Sloppy radio communications at night

[polaris]

I was doing touch-and-goes at my class D airport pretty late last night, around 11:30 p.m. - midnight. The tower had already closed.

In my 0.7 hours that I was up there, I only ran into two other airplanes. They were both sloppy on the radio. One was a jet and another was a Caravan. Both surprised me with their lack of radio communications.

First, the jet. By chance, I saw the jet taxiing while I was on the upwind. I called my crosswind and downwind on the CTAF. Jet was at the hold short line when I called my downwind. Not a peep. As I announced my base turn, I had to ask, "Jet holding short, are you on?" and he was like "???? Oh yeah, yeah, we are taking the runway" quite oblivious (or intentionally ignoring) the fact that I was on my base leg. That wasn't that big of a deal because I slowed it down and he got out.

But then the Caravan. I announced my downwind, and I announced my base, and I announced turning base to final on runway 16. As I am about 3/4 miles out to runway 16, I hear for the first time: "CTAF, Caravan is 4 mile final runway 34." A little more heads up would've been nice, assuming, that is, you are actually 4 miles out. About 30 seconds later, I start seeing the landing lights of opposing traffic coming up real fast.

"Caravan on final to 34, say position," I say. "2 miles out." Yeah, bull****, buddy. You did not just travel 2 miles in 30 seconds. You are also not 2 miles out. You are SHORT FINAL.

I tell him I AM short final for 16. No response. But I see the Caravan doing massive S turns on final, which I interpret as him realizing I am in his way. I land and I get off at the first turn off, and literally just as I am ready to key the mic to tell him that I am off the runway, I see him over the numbers.

Is this typical of late night operations? People tired? Assuming no one is using the airport? Ready to get home?

 

[stratobee]

I have noticed this as well. It gets sloppy. And as you observed, it seems to get worse with commercial and/or professionals behind the yoke. Maybe they're jaded after doing it night in night out or maybe they relax unduly when they get out of the IFR system.

 

[Ted]

Or they're just not used to anyone being there at that hour. At my old Class D, you wouldn't expect anyone there at 11:30.

 

[polaris]

Or they're just not used to anyone being there at that hour. At my old Class D, you wouldn't expect anyone there at 11:30.

Yeah, but "I didn't expect anyone there" is a horrible excuse.

Taking my dinky Cessna out of the equation... If the radio-silent Jet happened to be taking Runway 16 at the exact same time the radio-silent Caravan was checking in "4 miles out" to Runway 34 (when he was actually ONE mile final to Runway 34), things would have turned hairy pretty quickly.

 

[Bill Watson]

Or they're just not used to anyone being there at that hour. At my old Class D, you wouldn't expect anyone there at 11:30.

Yes, that.

I'm going to use this as a warning to myself to work the CTAF at my home port when doing late night (or any hour) operations. Being private, it's certainly not a Class D but I've fallen into the habit of not doing the proper announcements soon enough because "I KNOW no one is operating there right now". Complacency kills.

Thanks

 

[eman1200]

on my solo XC, 2nd stop, I was making all my radio calls, starting 10 miles out. there was a helicopter near the field as well as a twin further out from me, all were making regular calls. I clearly called out each leg, including base to final. the twin started asking "where's that other guy in the pattern, what's your location". I wasn't ****ed or anything, but 1) I started questioning myself as to whether I was making the correct calls (the video I watched later clearly showed I made ALL my calls) and 2) at that point (just coming up to the numbers) I was in AVIATE mode, not re-communicate mode. of course when I landed I gave another position report, but it just goes to show how quickly something could 'go bad'.

now you're situation just sounds like they were above making the correct calls.

 

[lr60plt]

If the tower is closed they aren't required to say a word to you. Seems kind of ridiculous that you are getting bent out of shape about a jet that didn't announce he was going to taxi to the runway.

All you can do is watch out for yourself and try to do what's safe...otherwise with situations like these your just going to have to deal with it. Its going to be different everywhere you go.

 

[polaris]

If the tower is closed they aren't required to say a word to you. Seems kind of ridiculous that you are getting bent out of shape about a jet that didn't announce he was going to taxi to the runway

If you read what I wrote, I think I am "bent out of shape" about the Caravan who called 4 miles out to an opposite direction runway when he was actually 1 mile out, which gave me the false impression that I had time to land with time to spare. It is pretty scary to look up during the flare and seeing another plane coming straight at you doing massive S turns on short final.

 

[jesse]

I was doing touch-and-goes at my class D airport pretty late last night, around 11:30 p.m. - midnight. The tower had already closed.

In my 0.7 hours that I was up there, I only ran into two other airplanes. They were both sloppy on the radio. One was a jet and another was a Caravan. Both surprised me with their lack of radio communications.

First, the jet. By chance, I saw the jet taxiing while I was on the upwind. I called my crosswind and downwind on the CTAF. Jet was at the hold short line when I called my downwind. Not a peep. As I announced my base turn, I had to ask, "Jet holding short, are you on?" and he was like "???? Oh yeah, yeah, we are taking the runway" quite oblivious (or intentionally ignoring) the fact that I was on my base leg. That wasn't that big of a deal because I slowed it down and he got out.

But then the Caravan. I announced my downwind, and I announced my base, and I announced turning base to final on runway 16. As I am about 3/4 miles out to runway 16, I hear for the first time: "CTAF, Caravan is 4 mile final runway 34." A little more heads up would've been nice, assuming, that is, you are actually 4 miles out. About 30 seconds later, I start seeing the landing lights of opposing traffic coming up real fast.

"Caravan on final to 34, say position," I say. "2 miles out." Yeah, bull****, buddy. You did not just travel 2 miles in 30 seconds. You are also not 2 miles out. You are SHORT FINAL.

I tell him I AM short final for 16. No response. But I see the Caravan doing massive S turns on final, which I interpret as him realizing I am in his way. I land and I get off at the first turn off, and literally just as I am ready to key the mic to tell him that I am off the runway, I see him over the numbers.

Is this typical of late night operations? People tired? Assuming no one is using the airport? Ready to get home?

For what it's worth I stay the hell out of the way of airplanes that have a job to do while I'm just flying around. Why play chicken with a Caravan when you can delay you can extend your flying and all is well again?

 

[lr60plt]

If you read what I wrote, I am "bent out of shape" about the Caravan who called 4 miles out to a opposite direction runway when he was actually a mile out, and I was already on short final to the runway I was announcing all along.

I read that as well and also isn't that bad.

 

[polaris]

For what it's worth I stay the hell out of the way of airplanes that have a job to do while I'm just flying around. Why play chicken with a Caravan when you can delay you can extend your flying and all is well again?

Good point. And I would have gone around if he had actually checked in 1 mile final. I thought I could land because he said 4 mile final. He was clearly not 4 mile final.

 

[Fearless Tower]

If the tower is closed they aren't required to say a word to you. Seems kind of ridiculous that you are getting bent out of shape about a jet that didn't announce he was going to taxi to the runway.

I don't know that the OP's issue was so much about talking on the radio as it was that they seemed oblivious to what was going on around them. You don't have to talk, but you do need to have some SA on what is going on outside of your own cockpit.

 

[lr60plt]

I don't know that the OP's issue was so much about talking on the radio as it was that they seemed oblivious to what was going on around them. You don't have to talk, but you do need to have some SA on what is going on outside of your own cockpit.

Very true, however what we are reading here is the side of a story from some guy flying around in a 172 making a bunch of radio calls. I'm not convinced that either airplane didn't know what was going on.

-The Jet obviously had their avionics on since taxi, their odd response was probably because they were surprised that some 172 is asking them "Jet...ARE YOU ON?!!?" at a class E/G airport.

-The Caravan had been planning on that long straight in final for as long as he was heading to the airport. Whether he was VFR or IFR he was probably going D-to for a while if it was a 4 mile final. If it was a quiet night...he too was probably listening for a bit and surprised that Mr. Radio Call was going to keep it tight instead of extending for 30 seconds to let the faster airplane land and get on its way...avoiding this entire thing.

 

[rpadula]

Or they're just not used to anyone being there at that hour. At my old Class D, you wouldn't expect anyone there at 11:30.

Yep. The only traffic going in and out of my Class D field that time of night are the Labquest planes.

Yeah, but "I didn't expect anyone there" is a horrible excuse.

You are correct. However, ...

Taking my dinky Cessna out of the equation... If the radio-silent Jet happened to be taking Runway 16 at the exact same time the radio-silent Caravan was checking in "4 miles out" to Runway 34 (when he was actually ONE mile final to Runway 34), things would have turned hairy pretty quickly.

Since both of these were likely working flights, both were probably on IFR flight plans. And the jet on the ground would have been notified and held on the ground by Clearance Delivery until the Caravan landed.

 

[rpadula]

For what it's worth I stay the hell out of the way of airplanes that have a job to do while I'm just flying around. Why play chicken with a Caravan when you can delay you can extend your flying and all is well again?

And so did I.

Good point. And I would have gone around if he had actually checked in 1 mile final. I thought I could land because he said 4 mile final. He was clearly not 4 mile final.

Question: when you determined the Caravan was actually closer and forced to do S-turns, why did you continue with your approach and landing?

 

[coma24]

Excellent post. This is a great reminder to me that being at a towered airport outside of operating hours has some significant risks compared to standard non-towered ops, the reasons for which are obvious when you think about 'em. I had just never thought about it until reading your post.

Sounds like these guys were phoning it in and operating as if they were the only ones who were there.

They were still in the wrong, but it's not hard to imagine the mindset.

I also commend you for staying the course and landing before the Caravan. Having him at the point where he's doing S-turns definitely strengthened your point versus you doing an early going around and letting him in first. Just as long as you had eyes on him and were prepared to go around if he wasn't turning and spacing became an issue, then I think you did ok by continuing with the operation, rather than calling an early, and overly conservative go-around.

It's not about getting down first, per se, but rather it hammered home the point. Hopefully the Caravan did some thinking during those S-turns or after the landing.

 

[MAKG1]

Good point. And I would have gone around if he had actually checked in 1 mile final. I thought I could land because he said 4 mile final. He was clearly not 4 mile final.

I wouldn't push that. Those aircraft descend at twice your airspeed. 4 mile final is a bit close for that -- only about two minutes for you to get down and off the runway. That's almost exactly the amount of time I need to get down from TPA -- from downwind abeam the numbers.

And if he's on final and you aren't, he has the right of way.

You'd get away with that for a 172 on 4 mile final, without much trouble (unless he was approaching really fast).

 

[polaris]

And if he's on final and you aren't, he has the right of way.

I was on a 3/4 mile final to runway 16 when I heard "Caravan is 4 mile final runway 34." About 30 seconds later, he claimed he was 2 mile final.

 

[polaris]

Question: when you determined the Caravan was actually closer and forced to do S-turns, why did you continue with your approach and landing?

Because I was over the numbers and approaching my flare when I saw that he was about 3/4 mile final doing S-turns. I considered going around, but I was afraid that, by the time I regained enough speed, he would be right on top of me. To be frank, from the way he was communicating, I was afraid of him going-around too and not following proper procedures and making a left turn or something. Also, I couldn't tell if he was making S-turns or going around and making way to the right (or left, because he was going back and forth). I guess I should have more faith in other pilots. I was also not comfortable about the thought of making a sharp right turn at 100 AGL going 65 kts to account for his potential error.

 

[flyingmoose]

Very true, however what we are reading here is the side of a story from some guy flying around in a 172 making a bunch of radio calls. I'm not convinced that either airplane didn't know what was going on.

-The Jet obviously had their avionics on since taxi, their odd response was probably because they were surprised that some 172 is asking them "Jet...ARE YOU ON?!!?" at a class E/G airport.

-The Caravan had been planning on that long straight in final for as long as he was heading to the airport. Whether he was VFR or IFR he was probably going D-to for a while if it was a 4 mile final. If it was a quiet night...he too was probably listening for a bit and surprised that Mr. Radio Call was going to keep it tight instead of extending for 30 seconds to let the faster airplane land and get on its way...avoiding this entire thing.

Agreed

This is a great reminder to me that being at a towered airport outside of operating hours has some significant risks compared to standard non-towered ops, the reasons for which are obvious when you think about 'em.

What are those risks that are not at non-towered fields?

They were still in the wrong

Why are they wrong, other than the OP thinks so?

I also commend you for staying the course and landing before the Caravan. Having him at the point where he's doing S-turns definitely strengthened your point versus you doing an early going around and letting him in first.

So if both people decide to stand their ground because they both think they are right, now we are playing chicken...not a good idea. Sounds like the caravan decided to be the bigger player.

It's not about getting down first, per se, but rather it hammered home the point. Hopefully the Caravan did some thinking during those S-turns or after the landing.

Not likely, what is the point that needs to be hammered home? "I was making more radio calls than you, so I get right-of-way?" These things happen when you fly a lot, situation come up and we deal with them, one way or another.

I was on a 3/4 mile final to runway 16 when I heard "Caravan is 4 mile final runway 34." About 30 seconds later, he claimed he was 2 mile final.

Def possible in a caravan.

 

[polaris]

-The Jet obviously had their avionics on since taxi, their odd response was probably because they were surprised that some 172 is asking them "Jet...ARE YOU ON?!!?" at a class E/G airport.

I agree that faster planes have priority. But I don't think slower planes have to bow down to them. It's common knowledge that extending my downwind for that runway gets me dangerously close to the Bravo. I think I have the right to know if the jet plans on taking off right away or is waiting for an IFR release.

Besides, the jet wasn't even the issue... he was appreciative of the heads up.

 

[jesse]

Very true, however what we are reading here is the side of a story from some guy flying around in a 172 making a bunch of radio calls. I'm not convinced that either airplane didn't know what was going on.

-The Jet obviously had their avionics on since taxi, their odd response was probably because they were surprised that some 172 is asking them "Jet...ARE YOU ON?!!?" at a class E/G airport.

-The Caravan had been planning on that long straight in final for as long as he was heading to the airport. Whether he was VFR or IFR he was probably going D-to for a while if it was a 4 mile final. If it was a quiet night...he too was probably listening for a bit and surprised that Mr. Radio Call was going to keep it tight instead of extending for 30 seconds to let the faster airplane land and get on its way...avoiding this entire thing.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. I'm sure both professionals had a decent idea of what was going on and didn't see the need to be sending transmissions every 5 seconds.

 

[charris911]

Excellent post. This is a great reminder to me that being at a towered airport outside of operating hours has some significant risks compared to standard non-towered ops, the reasons for which are obvious when you think about 'em. I had just never thought about it until reading your post.

Sounds like these guys were phoning it in and operating as if they were the only ones who were there.

They were still in the wrong, but it's not hard to imagine the mindset.

I also commend you for staying the course and landing before the Caravan. Having him at the point where he's doing S-turns definitely strengthened your point versus you doing an early going around and letting him in first. Just as long as you had eyes on him and were prepared to go around if he wasn't turning and spacing became an issue, then I think you did ok by continuing with the operation, rather than calling an early, and overly conservative go-around.

It's not about getting down first, per se, but rather it hammered home the point. Hopefully the Caravan did some thinking during those S-turns or after the landing.

Really??? not "letting him in first", and "hammered home the point"??? No thanks! I am not a radio cop and I dont play one with my life.

 

[rpadula]

Because I was over the numbers and approaching my flare when I saw that he was about 3/4 mile final doing S-turns. I considered going around, but I was afraid that, by the time I regained enough speed, he would be right on top of me. To be frank, from the way he was communicating, I was afraid of him going-around too and not following proper procedures and making a left turn or something. Also, I couldn't tell if he was making S-turns or going around and making way to the right (or left, because he was going back and forth). I guess I should have more faith in other pilots. I was also not comfortable about the thought of making a sharp right turn at 100 AGL going 65 kts to account for his potential error.

Got it. I couldn't picture where exactly you were when you noticed that.

You definitely had the right of way, and over the numbers, I would have landed too and take advantage of our slow landing speed and short stopping distance (assuming you were in a 172 or such).

 

[polaris]

Def possible in a caravan.

Really? 2 miles in 30 seconds?
4 miles in 60 seconds?
240 miles per hour?

Caravans have an approach speed of 240 mph?

 

[polaris]

FYI, a Caravan's flaps-up approach speed is 95-110 kts. Flaps down, 75-85 kts. I increased my approach speed to 90 kts after I heard he was 4 miles out. So the math doesn't add up that we ended up right on top of each other.

He was not 4 miles out. He was much closer. End of thread.

 

[RussR]

I think I have the right to know if the jet plans on taking off right away or is waiting for an IFR release.

Well, you don't have a "right" to know anything, but taking it in the more broader sense, when's the last time you made a transmission from the hold short line, that you were going to be holding for a while? Where is that in the AIM? It's not, so there's no expectation that anybody would make such a transmission.

One thing I do want to stress here in the same vein as this thread is to fly your own airplane. It's easy to get distracted by other traffic. Just yesterday I was with a student doing pattern work, and about 3 laps in a row, someone took the runway for takeoff while we were on base (it was a small jet, a TBM-850, and a Cub). Now, that's not that close, and it all worked out, but I had to stress to him to "fly your own airplane", as a couple times he overshot final, or got slow, etc. Don't let distractions cause you to lose control. Keep aware of the other aircraft, and react if necessary, but otherwise fly like you always do.

 

[Ted]

Yeah, but "I didn't expect anyone there" is a horrible excuse.

Taking my dinky Cessna out of the equation... If the radio-silent Jet happened to be taking Runway 16 at the exact same time the radio-silent Caravan was checking in "4 miles out" to Runway 34 (when he was actually ONE mile final to Runway 34), things would have turned hairy pretty quickly.

I never said it was an excuse, just an expectation. Expectations can cause problems.

However, the jet would likely also check final before taking the runway and see the Caravan's landing lights, then stop. Even if he didn't, the Caravan would certainly see the jet and could go around.

Now I do agree with you that it's a procedural failure. My habit is to make my calls normally regardless of hour, always be IFR or flight following, etc. But I'll admit that at night, radio since is beautiful. Ernest Gann described this very eloquently in one of his writings.

 

[rpadula]

I also commend you for staying the course and landing before the Caravan. Having him at the point where he's doing S-turns definitely strengthened your point versus you doing an early going around and letting him in first. Just as long as you had eyes on him and were prepared to go around if he wasn't turning and spacing became an issue, then I think you did ok by continuing with the operation, rather than calling an early, and overly conservative go-around.

It's not about getting down first, per se, but rather it hammered home the point. Hopefully the Caravan did some thinking during those S-turns or after the landing.

Playing chicken with a turboprop 3x your size to prove a point doesn't seem too smart.

 

[polaris]

Well, you don't have a "right" to know anything, but taking it in the more broader sense, when's the last time you made a transmission from the hold short line, that you were going to be holding for a while? Where is that in the AIM? It's not, so there's no expectation that anybody would make such a transmission.

I agree. I was just saying that I had the right to ask him, because the other poster was talking like I shouldn't have been asking to see if the jet was on the frequency because the dinky Cessna can't be proactive and ask.

 

[flyingmoose]

Really? 2 miles in 30 seconds?
4 miles in 60 seconds?
240 miles per hour?

Caravans have an approach speed of 240 mph?

Well the difference in perception of 4 miles or 2 miles is not an exact science always as im sure you didn't have you stopwatch out making an exact time note. So I can do 150-160kts in the Caravan "To the threshold!" I don't think they were, only an example. That was my point.

Either way, maybe you were "wronged" per say, and maybe they were sloppy, you all made it work.

 

[rsleeds]

If you read what I wrote, I think I am "bent out of shape" about the Caravan who called 4 miles out to an opposite direction runway when he was actually 1 mile out, which gave me the false impression that I had time to land with time to spare. It is pretty scary to look up during the flare and seeing another plane coming straight at you doing massive S turns on short final.

I doubt he was actually 1 mile out if you had time to flare, land, and clear the runway before he was "over the numbers" - S turns or not. Plus if he was doing S turns, he knew you where there and gave you your right of way.

 

[jhausch]

It sounds like the jet and Caravan almost were a self-correcting problem....

 

[ClimbnSink]

It sounds like the jet and Caravan almost were a self-correcting problem....

Nah cause if they took each other out radio cop would still be flying his high horse.

 

[lr60plt]

...fly your own airplane...

This.

/Thread

 

[jesse]

It's not like you can't see each other. I fly my Flybaby quite often with no radio. I'm sure some radio cops get really upset and cuss me up and down but perhaps if they spent more time just looking outside and less time obsessing over their radio and traffic display they'd realize there isn't a problem.

 

[Av8er]

This seems to be a never ending complaint, especially from low time pilots and students. The main thing here is to keep your head outside, keep situationaly aware, communicate and make smart decisions. All these were done, except with an attitude.

The jet never entered the runway without communicating. So, what did he do wrong? Your checking if he was on frequency was the correct thing to do and he may have sped up his departure because of this. Either way there was absolutely no issue.

The Caravan on final may have just changed to advisory frequency, may have been on an IFR approach and did announce a 4.0 mile final. He could have easily been doing 120 knots plus, putting him at 2 miles a minute airspeed and 2.99 miles out after the 30 seconds passed. GPS distance is not from the threshold, but somewhere in the middle of the airport putting him closer than you expected to the runway. He did communicate, slowed down as necessary and dealt with the situation with out any obvious complaint. Doubt he had any problem with the situation.

What is the big rant about. This is no different than people going on about downwind and straight in approaches. These are all done, should be practiced and legal. Be professional and deal with it.

George

 

[jesse]

This seems to be a never ending complaint, especially from low time pilots and students. The main thing here is to keep your head outside, keep situationaly aware, communicate and make smart decisions. All these were done, except with an attitude.

The jet never entered the runway without communicating. So, what did he do wrong? Your checking if he was on frequency was the correct thing to do and he may have sped up his departure because of this. Either way there was absolutely no issue.

The Caravan on final may have just changed to advisory frequency, may have been on an IFR approach and did announce a 4.0 mile final. He could have easily been doing 120 knots plus, putting him at 2 miles a minute airspeed and 2.99 miles out after the 30 seconds passed. GPS distance is not from the threshold, but somewhere in the middle of the airport putting him closer than you expected to the runway. He did communicate, slowed down as necessary and dealt with the situation with out any obvious complaint. Doubt he had any problem with the situation.

What is the big rant about. This is no different than people going on about downwind and straight in approaches. These are all done, should be practiced and legal. Be professional and deal with it.

George

Exactly. Just chill-lax and don't run into other airplanes. It's really that easy.

 

[somorris]

Hi Polaris.

It sounds to me like everything worked out about right.

 

[polaris]

I don't know why people keep reviving this thread to attack me. But I will add a few things in my defense:

1. My post wasn't supposed to be a rant. But I can see how it may have come off as one. Next time, I will be less argumentative. Can we drop this now?

2. I don't have 10,000 hours, but I am by no means a low-time pilot. I am also not a radio cop. I don't give a crap what you say or don't say on the radio, as long as it doesn't affect me. I was a little nervous here, so one could argue that it did affect me. That's why I made this thread. Was it appropriate for me to be nervous? Probably not, according to you guys. OK, let's drop it then. I just thought a little more communication would have been nice when on a collision course with another aircraft. That's it.