Should we Still Teach Old Tech???

[salajander]

And how much for the the instructor time? And what value do we place on the students time?

The time I spent learning to use an E6B on my own was a rounding error in the total time I've spent studying and doing ground school.

Some people find it useful to use and a help to understand concepts and conversions, some people think it's a complete waste. Not sure why one school of thought would be more valid than the other?

 

[tspear]

The time I spent learning to use an E6B on my own was a rounding error in the total time I've spent studying and doing ground school.

Some people find it useful to use and a help to understand concepts and conversions, some people think it's a complete waste. Not sure why one school of thought would be more valid than the other?

How many rounding errors add up to a useful amount.
I started my PPL in December 2009, and my IR a year later. I spent a lot money and time learning things I will never use. ADF, HSI back courses, E6B... it all adds up. If I had to guess, between rental time on the plane and instructor time I dropped a good 10-15% of the total costs on stuff which I will never use.

Tim

 

[murphey]

I felt lucky if the ADF and the compass were both working in most of the rentals I used to fly. I'm moving up in the world, as my twin that I am restoring has an SCR-269 radio compass

There have been a number of times within the last year or so that there have been major area disruptions of the GPS system. I guess if you can't use anything else but that, when they are down, you don't fly then huh? I grew up learning to navigate by compass and topo maps long before I could drive or fly. GPS is a nicety, but I don't need it.

I teach an intro to aviation to middle schoolers (after school program) and we go thru all the instruments in the panel, and what each is for. I leave the little funny thing on top of the glareshield for last. It's the compass, and I explain every airplane has a compass. When everything else fails, we still got the compass. Couple weeks ago were the Boy Scouts - half of them dug into their pockets and pulled out a compass. So we got to talk about magnetic variation, too.

 

[murphey]

For all those advocating the E6B.
How does this help get more pilots? This is just one more item, which adds cost to getting a license or maintaining proficiency.
And the E6B is not used in everyday flying. If I lose my panel in flight, I am not going to dig out the E6B, and I am not going to keep it handy. I am going to deviate to the nearest airport, convert NM to SM by multiplying by 1.15 via simple math (drop the ones digit, divide by two and add both results to the base number). Same goes for everything else, use rules of thumb and get down.

Tim

Well, out here, the nearest airport may be far, far away. Or on the other side of a mountain that I can't climb high enough to fly over.

 

[tspear]

Well, out here, the nearest airport may be far, far away. Or on the other side of a mountain that I can't climb high enough to fly over.

And how does the E6B help you navigate around the mountain? Besides, out west, if single engine I will basically follow airways. Going direct does not generally seem worth the risk/reward.

Tim

 

[murphey]

I'm all for doing away with both the electronic and analog E6B and requiring student pilots to demonstrate proficiency in geometry and algebra. That takes care of wind triangles, fuel planning, W&B, time/fuel/speed, etc.

 

[murphey]

And how does the E6B help you navigate around the mountain? Besides, out west, if single engine I will basically follow airways. Going direct does not generally seem worth the risk/reward.

Tim

You've already pointed out that you're IR, mostly night. Out here following airways often means 17K. Your piston single may make it, mine won't. Nor will most of us in piston singles fly an airway in the hills at night (the Pilatus is an exception, of course). In fact most of us won't fly in the hills at night regardless of the route. We have no interest in having the county sheriff or CAP come looking for the crashed remains.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I don't see how the e6B is the basics of flight calculations, its just a rotary slide rule tailored for aviation that approximates the answers.

It only approximates answers if you don't use it right.

Or...

If three or four significant digits isn't enough, you're a better pilot than most.

 

[mscard88]

Is old tech still worth teaching? A brief article that discusses this while looking at the "old school" E6-B.

This E-6?

 

[N659HB]

Not in years. I switched to navaid based flying when I got my IR ticket. I am normally flying between 8-12K at night; which makes such methods rather impractical.

Tim

That makes sense.

But the basics should still be taught.

 

[Velocity173]

This E-6?

Negative. The thread is about the EA-6B.

 

[jimhorner]

I don't remember the E6B helping me understand the relationships between the numbers used in calculations. To me, it was a primitive form of calculator. Seeing the equations on paper made things more understandable for me. The same goes for wind triangles. They are more understandable when viewed and drawn on paper. YMMV.

Exactly. Formulae and diagrams drawn on paper are, to me, the best way of understanding these things. The E6B is just a mechanical calculator. I never found any value in it for learning.

The worst part of the commercial and instrument written tests that I've taken in the past several years are that I couldn't bring a real calulator with scientific functions (and RPN). I had to relearn how to use an E6B just for the tests. My trusty HP-15C, or better yet, the iPhone version of a scientific calculator with RPN, is much more convienent and better.

For instance, the stupid chart showing G loading vs angle of bank... The formula is 1/cos(bank angle). Lot easier to use in my opinion. And, it's easier to show why with a little high school physics and trig. Same thing for wind. Crosswind and headwind components is all about the sines and cosines. Easy to teach and show with a calculator and a pencil sketch, no need for the esoteric E6B.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[jimhorner]

An E6B (or my preference, the Jeppesen CR-5) is just a specialized calculator. Some things take a little take more work using the whiz wheel, some things take more work using the electronics.

In my oversimplified world, if you divide pilots into "artists" or "engineers", there are far more artists in cockpits than engineers...engineers seem to be able to visualize the math well enough to see advantages to whiz wheels, and artists are happy to just have something spit out a number so they can go fly.

Artists won't be converted to engineers, and engineers won't be converted to artists, so why try?

Well, I'm an engineer, and I find no use at all for the E6B. Rules of thumb and, where necessary a real calculator, to me, are much better. I'm a rules of thumb and estimates kinda guy myself. For most issues in flying, that works. Afer all, how close are the actual weather conditions to the forecast anyway?

Reminds me of the old joke about the difference between a scientist and an engineer. I'll clean it up a bit for the forum...

A scientist and an engineer are both placed in a room with a (changing it a bit here...) cake (yeah, let's go with a cake) on the other side of the room. They are told that each time they go towards the object of desire, they can only go half the remaining distance. The scientist immediately gives up and says that there's no way mathematically he can ever get there. The engineer takes the first step while saying, "yeah, but I can get close enough!"

Note that in the original joke, as told to me by my engineering drawing instructor, the object of desire certainly wasn't a cake....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[jordane93]

For all those advocating the E6B.
How does this help get more pilots? This is just one more item, which adds cost to getting a license or maintaining proficiency.
And the E6B is not used in everyday flying. If I lose my panel in flight, I am not going to dig out the E6B, and I am not going to keep it handy. I am going to deviate to the nearest airport, convert NM to SM by multiplying by 1.15 via simple math (drop the ones digit, divide by two and add both results to the base number). Same goes for everything else, use rules of thumb and get down.

Tim

I doubt new pilots would call it quits because learning an E6B is too hard. Flying challenging. It shouldn't be an easy thing to get! We need to find a way to lower costs not get rid of simple arithmetic.

 

[mondtster]

When making quick calculations to estimate time and distance I actually think the old mechanical E6B is one of the fastest ways to do it. Unfortunately, I don't carry an E6B around all that frequently, so more often than not I'm stuck using the calculator in my phone or some mental math. In the real world, rough approximations on time, distance and speed are often good enough to get the job done.

If instructors did away with teaching the E6B, what does everyone think instructors should spend the 0.5 hour of ground training that will be freed up on instead?

 

[FastEddieB]

In my oversimplified world, if you divide pilots into "artists" or "engineers"...

By any chance did you read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"?

He divides folks between "classicists" and "romantics". Same idea, though.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

The E6B I never had a problem with, but those performance charts, can we get rid of these:

And I love on the written test how they came up with exact answers, my pencil width is 100' and they give the answer 1216', I could of sworn it was 1215' .

 

[tspear]

I doubt new pilots would call it quits because learning an E6B is too hard. Flying challenging. It shouldn't be an easy thing to get! We need to find a way to lower costs not get rid of simple arithmetic.

Actually the E6-B eliminates simple arithmetic. It is a calculator...
And if someone objects to elimination of their favorite device, nothing will ever be eliminated. A new version of NIMBY.....

Tim

 

[steingar]

I never used the E6B and am not in the least bit sorry. I have a name for those who use slide rules in the age of computers, but it isn't nice and I won't use it here. I used to have an E6B calculator from Sporty's, these days I imagine Foreflight has most of those functions, and if not one could find some sort of application to do the job.

 

[jordane93]

Actually the E6-B eliminates simple arithmetic. It is a calculator...
And if someone objects to elimination of their favorite device, nothing will ever be eliminated. A new version of NIMBY.....

Tim

What would be your replacement for the E6B?

 

[Clark1961]

[7500] speaking of old technology...if I get into a car without a rear view backup camera I might as well circle, confess and declare an automotive emergency because I'm like what the.... what..... I have to 'look out the window'?!?! 'Sideview mirrors'?? what the.....

But the good news is when I trained I learned how to use them, in case I ever had to use those 'side view mirror' things. [/7500]

If you use the side view things the examiner should fail you unless you exit the vehicle and visually clear the backing field prior to backing the vehicle.

 

[Clark1961]

And how does the E6B help you navigate around the mountain? Besides, out west, if single engine I will basically follow airways. Going direct does not generally seem worth the risk/reward.

Tim

You obviously haven't flown out west much or you wasted a lot of time if you have.

 

[Sundancer]

The vast majority of the fleet is old, most are at least semi-old tech, even with a panel mount GPS navigator. The old tech is easier, simpler, often more intuitive - the G1000 is a human-factors mess, for example, just not a good interface at all.

But teach old tech? An hour or two with a book, and in the airplane, and you pretty much have VOR down pat. For time and distance and fuel, same with an E-6B (though I admit I never use one). A E-6B is a computer, albeit an analog one, perfectly useful and effective. No batteries, or temp limits, either. I'm not advocating for or against, but the interface is certainly easier to master than an EFB. No reason to shove it down anyone's throat, and no reason to ban it, either. If a student prefers an electronic computer, cool, go with it. If he prefers an analog one, that's fine, too. Just a preference in tools. .

 

[tspear]

What would be your replacement for the E6B?

Rules of thumb, or any calculator or flight planning app.

Tim

 

[tspear]

The vast majority of the fleet is old, most are at least semi-old tech, even with a panel mount GPS navigator. The old tech is easier, simpler, often more intuitive - the G1000 is a human-factors mess, for example, just not a good interface at all.

But teach old tech? An hour or two with a book, and in the airplane, and you pretty much have VOR down pat. For time and distance and fuel, same with an E-6B (though I admit I never use one). A E-6B is a computer, albeit an analog one, perfectly useful and effective. No batteries, or temp limits, either. I'm not advocating for or against, but the interface is certainly easier to master than an EFB. No reason to shove it down anyone's throat, and no reason to ban it, either. If a student prefers an electronic computer, cool, go with it. If he prefers an analog one, that's fine, too. Just a preference in tools. .

An hour here, an hour there. And at some point you are talking real money.
As for battery failure. My manual E6B died because my drink spilled all over it, the stupid electric one continued to function.

Tim

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Yes. Being able to use the old tech requires the user to actually understand what they are doing.

 

[Velocity173]

It's not about learning a harder old school way vs a quicker new school way. It's not even about a military benefit vs civilian.

It's about visualizing what the data presents. A simple App doesn't look left and right of the correct answer. An E6B does that. You can vary the numbers and see what a + or - in temp or PA does to DA. You can look at the wind correction angle and instantly see how a different heading is effected by the winds. You can look at the crosswind component diagram and at a glance know what your X wind component is. Check your fuel burn and then get your range with a few twists of the wheel. Get your descent rate for a given GS and glide slope in seconds without flipping to the back of a paper approach plate. I must say, learning to use an E6B was probably one of the quickest and easiest things to do in flight school.

The heart of the issue is this new wave of pilots who don't want to take the time to learn what the numbers mean and how they affect performance planning. They just want a quick "go / no go" result without understanding the heart of that answer. They really don't want to do any real preflight planning at all. They want to hop in the airplane like a car and go, then their EFB will make up for the lack of planning. A swag will be fine in their world. God forbid they actually have to take the time and use their brain to learn something about aviation.

 

[jordane93]

Rules of thumb, or any calculator or flight planning app.

Tim

I'd be good with the first two. I don't see how any student would learn by plugging numbers into an app though.

 

[James331]

Never was a huge fan of the E6B, just make sure your students know the math behind the E6B, electric E6B, cross country, W&B etc.

Lots of reasons for this, all else fails and your iPad breaks, or better yet knowing enough see if something is giving you garbage information.

 

[deonb]

Reminds me of the old joke about the difference between a scientist and an engineer. I'll clean it up a bit for the forum...

A scientist and an engineer are both placed in a room with a (changing it a bit here...) cake (yeah, let's go with a cake) on the other side of the room. They are told that each time they go towards the object of desire, they can only go half the remaining distance. The scientist immediately gives up and says that there's no way mathematically he can ever get there. The engineer takes the first step while saying, "yeah, but I can get close enough!"

Note that in the original joke, as told to me by my engineering drawing instructor, the object of desire certainly wasn't a cake....

I told that joke (the original version) in highschool to a friend. I think we were both 14 at the time. He proclaimed: "That's disgusting!", stormed off and didn't speak to me for a month.

I'm still dumbstruck by his reaction to this very day.

 

[Clip4]

Considering there is not a single E6B calculation that cannot be done on a calculator......

 

[cowman]

Depends on the old tech. VOR? Yes. How to read a sectional and figure out where you are without GPS? Heck yes. E6B? Nope, in fact I think they should get rid of it.

Most new pilots, myself included, are going to learn the E6B well enough to do their pre-flight planning and pass their written, then it will sit in the bottom of the flight bag. Even if, one day, all the gadgets fail at once they're at best not going to be proficient with it and at worst not remember how to use it at all. Assuming it's even within the pilot's reach in the first place.

I don't see how the E6B helps you understand any concept better, it's just an old fashioned calculator. You don't need that to get that there's headwind/tailwind and it changes your ground speed or that you have a set amount of fuel that gets used at a certain rate.

What new pilots really need to know is what they're going to do to get safely home or at least to safety if the devices fail. I feel I know how to do that and the E6B isn't part of my strategy.

 

[Matthew]

I kind of looked at it as not so much "learning how to operate an E6B" as "learning what the E6B does and how". It's a training tool to get you to learn how to do the math and wind angles. If you can do it on an E6B, then you know how it all works - if you can do it with pencil and paper and sines and cosines on a calculator, then you also know how it works. Plugging an origin, destination, and time of departure into a flight planner and letting it give you an answer doesn't teach you how it works, but it's what we all do once we pass the checkride.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

How many rounding errors add up to a useful amount.
I started my PPL in December 2009, and my IR a year later. I spent a lot money and time learning things I will never use. ADF, HSI back courses, E6B... it all adds up. If I had to guess, between rental time on the plane and instructor time I dropped a good 10-15% of the total costs on stuff which I will never use.

Tim

Yeah but you understand some things that you would not understand had you skipped those parts of training. You just might need that knowledge to save your bacon. I know I have.

 

[murphey]

If you use the side view things the examiner should fail you unless you exit the vehicle and visually clear the backing field prior to backing the vehicle.

Not only that, you need to make 2 turns, on either direction, to clear the road around you.

 

[tspear]

Yeah but you understand some things that you would not understand had you skipped those parts of training. You just might need that knowledge to save your bacon. I know I have.

Nope. HSI back courses and the E6B did not help one iota. For everyone of those things, I went back to calculus and trig to get the real math behind it.
And as for that math, nope. It will never be used, it will never help. I have never seen one single scenario ever presented where a lot of that crap helps. If I have a glass panel, I am never going to fly a reversing sensing back course. If I lose the panel, I am not going to try and predict my arrival time down to the minute using an E6B. I am going to look for the nearest VMC airport and land using simple rules of thumb.

If you are flying a plane which has such a HSI, I can understand the DPE grilling you on it. But for the rest, not so much.


Tim

 

[TommyG]

We can get rid of what we tech people want. We will be left with a sky full of wanna be pilots that can't go A to B without thier iPad, or magenta line GPS, autopilots. So we end up with a lot of crashes, lost pilots crying for help. Or they stay on the ground and leave more room in the sky for the pilots that can fly without all of those.

 

[BillTIZ]

The E6B is a waste of time. In many ways it is like using a sextant for navigation.
For civilians there are plenty rules of thumb for anything the article suggests you would need in case the whole glass panel goes kaput. The rules of thumb are good enough to get down, and if I lose the whole panel, I am declaring an emergency and getting on the ground asap.
Now for the military which will often operate in conditions which civilians would not consider, the E6B may provide a lot of value.

Tim

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk

I did a lot of military flying with E6B, speed dividers, sextant and manual math computing the celestial data. After a while I did get a Texas Instruments calculator that we programmed for celestial data.

But if you don't understand the math behind the program, how do you know when your computer generated magenta line is wrong.

Most question most DPEs hear, "what is that box doing now?"

 

[BillTIZ]

I don't remember the E6B helping me understand the relationships between the numbers used in calculations. To me, it was a primitive form of calculator. Seeing the equations on paper made things more understandable for me. The same goes for wind triangles. They are more understandable when viewed and drawn on paper. YMMV.

An E6B or CR-5 is a circular slide rule. And they quit teaching slide rule (slip sticks) in school many many years ago.

 

[Pilawt]

Most question most DPEs hear, "what is that box doing now?"

Second most: "Look, it just did it again!"

Third most: "How do we get it to stop doing that?"

Oh, sorry, wrong list ... those are the top three things said by Airbus flight crews.