Should I buy into a 172 club for CPL training?

cowman

cowman

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So I've recently started working on a CPL with the long term goal of getting a CFI rating. I own/fly a Piper Lance which while doable makes some of the maneuvers challenging. What got me thinking about the 172 option is more the economics- I'm putting hours on an IO-540 and chugging down avgas at a wallet draining rate. The buy-in for the 172 is $4,000, then a $100/mo fee plus $100/hr, I don't have all the details yet I just asked about it in passing to see if it was even in consideration territory.

Another consideration is with the eventual goal of becoming a CFI I'd be broadening my experience a bit. I have 20-some hours of 172 time but that was over 10 years ago now and I don't remember much. Since then I have only flown a PA-28-181 and the Lance I currently own. If I'm a CFI I'll presumably be flying many different types with different instruments and it might be worth something to get used to transitioning back and forth. OTOH doing this in a more challenging airplane- and the one I primarily fly has some value too.

Right now it's not something I'm necessarily serious about jumping on but the opportunity is there, curious what wiser more experienced folks here think.
 
Of course, it depends. But most of my 3600 hours of instruction has been in Cessna 172s, by far. There are going to be some exceptions, but flying the Skyhawk will certainly be good experience for a new CFI.
 
If the underlying reason for the CSEL is eventually CFI, there could be value in buying in.

For me, it’s a straight line math problem. Can you do the CSEl and CFI training, practice, and exam cheaper over all in your plane or the club plane.

Not knowing how the buy-in is managed (our partnership selling prices are set by the partner) and the size of the club, let’s just zero that out.

$100/dry needs to add gas; wet is straight line. The big thing is the is the power-off 180s in my opinion. That’s a lot of laps in the pattern pulling the throttle and cycling the gear.

Since you no longer need the TAA/complex for the check ride, if you’ve got the 10hrs TAA/complex training already, then great, otherwise you need it in one or the other.

Finally, not knowing the panels is limiting. If both have steam and a 430/530, that’s different than going from glass to steam for the instrument portion. Those differences can take a while to absorb, especially from a systems perspective.

I’m a fan of train for the flying you do; add ratings for the flying you want to do. If you want to be a primary CFI, go do the 172 route. The club offers a built in customer base for FRs at a minimum.
 
I gotta think doing the commercial in your lance would be cheaper.
The Commercial training it probably 20 hours give or take?
In your 540, that's less than $2000 in fuel right?
 
Why shy away from maneuvers that are "challenging"? I would think that if you have any skills at all that CPL training is pretty quick.
 
It's a decent idea. The buy in isn't excessive, and I think you would be able to offload it later rather easily. Saving the hours on your airplane is a definitely a benefit to consider, along with the others you mentioned.
 
For the purpose of training for your Comm, it doesn't make sense to me to join the club. You already have an airplane that you are familiar with. CP training is not a marathon like Private or Instrument. Heck, you can do it in a long weekend if you already meet the experience and some of the training requirements (and have them documented correctly, see many other threads about this).

In addition, training with a club airplane can be challenging. A member has it scheduled for a week long trip, then there's bad weather for few days, and another member has it for another week. Now it's been a few weeks between your lessons.

So joining a club for this purpose seems like unnecessary cost and complication.

Now, joining for the purpose of getting and especially using your CFI may make sense, but as you say that's a long term goal, not your immediate one.
 
I bought in to a 172 club with 21.3 hours and have run it all the way to commercial and now working on CFI/-I. Here was my math:

Buy in: $8700
Wet/hr: $80
Local rental: $180/hr

Saving me: $100/hr

Based on this, I knew that I needed at least 228.7 more hours to commercial mins, effectively saving me $22,870 vs renting. Even factoring in club dues and maintenance (we just split the annual among the club members) I’ve saved over $20k vs renting.

You on the other hand, having your own plane, the math won’t look exactly the same.

Budget out the cost of overhaul divided by the number of hours before overhaul (I’d recommend TBO minus 200 to be safe). Then add avgas burn/hr (again, not your best fuel consumption, but an average) and account for price of fuel being up. Remember the club is a fixed rate regardless of fuel price at least from what I can tell.

Sample math:

IO-540 Overhaul $20,000 (idk what it actually is, just using a random number)
Hours on engine currently: 800
TBO: 2000
Hours until overhaul (-200): 1000
Overhaul budget/hr: $20
14GPH @ $6.25/gal (local rate here): $87.50
Miscellaneous maintenance (oil change, etc): $2.50/hr

Now your Lance is costing you $110/hr vs the $100 in the 172. Add to that the prospect of teaching and it will likely be in a lot of trainers (172, PA-28, etc) and you’re not just saving money and saving the wear and tear on your bird, you’re equipping yourself with the knowledge and skills to better help your students.

As for that $4k buy in, assuming you can sell your share when you’re done, that’s a wash, so as long as you have the finances to make that purchase, I wouldn’t factor that in.

Bottom line, is it a good idea? Probably!
 
I don't think an experienced pilot would need all that much time in a 172 to be competent to teach in it.
Steep turns=three turns of the trim
First notch of flaps = one turn
 
I’m with Russ…if you have a decent level of proficiency, use your airplane. It’ll be cheaper, it’s not that hard on the airplane, and you’ll force your instructor to teach you the maneuvers, not the formula to do the maneuvers in a 172.
 
So, I started working on my CPL before my latest engine fiasco. I'm also a member of a 172 club. The 172 rents for $107 wet, which I reckon is about half what it costs to fly the Lance. I chose to do the training in the Lance for a couple reasons.
-The Lance is much more comfortable for myself and my CFI, who are both gentlemen of significant gravity.
-I want to learn the corners of the envelope in the Lance, which the CPL does fairly effectively. Kind of bonding with the airplane.

I don't think the maneuvers would be any easier in a skyhawk. The two that are tricky in the PA32 are the steep spiral and the power off 180. I'm not sure the PO180 would be easier in the 172, just less scary. The Lance does it just fine, but it drops FAST. That actually is helpful if you've got a bit too much energy; you can plant the wheels pretty much whenever you want, whereas a 172 will float, and float, and float. You just have to start close in and fast to make it in the Lance. The steep spiral is a problem because the plane drops like 2000' in a 360 degree turn, so you have to start the maneuver at 8000'.

That said, if my goal was CFI, that would change the math some. Getting your foot in the door with the club would be useful. You'd probably be getting business immediately if you're experienced in their plane. Also, knowing the corners of the plane some kid is going to try to kill you in would be quite useful.

I guess I'd suggest you do it in whichever plane you feel would be the most useful to become very proficient in. I think the cost would be a wash.
 
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Jim K said:
That said, if my goal was CFI, that would change the math some. Getting your foot in the door with the club would be useful. You'd probably be getting business immediately if you're experienced in their plane. Also, knowing the corners of the plane some kid is going to try to kill you in would be quite useful.
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If and when the OP goes for the CFI certificate, I’d definitely suggest working through that in the 172 for the reasons you stated, but especially if it’s more than a year or two down the road, I don’t think doing the Commercial in the 172 would make much difference.
 
I think I'd personally use the Lance for the commercial. Then use the 172 for everything after that. If you can do a power off 180 in a Lance, you can do it in a 172.

What's the cost Delta on an hourly basis? 30 bucks?
 
In your shoes I'd probably do the commercial in the Lance. But if you buy into the C172, you could get a head start on the CFI training and do all the Commercial maneuvers training from the right seat. Do the commercial check ride from the right seat then follow soon after with CFI check ride while it's all fresh.
 
Sounds like everyone else has kinda the same set of thoughts I've had on it.

For now I think I will continue in the Lance because I do want to learn all of these maneuvers in it for my own benefit even if I never get to the CFI point. But I'm gonna keep my ear to the ground for opportunities to get into other airplanes here and there because I think if I do end up instructing I should really have a broader familiarity with different types. I might still jump in on the 172 later in the training or just for CFI purposes as I have absolutely no desire or intention of doing any instruction in the Lance.
 
Have you been flying right seat in your airplane? I think you can do a mix of your airplane and a club 172 but not sure if I’d do the buy-in for the 172, unless you can later sell the buy in? The more hours you fly your airplane, the better, for the airplane and for your costs. Now my mechanic would have a heart attack about doing too many run ups or cycling the gear too many times, but other than that, it should be fine. Do go arounds instead of touch and go’s? You can do the other maneuvers gear up.
 
mandm said:
Have you been flying right seat in your airplane? I think you can do a mix of your airplane and a club 172 but not sure if I’d do the buy-in for the 172, unless you can later sell the buy in? The more hours you fly your airplane, the better, for the airplane and for your costs. Now my mechanic would have a heart attack about doing too many run ups or cycling the gear too many times, but other than that, it should be fine. Do go arounds instead of touch and go’s? You can do the other maneuvers gear up.
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I don't think commercial training should place any inordinate load upon your gear system. I would NEVER do a maneuver gear up planning on a go-around to save wear and tear! The increased chances of a gear-up landing are not worth the pennies in wear and tear it costs to put the gear down.

Maneuver wise, you can't do everything with gear up. Slow flight, stalls, steep spirals, power off 180 all need the gear down, maybe some others depending on aircraft type.
 
If you are worried about putting hours on your own plane, why do you have one?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I don't think commercial training should place any inordinate load upon your gear system. I would NEVER do a maneuver gear up planning on a go-around to save wear and tear! The increased chances of a gear-up landing are not worth the pennies in wear and tear it costs to put the gear down.

Maneuver wise, you can't do everything with gear up. Slow flight, stalls, steep spirals, power off 180 all need the gear down, maybe some others depending on aircraft type.
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You can do that gear down, I think it’s the landing that puts the usage on the airframe? Not saying not to do it, but doing it 10 times a month vs 100 times a month makes a difference?
 
Wagondriver said:
If you are worried about putting hours on your own plane, why do you have one?
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I don’t think people are afraid about putting hours on, just that when you do certain actions repeatedly that causes more mx and can affect your up time. Each person will have their own opinion on this.
 
mandm said:
You can do that gear down, I think it’s the landing that puts the usage on the airframe? Not saying not to do it, but doing it 10 times a month vs 100 times a month makes a difference?
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Do what gear down?

Cycling the gear 100 times one month and 10 times all the rest of the month is meaningless. It'll get swung and lubed at annual either way. The extra wear of training for your own commercial (as opposed to having the plane on the rental line for complex and commercial training) is unlikely to have any effect at all on gear maintenance. *Maybe* if you have a plane with a relatively weak or failure-prone gear system design (R182, maybe Comanche?) but I probably wouldn't worry about it even then - You're putting 2 years' wear on it in one year.
 
When it comes to earning certs, my opinion is always to do it in the most simple equipment allowed. If I had a billion dollars, I wouldn't do my Multi Add on in a Gulfstream (but maybe a Citation ;) ). For me it's not about equipment or maintenance, it's about reducing complexity and focusing on the ACS. That's why I love the 172/PA28 - it's all you need! Heck - do it all in a Piper Cub like a real pilot!

So get that 172/PA28.

Are you going to lose a bunch of money? sure - but that's why we're all here! Could you recoup your costs keeping it as a trainer? maybe. If you do your commercial in a 172 does that mean you can't do power-off 180s in the Lance? Of course not! I did my rating in a 172 and have done power off approaches in every single engine I have time in (PC12 included) except a Mooney.
 
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