So I need to learn slips...

[Tomahawk674]

Where's Jesse when you need him....

Went up for some T&Gs today. very slight crosswind from the west, using runway 35. First 4 went pretty well, I was very happy with them.

It was time for the full stop, we got cleared to land as we were abeam the numbers, but tower nicely told us to get moving since there was a Citation coming in. turned to final, full flaps, engine to iddle, but still to high and too fast, CFI said to put in in a slip, but I had no experience performing them, so he slipped it down and gave me the plane back for touchdown... at least my touchdown was nice....

Next time I go up I plan to just practice doing slips...

 

[jesse]

Where's Jesse when you need him....

Went up for some T&Gs today. very slight crosswind from the west, using runway 35. First 4 went pretty well, I was very happy with them.

It was time for the full stop, we got cleared to land as we were abeam the numbers, but tower nicely told us to get moving since there was a Citation coming in. turned to final, full flaps, engine to iddle, but still to high and too fast, CFI said to put in in a slip, but I had no experience performing them, so he slipped it down and gave me the plane back for touchdown... at least my touchdown was nice....

Next time I go up I plan to just practice doing slips...

You spend so many hours learning how to fly coordinated. You put so much effort into making nice smooth turns with the ball in the center. You learn how to hold the right rudder on takeoff to counteract the torque. After time you become very good at flying coordinated. You know what flying is supposed to feel like. When it doesn't feel right you don't like that and you fix it.

This is where the problem comes in with slips. It's uncoordinated flight to achieve your desired goal. I still consider it very coordinated--because you are applying the control inputs to make the airplane obey you. I know there are pilots out there that simply refuse to use a slip and will go around. This is their choice and is fair. But I really don't think they put the thought into it.

If you are capable of landing in a crosswind and you aren't in Greg's 195. You are capable of slipping at low level. Now some people may think that if you aren't established on final by a certain altitude that it's wise to go around. This may be the case-- But this is only the case because they are not comfortable with it. It doesn't mean that those that are comfortable with it cannot do it safely. Plus it can come in very useful when a tower requests a short approach for an incoming jet. If they say short approach the words "turning base" is always my response (haven't had a time yet where the runway didn't allow). If the airspeed is in the white it's cut power, full flaps, full slip, and a turn towards the runway holding the slip until touchdown. If I'm too fast for flaps, It's cut power, nose up, slip, start turn, flaps when possible. (The amount of slip you do at higher airspeeds should be considered due to stress). Keep in mind airspeed indications in a slip are no good. If you slip nose up be aware that you could stall above your indicated stall speed since you could be going slower. This is going to take some practice and feel. Based on my testing slipping nose up and applying flaps when it hits the white on your indicated airspeed is still way above your stalling speed. If you have the nose pointed down stalling is not a factor. Please do be careful with nose up slips at low altitudes until you become familiar with your capabilities and your airplanes capabilities.

The thing that I really do love about slipping is it is beautiful. It's about feel. It's not about reaching down and flipping a lever and having this very mechanical feeling thing increase your drag and lift. Slipping is a nice smooth action that allows me to adjust my touchdown point on the fly without effort. It's also the only way to land airplanes I fly in a crosswind. If a pilot is not comfortable with slipping on a landing I really do doubt they are comfortable with a nice strong gusting crosswind. It's OK to make control movements low to the ground. This is how you stay safe. It's OK to make any control movement that makes the airplane stay where you want it and go where you want it. The slower you get into your landing and the larger such control movements are going to have to be in the event of a gust. Those that won't make the movement usually just end up with an ugly landing. Some of them are less lucky though.

The only way to get comfortable with all of this is by trying it in the airplane. I have no problem with full slipping down to about 5 feet and straightening in the flare because I have practiced it over and over and over and over.

Keep in mind that this is just all my opinion..and I'm not a CFI---yet.

 

[tonycondon]

Jesse would never be able to show you slips Jav. I think hes scared of the traumahawk

He does describe them well though. I doubt he wrote that! haha

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

.

Well stated Jesse.

 

[flyersfan31]

Slips are a blast!

I'd be worried in a Traumahawk though, given its reputation. That's the downside of doing all your flying in benign, basic trainers like Archers and Sundowners.

 

[Tomahawk674]

Tomahawks are really nice planes! Scott, care to back me up?

Their bad reputation is when it comes to spinning, which I haven't tried myself, so I can't comment on that.

I do have to say that having flown the warrior the other day, it came across as being much more docile, specially when landing... hmmm... if only I could afford to rent that one more often...

 

[midlifeflyer]

Tomahawks are really nice planes! Scott, care to back me up?

I'll back you up. I did my primary training in them. Including slips. Great airplane.

 

[Eamon]

The Trama hawk thing is an OWT.

Even if it wasn't,the tale is about going into a flat spin. Any plane will bob up & down for the first 1-3 spins and after that they "might" go flat.

If you enter a spin in ANY plane at 500 ft (Base to final) the spin characteristics of the plane will not matter. You are not going to make enough of a spin to find out.

 

[jason]

<stuff>

Nice writeup, Jesse...

Slips are a blast!

I'd be worried in a Traumahawk though, given its reputation. That's the downside of doing all your flying in benign, basic trainers like Archers and Sundowners.

There is nothing about a Tommy that would make me avoid slips. It's never been about a propensity to enter a spin, it's only about one's ability to recover from them. If you enter a spin in a slip...on final...I don't care what plane you're flying...it's not going to be pretty.

 

[flykelley]

Hi Gang
Slipping in a airplane is simple a blast. When I did my tailwheel training my CFI made sure I was proficient at doing slips. Man what a blast turning final at 900 AGL and having Geno tell me to put it down on the numbers. Foward slip all the way to the touchdown zone. I still love doing slips and of late have been praticing them in the Archer.

Merry Christmas Mike

 

[SkyHog]

Bah, all poppycock. Jesse is wrong.

Sorry man, it was just so weird to see everyone agree with you, I figured someone had to jump in and dispute it.

 

[jesse]

Bah, all poppycock. Jesse is wrong.

Sorry man, it was just so weird to see everyone agree with you, I figured someone had to jump in and dispute it.

It's rare.. But it does happen.

 

[flyersfan31]

I like the Tomahawk - one of these days I'm going to go rent one. I was more referring to my basic aviating skills having been dulled by the Archer-class trainers. Not much rudder needed, no bad stall habits, makes me feel less competent. I want to get my tailwheel endorsement so I have to fly something that actually requires rudder usage. Spin-training is on the agenda as well.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Bah,

Hey Nick,

Where did you get the "words" emoticon? I like it.

 

[SkyHog]

Hey Nick,

Where did you get the "words" emoticon? I like it.

Stolen shamelssly from the somethingawful forums.

 

[Richard]

Slips are a blast!

I'd be worried in a Traumahawk though, given its reputation. That's the downside of doing all your flying in benign, basic trainers like Archers and Sundowners.

Having >100 hours in the PA-38 I can say with all certainty that your fears are unfounded. They also spin (and recover) just fine.

They are like mo-peds though. Fun but don't let your friends see.

 

[poadeleted20]

They also spin (and recover) just fine.

There is sufficient evidence to question whether Tomahawks recover promptly from all spin modes. Google "john lowery tomahawk spin" to find out more.

 

[tonycondon]

i think nick makes an excellent point, since when does everyone agree with jesse!?

 

[flykelley]

How about this a foward slip while turning. My CFI started to teach me those but we only got to do them several times. Since I can't ask him about them has anyone ever done these? They sure felt weird to me and I never got real comtable doing them.

Regards Mike

 

[gibbons]

How about this a foward slip while turning. My CFI started to teach me those but we only got to do them several times. Since I can't ask him about them has anyone ever done these? They sure felt weird to me and I never got real comtable doing them.

Regards Mike

I do a forward slip all the way from downwind to short final almost every time I land the Extra. It's a great way to keep a tight pattern and see the touchdown point throughout the pattern.

 

[jesse]

How about this a foward slip while turning. My CFI started to teach me those but we only got to do them several times. Since I can't ask him about them has anyone ever done these? They sure felt weird to me and I never got real comtable doing them.

Regards Mike

In a 172 or Diamond I usually forward slip from downwind / base / to final. Makes for a nice tight pattern.

 

[tonycondon]

turning slips are required PTS manuevers for glider ratings. very effective way to lose alt, especially when coupled with airbrakes.

 

[flykelley]

turning slips are required PTS manuevers for glider ratings. very effective way to lose alt, especially when coupled with airbrakes.

Well that make more sense to me since my CFI was also a glider instructor. I have never had another instructor teach slips like that before.

Regards Mike

 

[tonycondon]

in my experience, most non glider guys dont even think about it. I know i didnt before flying gliders.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

In a 172 or Diamond I usually forward slip from downwind / base / to final. Makes for a nice tight pattern.

If I'm forward slipping in the turn all the way from downwind to touchdown for max drop, I still rock the wings (while keeping the nose down) once in the areas where the corners of a rectangular pattern would be to check for traffic, especially in water landings.

Visability is one reason why the squared pattern was delveloped, so variants should employ compensatory methods to help maintain full integrity of flight proceedures.

 

[jesse]

If I'm forward slipping in the turn all the way from downwind to touchdown for max drop, I still rock the wings (while keeping the nose down) once in the areas where the corners of a rectangular pattern would be to check for traffic, especially in water landings.

Visability is one reason why the squared pattern was delveloped, so variants should employ compensatory methods to help maintain full integrity of flight proceedures.

I really don't do much of these tight non standard patterns unless I'm at a controlled airport and let them know that I'm making it tight. I *always* pick up my wing and look at the final area before I cross into it no matter how I fly my pattern.

 

[tonycondon]

im of the opinion that if you wait until you are on base to check for traffic on final, it is too late. look for final traffic while you are on downwind and have more options to maneuver away from him.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

im of the opinion that if you wait until you are on base to check for traffic on final, it is too late. look for final traffic while you are on downwind and have more options to maneuver away from him.

The same goes for depending on a tower to clear traffic.
I've had them miss twice while turning onto final.

 

[jesse]

im of the opinion that if you wait until you are on base to check for traffic on final, it is too late. look for final traffic while you are on downwind and have more options to maneuver away from him.

Eh.. That makes sense. But it's still silly not to look. If there is conflicting traffic on final and I'm on base I can at least make an attempt. That attempt is a hell of a lot better than not looking. Chances are I can make a steep climbing turn to the left to avoid conflicting traffic on final.

 

[Henning]

Slips are a blast!

I'd be worried in a Traumahawk though, given its reputation. That's the downside of doing all your flying in benign, basic trainers like Archers and Sundowners.

What reputation does that plane have that would have you worried about slipping it? You need to stay away from the old women and men who talk like old women. There are some issues with the airframe in a fully developed spin, that's about it. When she breaks for a spin, she breaks solid, but while doing a slip to get down, there's no reason you should snap. You're putting the nose down and throwing the tail over to keep you from accellerating too much, not a high likelyhood of achieving stall. Remember, it's really hard to stall/spin a plane when it's pointed at the ground, you really have to work for it.

 

[Henning]

Where's Jesse when you need him....

Went up for some T&Gs today. very slight crosswind from the west, using runway 35. First 4 went pretty well, I was very happy with them.

It was time for the full stop, we got cleared to land as we were abeam the numbers, but tower nicely told us to get moving since there was a Citation coming in. turned to final, full flaps, engine to iddle, but still to high and too fast, CFI said to put in in a slip, but I had no experience performing them, so he slipped it down and gave me the plane back for touchdown... at least my touchdown was nice....

Next time I go up I plan to just practice doing slips...

They're no worries. Point nose down, put rudder to floor & maintain track line with opposite aileron. You do have experience slipping if you've done a crosswind landing. In this scenario you are just balancing the controls a bit differently because you are looking for a somewhat different (yet quite similar) result.

 

[Dudley Henriques]

Where's Jesse when you need him....

Went up for some T&Gs today. very slight crosswind from the west, using runway 35. First 4 went pretty well, I was very happy with them.

It was time for the full stop, we got cleared to land as we were abeam the numbers, but tower nicely told us to get moving since there was a Citation coming in. turned to final, full flaps, engine to iddle, but still to high and too fast, CFI said to put in in a slip, but I had no experience performing them, so he slipped it down and gave me the plane back for touchdown... at least my touchdown was nice....

Next time I go up I plan to just practice doing slips...

You'll enjoy doing slips.

Slip Tip

Not that you'll be entering aerobatic training as below but it applies equally to primary flying;

As an aerobatic instructor, one of the first things we do with a newbie starting out in acro is to break them of the habit of thinking in terms of coordinated flight and coordinated controls as always being applied control pressure in the same direction as in ball centered turn entries and exits.

Once you start thinking of coordination of controls as the right amount of control pressure applied by any control in the aircraft in any direction to the exact amount of pressure required to make the airplane do what you want it to do, you are well on the way to understaning slips and being able to perform them properly.

Have fun! )

 

[jsstevens]

in my experience, most non glider guys dont even think about it. I know i didnt before flying gliders.

My instructor taught these and I still think they're fun! Speaking of which I haven't practiced them in a while...

Anyway, his approach was always have more tools in your tool box. I've only used it a couple of times when asked to expidite by the tower. Of course I've flown what I thought was a normal pattern only to have the tower warn someone that I turned on "short base". Oh well.

John

 

[dmccormack]

I scanned through all the posts but didn't see a couple of things mentioned:

1) Check the POH for slip limitations. Many Cessna models limit slips to some period of time (30 seconds, usually). Some aren't approved for slips with full flaps.

2) Be sure you have adequate airspeed, and don't rely on the ASI -- in most small trainers there is only one static port and the airflow during a slip is disturbed.

First thing I look for when a student starts a slip is the nose being pushed down as the wings are banked.

 

[jesse]

This thread is old old old.

I scanned through all the posts but didn't see a couple of things mentioned:

1) Check the POH for slip limitations. Many Cessna models limit slips to some period of time (30 seconds, usually). Some aren't approved for slips with full flaps.

Very few, if any, actually prohibit it. It's not worth worrying about and there are plenty of threads discussing the reasons why.

2) Be sure you have adequate airspeed, and don't rely on the ASI -- in most small trainers there is only one static port and the airflow during a slip is disturbed.

As long as you let the nose fall--and don't try to force it up--you aren't going to stall (In a Cessna and every certified airplane I've flown)

The cool thing about a slipping turn in a 172 is the fact that it is VERY difficult to make it spin. If you stall in a slipping turn in a 172 you just start mushing with the nose bobbling some.

 

[docmirror]

Unporting fuel pickup can be an issue. Try to slip away from the tank in use(left tank draw - slip with right wing down).

When I transitioned to the Bonanza from many hours in the Citabria, my instructor didn't agree with my slip on final. The Bo is much slicker than the Citabria, and we came in kinda hot and a bit high. I had flaps out, but put it in a significant slip to loose more altitude. I asked him what was wrong with it, and the best he could come up with is 'it makes the pax uncomfortable'. Which is true, but we were on a training flight with no pax.

Good tool, sometimes underused. Nice thing about a slip, you can add or subtract quickly as needed, unlike flap deployment on final.

 

[dmccormack]

This thread is old old old.

Very few, if any, actually prohibit it. It's not worth worrying about and there are plenty of threads discussing the reasons why.
As long as you let the nose fall--and don't try to force it up--you aren't going to stall (In a Cessna and every certified airplane I've flown)

Just because it's been discussed before in another thread doesn't it mean it shouldn't be repeated.

What if the nose is allowed to "fall" and airspeed is at or below stall speed?

An airplane can stall in any attitude relative to the ground, falling nose or not. Air flowing past the wings below the stalling angle of attack keeps the airplane flying -- period.

If the POH recommends not exceeding some duration or even forbids slips, there is a reason -- from fuel un-porting to tail surface air flow disruption to inaccurate pitot-static system readings.

Whenever we ignore the POH recommendations, we step into test pilot shoes. Sorry, but I'll never suggest a student do that.

The cool thing about a slipping turn in a 172 is the fact that it is VERY difficult to make it spin. If you stall in a slipping turn in a 172 you just start mushing with the nose bobbling some.

Slipping stalls drop the high wing, which makes those stalls more benign. Skidding stalls drop the low wing, and it's pretty hard to keep it from rolling under.

 

[jesse]

Just because it's been discussed before in another thread doesn't it mean it shouldn't be repeated.

What if the nose is allowed to "fall" and airspeed is at or below stall speed?

An airplane can stall in any attitude relative to the ground, falling nose or not. Air flowing past the wings below the stalling angle of attack keeps the airplane flying -- period.

If the POH recommends not exceeding some duration or even forbids slips, there is a reason -- from fuel un-porting to tail surface air flow disruption to inaccurate pitot-static system readings.

Whenever we ignore the POH recommendations, we step into test pilot shoes. Sorry, but I'll never suggest a student do that.

You don't get it. Find me the POH that says its prohibited and I won't do it in that airplane. Good luck finding a 172 POH that says 'slips are prohibited'

Slipping stalls drop the high wing, which makes those stalls more benign. Skidding stalls drop the low wing, and it's pretty hard to keep it from rolling under.

Exactly. If I'm in a 172 and need to turn steep and get down fast I'm going to do a steep turning slip. I've never been able to get a 172 to do anything exciting in a slip.

The following configuration:
Full right rudder
Near full left aileron
Full aft elevator (to the stops)

and a 172 will generally just bob the nose and mush towards the ground. Nothing more--nothing less. Of course I can't say this for every pilot or every 172. The above statement is based on my experience trying it in a 172M, 172N, 172P, and 172R. I suggest pilots get to know their airplanes at safe altitudes.

 

[dmccormack]

You don't get it. Find me the POH that says its prohibited and I won't do it in that airplane. Good luck finding a 172 POH that says 'slips are prohibited'

My comments were not limited to 172s --pilots should read and heed the POH/AFM/Owners Manual for each airplane flown.

and a 172 will generally just bob the nose and mush towards the ground. Nothing more--nothing less. Of course I can't say this for every pilot or every 172. The above statement is based on my experience trying it in a 172M, 172N, 172P, and 172R.

Flying solo? Full gross?

172s, 205s, 206s, 182s -- All have familiar handling characteristics, and all will bite you on the posterior if you expect it to behave exactly the same aft loaded as it does forward and lightly loaded with one or two sitting in the front seats (which is the most usual situation).

 

[Flyfishingpilot]

I took slips for granted till I flew flap-less underpowered taildraggers. Nothing like a J3 or Champ to appreciate the full effect of this basic manoeuvre.

Incidently, both these planes will also teach everything you want to know about how the wind affects your plane.