tendency will be to overcontrol, round out high, and
make full-stall, drop-in landings. When the pilot
focuses too far ahead, accuracy in judging the
closeness of the ground is lost and the consequent
reaction will be too slow since there will not appear to
be a necessity for action. This will result in the
airplane flying into the ground nose first. The change
of visual focus from a long distance to a short distance
requires a definite time interval and even though the
time is brief, the airplane’s speed during this interval is
such that the airplane travels an appreciable distance,
both forward and downward toward the ground."
 
If you are flying a PA28 -

After you pull the power to idle, give it 1-2 full rolls of nose up trim right after you pull the power to idle

Also, the rubber yoke bushing in the panel gets worn and very sticky. When you are pulling back to flare with one hand there is a lot of side pressure generated (trimming helps to reduce this) on that bushing and it causes the yoke to be stick, making your movements seem abrupt.

When I flew PA28's a lot I kept a bottle of silicone lubricant in my flight bag and I applied it to the yoke before every flight. Pull the yoke all the way out, put a few drops on the shaft and then use a paper towel to spread a light film all the way up/down the surface of both pilot and co-pilot yoke shafts

As others have said 80mph is way fast. Try 70-75
 
tonycondon said:
yea you're way too fast but no matter how fast you fly the approach, hold it off the runway until it won't stay in the air any longer. attempt to hold altitude at 1-3' AGL for as long as possible
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that advice helped me when I trained. I had a tendency to flare too much and would balloon all the time. Have the CFI show you a landing and see where the horizon sits in the windshield when he flares. My CFI told me to have the distant tree line about 3 inches above the glare shield for my plane. I use that sight picture all the time to give me an idea of how much I have the nose raised.
 
Several questions/thoughts about changing it up.

1. As taught by your CFI, how do short-field landings differ from normal landings? I'd be willing to bet you would see significant and immediate progress by working on S/F techniques that, absent an obstacle, can be flown at a constant power setting, IAS and deck angle and used to eliminate many of the problems that seem to be inherent in your present mode.

2. If you were teaching a friend to park a car in a garage or dock a boat, what speed range would you recommend they use? High end or low end?

3. Do you understand the math for calculating change in stall speed relative to reduced weight? If so, figure it out for your plane. If not, we can help you work the puzzle.

4. Part of it could be a patience issue. If your CFI is hung up on using the higher approach speeds, that doesn't mean the plane won't land, it simply means it will land "down there on that end" rather than "up here on this end" where we'd like to touch down. So if you're instinctively controlling the plane to make it land "up here" you are peeing up a rope. It ain't gonna happen, so stay with it and make a good landing "down there" assuming there's enough "down there" to do it without damaging the perimeter fence.
 
dell30rb said:
If you are flying a PA28 -

...the rubber yoke bushing in the panel gets worn and very sticky. When you are pulling back to flare with one hand there is a lot of side pressure generated (trimming helps to reduce this) on that bushing and it causes the yoke to be stick, making your movements seem abrupt.

When I flew PA28's a lot I kept a bottle of silicone lubricant in my flight bag and I applied it to the yoke before every flight. Pull the yoke all the way out, put a few drops on the shaft and then use a paper towel to spread a light film all the way up/down the surface of both pilot and co-pilot yoke shafts
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THIS!

I read 63 posts looking for someone to mention this and, nearing the end, was starting to craft my own response. I can't emphasize this enough. You need to start here and if the problem persists--try one of the other 62 advices.

dtuuri
 
What everyone else said... But in addition to try another CFI for their opinion I highly suggest getting out of the pattern and doing something else for a bit. Landing is only part of flying and sometimes I think too much emphasis is placed on landings and solo. Do a short XC, remember why you started to fly in the first place.
Stop beating the landings to a smithereen. I'll bet your landings are really ok. If you aren't dropping it in from 10 feet or landing off the side of the runway, or porpoising, or ballooning so high you have to go around then you're not doing terribly. Trying for "perfect" greasers is unnecessary at your stage of learning. Rod machado just posted an article somewhere that discussed appropriate criteria for solo and greasing it on wasn't one of them.

Go somewhere, have fun, relax.... Fly with another CFI as a stage check kind of thing.
 
Your next assignment

1. Print this thread and organize/summarize all the suggestions. Group them into categories for ease of use. Don't be shy about the number of suggestions that include flying with another CFI.

2. Call your CFI. Tell him that you want to schedule an hour of ground school before your next lesson to discuss the list and get his input regarding the value of the suggestions.

3. Let us know how it goes. So far we've only heard one side of the story.
 
eman1200 said:
yup, my instructor says once it clicks I'll just get it. well, several grand later, it hasn't clicked.

watch, it'll click tomorrow and I'll solo, then I'll feel bad about this post. but right now I'm just ticked.
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How many hours do you have?
 
dell30rb said:
.....Also, the rubber yoke bushing in the panel gets worn and very sticky. When you are pulling back to flare with one hand there is a lot of side pressure generated (trimming helps to reduce this) on that bushing and it causes the yoke to be stick, making your movements seem abrupt......
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ok, thanks for the responses, I owe some of you answers, but 2 things:
1) to the above post, a while back I realized the side pressure was making me THINK I had pulled the yoke back, but really it was just pressed up against the side. I believe I have overcome this, and realize that last little bit of back pressure actually needs some "up" pressure as well, and

2) summary of my flight this morning, 7 landings:

1- roundout a little too early/high, "slammed" it in, but on the mains
2- roundout a little too low, "slammed" it in but on the mains
3- roundout a little too early/high, "slammed" it in, but on the mains
4- roundout a little too low, "slammed" it in but on the mains
5- roundout a little too low, "slammed" it in but on the mains
6-roundout a little too early/high, "slammed" it in, but on the mains
7-roundout a little too early/high, "slammed" it in, but on the mains

oh, and:

8- no solo (mostly by my request, I wanna do it right)

and really the 'slamming' wasn't horrible, CFi says he'd take those any day over hitting nosewheel first.

and to be clear, if I didn't love to fly, I wouldn't be this PO'd about not getting something right. After a good nights sleep, I woke up pumped for today's flight and now have a few days off until Saturdays lesson (notice I didn't say Saturday's solo) :)
 
eman1200 said:
ok, thanks for the responses, I owe some of you answers, but 2 things:
1) to the above post, a while back I realized the side pressure was making me THINK I had pulled the yoke back, but really it was just pressed up against the side. I believe I have overcome this, and realize that last little bit of back pressure actually needs some "up" pressure as well, and

2) summary of my flight this morning, 7 landings:

1- roundout a little too early/high, "slammed" it in, but on the mains
2- roundout a little too low, "slammed" it in but on the mains
3- roundout a little too early/high, "slammed" it in, but on the mains
4- roundout a little too low, "slammed" it in but on the mains
5- roundout a little too low, "slammed" it in but on the mains
6-roundout a little too early/high, "slammed" it in, but on the mains
7-roundout a little too early/high, "slammed" it in, but on the mains

oh, and:

8- no solo (mostly by my request, I wanna do it right)

and really the 'slamming' wasn't horrible, CFi says he'd take those any day over hitting nosewheel first.

and to be clear, if I didn't love to fly, I wouldn't be this PO'd about not getting something right. After a good nights sleep, I woke up pumped for today's flight and now have a few days off until Saturdays lesson (notice I didn't say Saturday's solo) :)
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Not enough visial que to overcome initial training barriers? Ever flown a Cessna?
 
a firm arrival on the mains at a nice slow appropriate touchdown speed is much better than a "smooth" landing on all 3. the slower you touch down (slower the better IMO) the more difficult it is to get a "smooth" landing.
 
I agree with tony. If you are consistent and it sounds like you are and the landings are solid but not bouncing then Id bet you're fine.
 
PilotAlan said:
THIS!
We deal with this regularly is law enforcement training, when someone has a block that they're stuck at.

Put them with another person, who sees things differently, explains things differently, and just changes the dynamic, and usually the problem evaporated.
People relate to things and people differently. No harm is giving it a try.
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:yes::yeahthat:
 
When I hear ''slamming'', first thing that comes to mind is airspeed has decayed to point of where the plane no longer wants to fly and the aircraft is too high.

I'm no instructor but I also trained in Cherokee and owned a cherokee 6/300 for around 250 hours flying time. Keep trying!
 
eman1200 said:
piper Cherokee 140 and 78-80 on final
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Too fast assuming its in MPH, it's pretty hard to land like that. make it 70-75 and LOOK ALL THE WAY DOWN AT THE END OF THE RUNWAY while trying to land. Don't look at the pavement right in front of you. Just slow it down on final, hold it right over the runway, keep it straight and centered, the plane will practically land itself. Whenever I have problems with the flare it's due to three things:

1. Too fast on final - It *has* to be no more than 70mph over the numbers or it will float.

2. Severe lack of patience on my part - which in the past has also contributed to me saying "I'm going to quit." Ahem...

3. Trying to command the airplane onto the ground, rather than flying the plane to a stall, which is pretty much what a landing is.

Are you hearing the stall warning horn at all?

And some time with a different instructor, just to break patterns and get a different perspective, is always a good idea.
 
It's too fast even in knots. But it's way too fast in MPH.

Quite a lot of folks get stuck at landing. You WILL get it eventually. The suggestion made earlier to try a different instructor for an hour or two can make a lot of difference. Pick a very experienced instructor regardless of cost, even if it's $100/hour. It's only going to be for an hour or two, and if it succeeds in getting you over the hump, that cost is going to come back to you many times over.
 
eman1200 said:
After a good nights sleep, I woke up pumped for today's flight and now have a few days off until Saturdays lesson (notice I didn't say Saturday's solo) :)
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I was actually curious through all of this if you needed a little time off from it. Seemed like you were flying nearly daily.

A couple days off may help.

David
 
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