SI for misdiagnosis of Bipolar Disorder

Hey Doc, you’re right. But with the faa, the world and the DSM catching up… don’t matter. THAT is the “POA relevant” problem.

Insofar as a ATP not knowing better… ain’t as obvious as it seems. Most career pilot atp’s trust their unions, who miserably let them down. Ain’t going to a health care professional without fear of unreasonable faa action how it’s supposed to work? Seems amateur cynics (who are extremely successful) have a better handle on the situation. Not how it’s supposed to work.
 
While Doc Bruce explains the origins of the problem for a certain subset very well, it still leaves a daunting, expensive and cumbersome process for the now well-adjusted , life successful adult hoping to pursue flight to clean up the record vis-a-vis the FAA.
 
Anthem said:
Not the bringing up the child properly problem, or finding a scapegoat for your poor parenting.
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Well, in that case I'm happy to take your advice. I never would have guessed Chief Justice Roberts' parent was a pilot and dwelled among us on PoA. Perhaps you've raised his siblings to be Olympic and/or professional athletes as well, similarly at the pinnacle of their chosen fields?
 
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cloudsurfer said:
I'm in a similar boat: went to my PC at 19 when my parents strong-armed me because my grades started slipping in school.
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My take on this subject is that your neurotic suburban parents screwed you. I continue to take these lessons through my own parenting of a son, who I don't give two flips if he wants to become a pilot, dermatologist or interpretative dancer. What I damn well do not want, is to be scapegoated as the causal source of his vocational barriers in adult/legally consenting life.

It's a complex job as most engaged parents would understand. But as has been highlighted earlier in the thread, it's hard to not be lazy and medicate the children away. Our workaholic and nuclear-family-centering society also makes it difficult not to be physically exhausted at the end of the day whilst navigating these pitfalls. But that's a more expansive discussion topic this forum isn't really built for, so I digress. My sincere condolences for your paperwork troubles, I stand in solidarity with those who want to fly glorified go-karts recreationally without so much red tape.
 
It's sad that non-commercial aviation also has to suffer the consequences of the attempt to achieve the impossible goal of "a zero air transport accident environment."
 
Tools said:
Hey Doc, you’re right. But with the faa, the world and the DSM catching up… don’t matter. THAT is the “POA relevant” problem.

Insofar as a ATP not knowing better… ain’t as obvious as it seems. Most career pilot atp’s trust their unions, who miserably let them down. Ain’t going to a health care professional without fear of unreasonable faa action how it’s supposed to work? Seems amateur cynics (who are extremely successful) have a better handle on the situation. Not how it’s supposed to work.
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Tools, the concept is "pay for good advice". Sadly, a lotta ATPs have not heard of that. :(

DJ- as happens on webboards, the case that Anthem makes may be overstated. But there is no denying "running to a pill" to "fix" the situation, in the least time demanding way possible, is a parental crutch which is used, IMO all too often.

But again, there is no "SI" for bipolar. NONE. And with the state of the art the way it is, I think until there is a better tool, it's going to remain that way.
 
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cloudsurfer said:
Only a fool would advocate for a true BP patient to be in the air.

HOWEVER, the processing of validating a diagnosis or misdiagnosis needs to improve.

I'm in a similar boat: went to my PC at 19 when my parents strong-armed me because my grades started slipping in school. With little conversation I walked out with freshly inked script for meds (Duly doc for those in the chi burbs). This came with the obv ADHD ICD and an ICD for seizures... I've never had one in my life.

Fast forward: the meds didn't make me feel good while going through an abusive relationship, so I went to a psychiatrist. He upped the dosage and gave me a benzo.

I wanted a second opinion so I found another board cert psych. He put me on a different stimulant, kept the benzo, an SNRI, and an anticonvulsant. Naturally coming with ICDs of (drumroll): BPII, ADHD, Borderline pers, depression, and anxiety. The doctor continually noted he wasn't dx but trying to "clean up my brain from the meds I was previously on". In the end, he stopped all prescriptions and I haven't needed to see him nor a therapist since.

I'm pretty darn confident that 4+ years of zero medication or counselling, graduating college, being a top-performer in my job with promotions, and stable relationships would reflect I probably don't have that condition.

Even if the board cert psych came forward explaining his dx process and clinical opinion, the FAA wouldn't give a darn.

This is purely anecdotal, but I'm probably not the only one that has fallen victim to this. While I'm biased, there needs to be a solution for dx validation.
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How are you moving forward if I might ask? Are you still pursuing your goal to become a pilot?
 
Myguy13 said:
I’ve recently got misdiagnosed with bipolar disorder type 1 . I’m currently an ATP pilot who has been flying for 10 years so this really is a shock to the system.

I was wondering if anyone had any information for how long it could take to receive a special issuance medical if shown to be a misdiagnosis.

I have no prior history of this illness and I’m working to be stepped off medications as we speak . I expect a long path but I have no resources as of right now.

Also has anyone in here been in my situation or know someone in my situation?

Thank you!
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How did you make out?
 
PamAnn said:
How are you moving forward if I might ask? Are you still pursuing your goal to become a pilot?
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First to address mryan75: This was not in the medical records, but was something we would tell me verbally.

@PamAnn: I’ve been a sport pilot for around 5 years now. It is my absolute passion, and grateful for my friends who let me fly fun planes with them.

@DOC Bruce: heard on all, regarding FAA’s zero SI for this. You mention 10 years of documented positive life events… what information should I start preparing/documenting today, to create the most compelling case to the FAA in many years from now?

Now going on 5+ years without any meds or need for therapy. Been promoted, twice, lead a 8-figure+ annual engineering program, have an amazing girlfriend, extremely stable finances, zero blemishes—not even a speeding ticket… Oh, and I learned I was essentially experiencing sleep apnea symptoms at this time due to kissing tonsils and a deviated septum. This was fixed through surgery and was life changing.

Which really is a testament to hindsight’s point. I took the advice of my doctor and took a job out of state from my family. The neurotic ‘rents, split family challenges, not truely sleeping, and battling imposture syndrome in school took a toll on me—and I firmly believe early 20s males are not fully mature enough to handle all that perfectly.

I totally understand there isn’t a great objective way to test difficult psychiatric conditions.

I’d love to leverage the knowledge in this forum to hear advice on how to prepare for a difficult road ahead.
 
Cloudsurfer: as able, collect general recommendation letters from bosses, top clients, etc, as the years go by. You need three "cards and letters" covering the ten years, as those in the know leave for promotion and are gone. Explain your past and make them understand, "oh hell, he's leaving too....NOT!"; most are happy to help. KEEP the letters. The can be written "to whom it may concern..." and make sure you bosses know you are not attemping to fly the coop.

You want to be the "Steady Eddie" on paper, which is something a true bipolar CANNOT do over a 10 year stretch. For what you want to do, there is no AMOC (alternate means of compliance).

B
 
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cloudsurfer2 said:
First to address mryan75: This was not in the medical records, but was something we would tell me verbally.

@PamAnn: I’ve been a sport pilot for around 5 years now. It is my absolute passion, and grateful for my friends who let me fly fun planes with them.

@DOC Bruce: heard on all, regarding FAA’s zero SI for this. You mention 10 years of documented positive life events… what information should I start preparing/documenting today, to create the most compelling case to the FAA in many years from now?

Now going on 5+ years without any meds or need for therapy. Been promoted, twice, lead a 8-figure+ annual engineering program, have an amazing girlfriend, extremely stable finances, zero blemishes—not even a speeding ticket… Oh, and I learned I was essentially experiencing sleep apnea symptoms at this time due to kissing tonsils and a deviated septum. This was fixed through surgery and was life changing.

Which really is a testament to hindsight’s point. I took the advice of my doctor and took a job out of state from my family. The neurotic ‘rents, split family challenges, not truely sleeping, and battling imposture syndrome in school took a toll on me—and I firmly believe early 20s males are not fully mature enough to handle all that perfectly.

I totally understand there isn’t a great objective way to test difficult psychiatric conditions.

I’d love to leverage the knowledge in this forum to hear advice on how to prepare for a difficult road ahead.
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I can toss my two cents on this as I just got my medical with NO special issuance with a bipolar disorder diagnosis. Really the goal is to try to prove to the feds that the bipolar disorder diagnosis was made in “accident” per se. It took lots of HIMS Psychiatric Evals and Cogscreen assessments to make that determination, but all I can truly recommend you is gather a team of experts that work closely with the FAA and a good AME that is able to guide you in this process. It tooks me years to obtain a decision but it was years of consistency and stability that led me there. I had dozens of papers, including some from political positions write me letters of recommendation which helped me give a boost. Dr George Glass was also a very strong advocate although a patient-to-doctor relationship was not established due to the nature of the job. Just keep showing up and prove you are stable as you say you are.
 
I fear that Air India is going to be a setback just like Germanwings 9525. Hold on to your hats. Remember, Federico Pena's avowed goal: "We will tolerate no accidents".
 
bbchien said:
I fear that Air India is going to be a setback just like Germanwings 9525. Hold on to your hats. Remember, Federico Pena's avowed goal: "We will tolerate no accidents".
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Pena's been gone for three decades. What does the reality TV star who has the job now think?
 
bbchien said:
...but he left a legacy of unreal expectations.

He (Mr. Duffy) thinks that if a pilot disobeys an ATC command his career should end. "Progress, huh?".
sigh

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Even if you take the article at face value (without any quote from Duffy), it doesn't say career should end. Losing your license could be a 30-day suspension. And I don't disagree that someone who disobeys ATC and causes a conflict with an airliner at a Class B airport should potentially face such consequences.
 
Reread: he sez LOSE their licensces. That is REVOCATION, Not suspension.
That means you take a year off and then have to repply for each and every ticket you earned.
And since in 90% of the situations "disobedience" is subject to interpretation, I think Mr. Duffy doens't quite "get it".

And Pena: he and his Bud, Billy Clinton, started the era of Politically correct speech and IMO that has been damaging: there's stuff you're not even permitted to admit.
 
Sergio said:
I can toss my two cents on this as I just got my medical with NO special issuance with a bipolar disorder diagnosis. Really the goal is to try to prove to the feds that the bipolar disorder diagnosis was made in “accident” per se. It took lots of HIMS Psychiatric Evals and Cogscreen assessments to make that determination, but all I can truly recommend you is gather a team of experts that work closely with the FAA and a good AME that is able to guide you in this process. It tooks me years to obtain a decision but it was years of consistency and stability that led me there. I had dozens of papers, including some from political positions write me letters of recommendation which helped me give a boost. Dr George Glass was also a very strong advocate although a patient-to-doctor relationship was not established due to the nature of the job. Just keep showing up and prove you are stable as you say you are.
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I'd like to talk to you more about your experience. How can I get ahold of you?
 
The problem lies only secondarily with the FAA, but let’s take docs and feds out of the equation for a second.

You show up to a parent teacher conference for your kid and the teacher (a person with a degree in education, maybe some developmental psych training) says, “Little Johnny/Suzie has demonstrated a tendency toward lying and manipulation.” You get home and say, “Have you been lying to [teacher]?” The child says, “No!”

The adult, who has no [obvious] reason to lie to you has said one thing, and the child who has at least been accused of lying and manipulation says something else. Who do you believe?

I know that in today’s culture, many take Johnny/Suzie’s side against the big bad teacher, but at least when/where I grew up, you trusted the adult over the kid.

Now we’ll bring the FAA and docs back in.

Doc, with formal training says, “Mr. Pilot has a problem in his brain that causes him to not accurately understand the world consistently. [ie. Bipolar, clinical depression, etc.]”

Mr. Pilot goes to the FAA and says, “No I don’t! I understand everything just fine.”

Who do you trust? The diagnosis accounts for the fact that sometimes you may be able to accurately understand what’s going on, but even when you don’t, YOU feel like you do.

The FAA, the “parent” in our scenario, is presented with two choices: believe the trained professional or believe the person who at least has been accused of not always understanding things correctly. They have decided to side with the teacher. Does the teacher always get it right? No. Do they make mistakes? Yes. Is it conceivable that they made that accusation for some ulterior motive? Yes.

But at the end of the day, they are going to go with the teacher over the kid every time.

I do think there should be a process through which you could present a case that the accusation/diagnosis was incorrect, but a kid would have to have something fairly substantial to veto a teacher’s word.

Just my two cents having been raised in a different time and place than I seem to be living in 2025!
 
The problem with the teacher/student, doctor/FAA analogy is when there are financial incentives involved. If a doc doesn't provide an insurance diagnosis code, they probably aren't getting paid. So, they may put down "bipolar" or another diagnosis without doing *all* the testing needed to verify that diagnosis. They may, in fact, feel they need to put that diagnosis down in order to justify getting paid for additional testing. In many cases, the docs don't fully understand the long term consequences of certain insurance codes.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
The problem with the teacher/student, doctor/FAA analogy is when there are financial incentives involved. If a doc doesn't provide an insurance diagnosis code, they probably aren't getting paid. So, they may put down "bipolar" or another diagnosis without doing *all* the testing needed to verify that diagnosis. They may, in fact, feel they need to put that diagnosis down in order to justify getting paid for additional testing. In many cases, the docs don't fully understand the long term consequences of certain insurance codes.
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THIS!

I am in this exact situation. Doc doesn't have anything diagnosis wise under his "diagnosis" section of this notes, but he had a laundry list of conditions listed in his ICD-10 list.

I do understand the hard to validate aspect. However, the same government trusts me enough with classified info through assessing my life events and behaviors.

Maybe someday we will have a better way of ruling out these issues other than 10 years and a lot of praying.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
The problem with the teacher/student, doctor/FAA analogy is when there are financial incentives involved. If a doc doesn't provide an insurance diagnosis code, they probably aren't getting paid. So, they may put down "bipolar" or another diagnosis without doing *all* the testing needed to verify that diagnosis. They may, in fact, feel they need to put that diagnosis down in order to justify getting paid for additional testing. In many cases, the docs don't fully understand the long term consequences of certain insurance codes.
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This is not only true, but I know a psychologist who has been pressured to "diagnose" people with stuff they didn't really have. (Perhaps some mama wanted special treatment for her kid, someone wants out of the military, etc.)
 
Jeff Oslick said:
The problem with the teacher/student, doctor/FAA analogy is when there are financial incentives involved. If a doc doesn't provide an insurance diagnosis code, they probably aren't getting paid. So, they may put down "bipolar" or another diagnosis without doing *all* the testing needed to verify that diagnosis. They may, in fact, feel they need to put that diagnosis down in order to justify getting paid for additional testing. In many cases, the docs don't fully understand the long term consequences of certain insurance codes.
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I don't at all disagree with that assessment. That is why I put the word obvious in brackets. In this case, the docs do have an obvious [to us] reason to improperly/inaccurately/overdiagnose. However, from the FAA's perspective, the teacher/child illustration is still the way they look at it.
 
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