Simulator time worth it??

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by benyflyguy, Sep 30, 2018.

  1. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,245
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    i broke my leg the week of my checkride. Argh!!! I’m at peace with it. Lord works in strange ways. No weight bearing for one month then “some weight bearing” after that per ortho. So I’m three weeks in and getting itchy to fly. No plans on taking a real plane up until full weight bearing and I go with with instructor to make sure I have no issues with full right rudder.
    There are 2 Redbird sims “near me”. One about 30 min that is non motion. One is about 45 min away that is full motion. Is it worth the time to head up and do a bit of flying just to stay proficient with my scan and work on some approaches, etc??? I’d have to have my wife drive me there as I’m not driving. Using crutches. It’s a real party.
     
  2. simtech

    simtech Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,361
    Location:
    mississippi
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Simtech
    Why not, if nothing else it will be fun. And for instrument flying heck yeah it's worth it! I'd be inclined to go the cheaper non motion. Motion doesn't add much value as far as I'm concerned. With a good visual you will get motion sensations.
     
    benyflyguy likes this.
  3. Challenged

    Challenged Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,577
    Location:
    Louisiana
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Challenged
    Sucks man, sorry :( Some sim time does seem like a good middle ground to help keep your head wrapped around aviation as much as you can during your downtime.
     
    benyflyguy likes this.
  4. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,834
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bob Gardner
    Motion is not worth the extra effort/cost. When I operated a non-motion AST-300 I had students almost lose their cookies. When you really get your head into the scanning game the instruments are far more important than physocal sensations (which can be disorienting).

    Bob
     
    Sundancer and benyflyguy like this.
  5. Possum

    Possum Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2014
    Messages:
    153
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Frank
    benyflyguy likes this.
  6. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    8,429
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    If they almost lost their cookies in a non-motion sim, they’re sure to lose them when they get into the real airplane.
     
    benyflyguy likes this.
  7. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,245
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    He got his license around the same time I did. I always think about a lot of the poor decisions he made and pressures he had when thinking about go vs no go. One of the reasons I started working on my IFR after he went down. Got away from flying when life happened to change. But when I got back to flying last year..IFR training was the first thing on my mind.
    On paper I always understood why he went down. But never in the flesh, until One of my early lessons for IFR was low ceilings and IMC. I remember I was in the soup no hood. So distraction of actually looking out. I was heading to my first waypoint climbing out after initial turn. My instructor leans over and calmly says..”so do you want to bank at 60deg to the right??” Sobering. Instantly I understood that without the proper training Attempting to fly by feel in hard IMC will get you killed in minutes. It was probably one of my first two lessons.
     
  8. labbadabba

    labbadabba Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2014
    Messages:
    2,187
    Location:
    Lawrence, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    labbadabba
    Yes. You can do a lot of things in the sim that you wouldn't want to do in a plane. I logged about 8 hours of sim time for my IR.
     
  9. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,879
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    I’m with the others in the “motion isn’t worth it” camp...it’s all about scan.

    I also agree that it’s something you should do to keep your skills sharp until you can fly again.
     
  10. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,245
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    Plus don’t they fail things more realistically. I’ve never had a vacuum failure but fairly certain they don’t just go blank when they do fail.
    I called the closest one, non motion and waiting to hear back from a cfi.
     
  11. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    8,720
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    Yes it’s valuable.
     
  12. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou Final Approach

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5,071
    Location:
    TX - the friendliest state
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lou
    Short answer: Yes, worth it.

    Medium answer: I'd tend to agree with the majority here that a motion sim isn't gonna help much for shooting approaches in IMC (unless you like getting tossed around on purpose) to stay proficient.

    An answer that many will shoot down instantly: if proficiency is what you're after, why even leave your house if it's such a pain (pun intended) to get out? (been there, been on crutches for weeks twice already, no fun!)
    You can put FSX on your home PC, dust off the old joystick and see how bad it is if you have to do everything with the mouse. Or you can go farther and for the price of a few lessons in the school's sim, you can add a yoke, radio panel and switch panel to make it easier to control (and more realistic) and be able to efficiently (and proficiently) control the simulated aircraft.
    Naturally, you cannot log this sim flying but it keeps you proficient anyway. And many home sims are far more advanced than many school sims too. :D
    Having a home sim isn't exactly the worst thing in the world (contrary to popular belief). You can practice a trip before you go on it in real life. You can learn different aircraft and avionics before setting foot in an expensive plane where you pay for every second. :) You can also get some "flying" in during the bad months of the year when you can't go up due to wx.

    Hope your leg heals soon so that you can go fly for real!
     
  13. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,245
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    Rh
    Thanks. Funny thing is I have FSX on a decent cpu with the radio set up, sayitek yoke, throttle body. Takes awhile to load which is no big deal but just seems hard to use. I set the weather low. But can’t seem to figure out how to use the avionics. Seems impossible to trim. Maybe I have to try a few different planes.
    Can’t seem to get the 747 to take off at home home base either. Lol.
     
  14. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou Final Approach

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5,071
    Location:
    TX - the friendliest state
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lou
    There's your problem! :D
     
  15. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    10,807
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    eman1200
    Can u fly with a friend? I thoroughly enjoy sitting right seat, enjoying the view and maybe occasionally working the radio.
     
  16. MIFlyer

    MIFlyer Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    769
    Location:
    Mercer Island, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MIFlyer
    potentially you could safety pilot. would keep you in the game and help get your friend's current
     
  17. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,245
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    Not a bad idea in a couple of weeks. But right now I can’t even get into the plane!! Right leg I keep in an immobilizer. But got cleared to toe touch and bend as tolerated. Still on two crutches. It’s leaps and bounds better. But our plane comes out of annual and one of the partners will want to fly this weekend. Might try to get into the right seat with seat back.
     
  18. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    2,689
    Location:
    NorthEast Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc
    As I understand it, the advantage of a simulator for IR training is that you can do lots of approaches and scenarios in a short amount of time.
     
    SbestCFII likes this.
  19. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    8,720
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    That plus you can pause, reset, brief and do over as many times as you want. I had trouble visualizing holds so instead of wasting time/money in a 172, we worked in the sim.
     
  20. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2017
    Messages:
    216
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ and Ensenada, Mexico
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    rgbeard
    I broke my ankle during my IFR training. I was run over by a semi truck.

    I maxxed out my time allowed in the Sim and found it to be valuable.
     
  21. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,245
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    Ugh. Trying to get ppl to take money is hard!!!

    So I called the closer sim and spoke to someone a week ago. Left a message explaining what I was looking for. The told me somonene will call. I cb wed and told oh yeah we have your message. Cfii is up now and will call you wed night. STUGATS!!
    Now I’m calling the further one away. Ugh.

    Is it that they realize I’m probably not going to be a long term student and not a big revenue for them?? Can’t imagine they are putting a ton of time on the sim they have.
     
  22. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,955
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Well, depends on the sim though. We’ve got a guy in our program who gets horribly sick in the sim. Does great in the aircraft but hates the sim. Even the sim operators (Metro Aviation) have Dramamine and electric watches that are given out to pilots because it’s so common. These are guys with thousands of hours and have no issues in the real aircraft but the visuals in the sim, mess them up big time.

    Done both motion and non-motion sims for work. Obviously they have their benefits but it’s not really something I look forward to. After a few hours in them, the enjoyment is lost and it just becomes a work related formality.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  23. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    Messages:
    4,469
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jsstevens
    I worked on a F-5 sim program in the mid 1980's. It had no motion base, just a seat shaker. It did have 120 degree dome visuals. They established early on that the first sim ride (for pilots-mostly fighter pilots) was 20 minutes max. As it was explained to me, motion sickness is caused by the brain perceiving a difference in inner-ear and visual inputs. And for these pilots, that was the absence on inner ear motion cues. After about three progressively longer an more agile sim sessions, they adapted.

    Just as an input.
    John
     
    Velocity173 and benyflyguy like this.
  24. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    7,694
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    Are you in NH?
     
  25. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,245
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    northeast PA
     
    PaulS likes this.
  26. olasek

    olasek Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,613
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    olasek
    I use Garmin G1000 PC Trainer - it is a great procedural simulator and helps you sharpen your G1000 skills at home on your PC. However anytime I use it I marvel why no one added a real aircraft feel to this setup, why wouldn't it 'fly' as say Cirrus or any other aircraft that is G1000 capable, it would then become a true great simulator. I have no good answer for that, maybe some other day ...
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
  27. Banjo33

    Banjo33 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2011
    Messages:
    735
    Location:
    MS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Banjo33
    Just like the plane, determine pitch/power/configuration and trim settings for your favorite sim aircraft for enroute and approach profiles. For instance, I prefer to use the FSX Baron as it most closely resembles my Twinkie. I know that -1.9 deg trim and 20” will give me 160kts in cruise. 15” and 2.8 deg trim gets me on the approach. Gear down and app flaps will then give me 600 fpm rate of descent. I set those parameters and can focus on reading the approach plate while the airplane settles right into the desired profile. Good at-home practice when I can’t get to the airport or have a trip coming up and I need a little steam gauge warm up.
     
  28. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    18,382
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331

    For IFR, heck yeah.
     
  29. Sundancer

    Sundancer En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Messages:
    2,544
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sundog
    I did a session in a Redbird a while back, mostly out of curiosity - we turned off the motion after a bit, as it's not very realistic, and kinda jerky. The instrument panel was basically "virtual", as well, and not too convincing. The value lay in having the CFII there with me, going over technique and stuff, and, well, instructing.

    Otherwise, my X-Plane sim at home is at least as valuable for IFR practice.
     
  30. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    18,382
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    +1 on turning off the motion.
     
  31. simtech

    simtech Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,361
    Location:
    mississippi
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Simtech
    There is a reason AF UPT doesn't have motion sims anymore. The cost to maintain isnt worth it and adds nothing. The only motion the T-6a SIM has is the dynamic seat. And most of the time that too is turned off. That system cost way too much and breaks all the time just to have the seat thump.
     
  32. mryan75

    mryan75 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2014
    Messages:
    483
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mryan75
    Buy a home PC and P3D. It's every bit as useful as an IFR training tool. I fly approaches and do partial panel in my PJs.
     
  33. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,245
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    Finally got on a sim today. Was Redbird without movement. Which was fine without movement.
    While it was nice to get the sound and work on the scan in familiar airspace (at least radio wise)
    did take off in Vmc then 10 min of getting used to level flight, turns etc. then he took me to a VOR approach that I wanted to practice that had a procedure turn.

    If you can keep that thing straight and level and still manage a tricky approach you’ve done good!! I found the controls to be sensitive to input but just couldn’t get trimmed for level flight. Trim was excessively sensitive for me (he even warned me about it)The good is that you need to really keep to the scan due to rapid altitude changes.
    Understanding it’s limitations, I had fun and learned a few things. Always good to have another set of eyes look at what you are doing. Will do again. certainly not a great substitute for the real thing but it did have me sweating a bit which I liked.
     
    simtech likes this.
  34. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    15,819
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    The only sim with motion that is usually available for the small fry, barring some ancient Link thing is the Redbird which has an absolutely abhorrent flight model and its simulation of the G1000 is so bad as to be counter productive.

    For basic instrument work your desktop thing even as archaic as the old ATC 610 or the newer computer things (like Touch Trainer or Elite) would be more than adequate. The "MOTION" in the Redbird and the Link doesn't border on reality either.
     
  35. SbestCFII

    SbestCFII Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    695
    Location:
    NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CFII Scott
    23E8BF76-93EE-4BAE-893B-3EC29DC2625A.png Repetitive procedure practice on a sim is cheaper and faster than repeating the ILS at KRWI 6 times in a row. I see the usefulness, but I do all the training in the plane. The one thing I found rewarding with 20 hours on a ATC610 was getting an almost perfect plotter track before flightaware, google earth and tablet apps. The nice thing about the 610 was that you couldn’t “cheat peek”. It was all Instrument, no display. This was all you had...
     
  36. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,928
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    Even the fighters have gone away from full motion.

    At Oceana, all of the Hornet sims are fixed. The old F-14 sims were full motion, but they sucked apparently.
     
  37. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,928
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    That’s exactly what I have always hated about Redbirds. They are somehow FAA approved training devices, but the old versions of MS Flight Sim were far more realistic.
     
  38. Cooter

    Cooter Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2015
    Messages:
    2,158
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cooter
    I never saw a motion sim for the F-18 or F-14. The only one I’ve seen was in the T-2.
     
  39. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,928
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    I don’t think they ever made a motion sim for the F-18.

    The Tomcat sims have long been removed apparently, but at Oceana, you can see the room where they used to be. It has the huge/high ceiling and the upper level where you walked out on a ramp to get into them, just like at the airline Level D sim facilities.

    The sim guys were telling me they were always broken.
     
  40. Cooter

    Cooter Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2015
    Messages:
    2,158
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cooter
    They must’ve been gone before my time. We had a huge room like that with the instructor console upstairs but there was no motion. There were two sim types in my time there, one with cockpits in separate rooms, and one with an intact cockpit. The one with the full cockpit didn’t work as well.

    I don’t even know how you’d do the visuals on a motion sim with a bubble canopy. Motion works well for level flying with small changes, but not for maneuvering like in a fighter.