Shop rates and MX

[pfarber]

I offer this for some hopefully interesting discussion.

Here are some snippets from an early March episode of 'Ask the A and Ps'

But unfortunately, the, the pay and benefits haven't, haven't been able to match the, the airlines and, and so on, and I think we need to try to change that. I've talked about that a lot. We need to pay GA mechanics more, which means we have to raise shop rates in order to make that possible because we have this acute mechanic shortage in GA.

we can keep customers, uh, you know, $1.3 million airplanes indoors instead of parked on the ramp.

my shop rate is, we just went up to a whopping $140. Uh, and the car dealerships in town are pushing $200.

I wouldn't say we're at our limit. We have a clientele that we could, we could probably push it up higher than that.

how far out is your shop booked these days?

And so you're booked out a year.

I don't know what that limit is, but at the moment we have, I think, like 30 customers on a waitlist. But yeah, I mean, we could, we could raise our rates, but that just feels Odd.

What do you think? Owners want want more MX. MX needs more pay to do GA vs airlines. Shops (at least this one) don't seem willing to solve the supply and demand problem in front of them.

Just wondering what others may think.

 

[FORANE]

You make a valid argument with regard for supply and demand. As a consumer of services like you offer, I am less likely to be offended by higher pricing when it is known beforehand. In other words, if I have a reasonable expectation for price and I agree with that prior to work starting, there no issue. If I'm surprised by a high and unexpected bill, then I might be upset.

My auto mechanic is awesome. He does great work. He picks up my car at my house, repairs it and returns it to my house when I am away. Problem is he's always busy and might take months to get to me. He only charges $50 / hour. I told him he needs to raise prices. He said there were people who just couldn't afford more so he's left it at $50. Sadly I am looking for another mechanic because I like to keep my cars in top condition and don't want to wait for repairs. My mechanic prioritizes the people with only one vehicle or the one completely broken down.

 

[Lama1125]

GA, as a whole, does need to go up a little, but not so much that it makes ownership less affordable. Cars don't require inspections every year so when they need the work, its understandable that they are higher. Our shop isn't heavily booked, but we're still newer and can bring people in on short notice. It's hard to get your name out there when everyone is sold on their shops they've been taking it to for years. I understand loyalty whole heartedly, but when you're complaining about how booked out they are, give another shop a try. Another set of eyes is always a good thing after all.

 

[Doc Holliday]

It’s hard to convince hobbyist that already have something they really can’t afford to spend money on silly things like required maintenance. It’s much easier to have SGOTI to recommend buying cheap Chinese parts and do a hangar fairy repair then hope for the best.

 

[Paul Thomas]

GA, as a whole, does need to go up a little, but not so much that it makes ownership less affordable. Cars don't require inspections every year so when they need the work, its understandable that they are higher. Our shop isn't heavily booked, but we're still newer and can bring people in on short notice. It's hard to get your name out there when everyone is sold on their shops they've been taking it to for years. I understand loyalty whole heartedly, but when you're complaining about how booked out they are, give another shop a try. Another set of eyes is always a good thing after all.

Another set of eyes IS a good thing; the problem is whether you trust that other set of eyes. I think we've all heard stories of nightmares with a new shop. When there are multiple shops at one field, it's easier to give someone a try because you can always tow the airplane to another shop. When there is only one shop on the field, it gets much scarier to try the new guy.

 

[Lama1125]

Another set of eyes IS a good thing; the problem is whether you trust that other set of eyes. I think we've all heard stories of nightmares with a new shop. When there are multiple shops at one field, it's easier to give someone a try because you can always tow the airplane to another shop. When there is only one shop on the field, it gets much scarier to try the new guy.

That's true. That's why I personally try to be in constant communication with customers so they feel better about bringing it to me. We offer hangar tours so they can see what the workspace is like as well (clean, organized and stocked)

 

[Dan Thomas]

A lot of aircraft owners are on the edge of hanging on to their airplanes. Jack the shop rates up and the traffic goes down. If the traffic goes down enough you go broke, especially in geographic areas of less wealth. I could see the used aircraft market being flooded with airplanes for sale as the edge-case owners give up and sell off. Or the cheapskate owners will just get even more tight and their airplanes won't be anywhere near minimum airworthiness standards.

I sure don't see much-higher rates working too well. How many owners are flying ancient airplanes, compared to the number flying new or relatively new stuff? This isn't the auto or boat or snowmobile industry; it's an all-round expensive hobby, even with the lower shop rates.

 

[Bell206]

What do you think? Owners want want more MX. MX needs more pay to do GA vs airlines. Shops (at least this one) don't seem willing to solve the supply and demand problem in front of them.

Except you have to define which part of "GA" is having this problem. In general, GA is thriving. Its only the Part 91 private, recreational portion that is declining and having these issues. But if you want to increase shop availability and expand maintenance opportunities you'll need find a way to increase the number of people who want to become an A&P mechanic, first. Then you can offset the numbers of current mechanics leaving the industry. Once those numbers stabilize, then you can look at how to incentivize those new A&Ps to enter the Part 91 rec mx side. However, you won't be able to replace the experience that is also going out the door.

Unfortunately, the FAA has seen and been told about the same issues you bring up for years, however, they have moved in an opposite for the recreational sector as they expand the repairman authorizations. And if that trend continues, I think you’ll see more opportunities for owners to maintain their private aircraft themselves without a direct need for an A&P.

 

[pfarber]

I'm looking at the math solely for in intent of owners (who may be great MX, but light on the business side) and it breaks down like this:

There are 2080 hours in a normal 8 hour work week per year. As a sole proprietor adding $5/hr to your rate generates $10,400 in additional revenue of which you would expect to pay about 25% in taxes (rough numbers) for a net of $7800. So $10 per hour increase is $15,600 net.

I don't think an owner is gonna rage about your rate going from $140 to $155 esp if you haven't increased your rate in a few years. And if they do 'quit' your services then AnPs kinda have a monopoly on the field.. I don't think many airports have 2-3 shops to choose from (if they have one at all) or they are going to have to hope a travelling AnP is in the area an has lower rates. The best 'defense' an owner has is increase the amount of preventative maint. they can do. But when they realize that an oil change can be a 2-3 hour endeavor, cost $50+ in oil plus the filter + sundries and require tools and skills that they may not have, that hourly rate doesn't sting as much.

If owners want well trained, well equipped and well, a shops ability to simply afford the expenses/rent/taxes of a shop on the field they should realize that the shop fee is the only way to achieve that.

 

[Racerx]

Welcome to being a small business owner. It can be a fine line between working too cheap and scaring people off. In my busy season I lament that I need to charge more. But I usually have a lull for 2 months where Im paying guys to sweep floors because they have nothing to do and my customers put things off in the winter. But come spring they all want/need things done at the same time.

In my experience the people that I scare off raising my labor rate, I really didn't want to work for them anyway as they're always a pain.

 

[Bell206]

And if they do 'quit' your services then AnPs kinda have a monopoly on the field..

Over the years, I found this point to be subjective to location and smaller airports. So while it might seem straight forward you'd lose a "couple" customers to a 20-30% mx rate increase but retain a captive market on the rest, that is not always a sure thing. For one, they can simply decide to fly to another location for their mx, and if the shops new rates have offended more than just a few, pilots have been known to does things at a communal level and they all fly to another location. Regardless, if you were to track the change in the Part 91 recreational market you'll find the ones who will "quit your services" also include those electing to either get out all together or move over to a less captive market like LSA or E/AB. And when the new MOSAIC offerings hit the air in the next year or two or three, I think this whole topic will be redefined completely on the mx side.

 

[Dan Thomas]

All of this brings up the subject of the free market. Prices are not controlled, and business owners are free to charge what they want. If they charge too much, they lose business. If they charge too little, they get lots of business but go broke. It's called competition, and it's a balancing act. We're not in some totalitarian country where prices are dictated by the government; anywhere that has happened, the quality and availability of goods and services have suffered enormously. There is no incentive to work any hard and do better work because you can't charge any more or pay yourself or your employees any more money anyway. I have read far too many stories of that sort of thing in the old USSR. The people finally revolted, tired of the shortages and poor quality and lousy pay, and big changes were made. 1991. Ancient history for some of the young guys here.

 

[pfarber]

Going from $120 to $150 an hour is a 20% jump. Also going from $150 to $180 is also that same 20% jump. That could be to large for many shops to 'justify'. But if you haven't noticed, the inflation rate from 2021 through 2025 has been 25% so even with a 20% jump you're still behind where you were 5 years ago. This is where the MX has to put down the wrench and become a businessman. Maybe jump 10% a year, or simply send out an information packet to long time customers with some simple bullet points: inflation is a thing and rates need to go up.

You can definitely free up resources when the 'economically challenged' owners go away. When I ran my company we knew that certain area's were just gonna get bad connections (I ran a dial up ISP in 5 small cities) because not all phone companies are equal. I'd rather they got service from a competitor and be thier problem, not mine.

Owners can fly to other airports... but when you're broke (as in parts) you're not flying anywhere. When you land an blow a tire you're paying shop rate on the field.

A shop should charge, and pay its MX, a fair rate. Owners should get repairs done properly and in a reasonable amount of time.

Remember the old saying: good quality, fast speed, low cost. Pick two.

 

[Pugs]

There's the shop rate but what irks me is when it is assumed all the work is done by the one top rated guy when I watched the junior guy do the oil change (or whatever). Worse than the shop rate, is the overhead charged on parts. Some is expected but we left one shop because of the obscene amount.

The other issue is the A&P who insists on replacing everything, including parts that are fine, just because of "recommended". A friend is having his Mooney engine rebuilt and is at $150K with everything forward of the firewall new when reality was some of it was just fine. Inspecting and replacing on condition is encouraged in my book.

 

[Dana]

Going from $120 to $150 an hour is a 20% jump. Also going from $150 to $180 is also that same 20% jump.

Going from 120 to 150 is a 25% jump.

 

[FORANE]

There's the shop rate but what irks me is when it is assumed all the work is done by the one top rated guy when I watched the junior guy do the oil change (or whatever). Worse than the shop rate, is the overhead charged on parts. Some is expected but we left one shop because of the obscene amount.

The other issue is the A&P who insists on replacing everything, including parts that are fine, just because of "recommended". A friend is having his Mooney engine rebuilt and is at $150K with everything forward of the firewall new when reality was some of it was just fine. Inspecting and replacing on condition is encouraged in my book.

Yeah, I've experienced all this also.

One bad experience I had was when I asked the shop owner to send all 4 cylinders for overhaul to Gibsons. They did that, but when the job was completed the shop owner was out with COVID. Because of that one of the worker A&P's made the log entry. Apparently he didn't do that very often. His log entry stated removed and replaced 4 cylinders. There was nothing stating the cylinders were overhauled, what plating was used on the cylinder walls, no part numbers listed for anything such as the rings that were installed, etc. The bill was inflated much higher than I expected knowing what Gibsons charges. They then refused to give me a copy of the invoice from Gibsons so I had no evidence of an overhaul or what parts were used. I ended up having to get the invoice from Gibsons directly. Of course the charge from Gibsons and the amount on the shops invoice didn't match...

Another bad experience I had was a guy who decided he needed to remove the tires from the rims during annual on my experimental Lancair. He said he needed to check the condition of the tubes. In doing so he popped a couple tubes, had to order more, charged me for the tubes he popped along with the labor to perform what I considered to be unnecessary, and kept the plane for months doing all this.

 

[Lindberg]

I'm looking at the math solely for in intent of owners (who may be great MX, but light on the business side) and it breaks down like this:

There are 2080 hours in a normal 8 hour work week per year. As a sole proprietor adding $5/hr to your rate generates $10,400 in additional revenue of which you would expect to pay about 25% in taxes (rough numbers) for a net of $7800. So $10 per hour increase is $15,600 net.

I don't think an owner is gonna rage about your rate going from $140 to $155 esp if you haven't increased your rate in a few years. And if they do 'quit' your services then AnPs kinda have a monopoly on the field.. I don't think many airports have 2-3 shops to choose from (if they have one at all) or they are going to have to hope a travelling AnP is in the area an has lower rates. The best 'defense' an owner has is increase the amount of preventative maint. they can do. But when they realize that an oil change can be a 2-3 hour endeavor, cost $50+ in oil plus the filter + sundries and require tools and skills that they may not have, that hourly rate doesn't sting as much.

If owners want well trained, well equipped and well, a shops ability to simply afford the expenses/rent/taxes of a shop on the field they should realize that the shop fee is the only way to achieve that.

Tell me where you find these magical employees who do eight hours of customer-billable work every single weekday of the year without rest and don't expect a raise when you increase your rates.

 

[Bell206]

This is where the MX has to put down the wrench and become a businessman.

Except aviation mx is not similar to most other business ops on various levels. In general, if you run your mx business like a dial up ISP business you’ll either be out of business or eventually gain a bad rep. So the successful mx shops or individual A&P ops tend to realize that difference and in today’s market most remain booked, have a sold customer base, and don’t have to advertise which has nothing to do with their rates. The issue its these type run shops are declining as the shop owner retire and next gen owners don't recognize or see that business difference.

Regardless, if a mechanic really wanted to bump up their game in the Part 91 recreational market, they would go mobile which allows them to charge a premium rate by bringing that service to the customer. However, its not for the faint of heart to be successful at due to a number of roadblocks for that type of service. Unfortunately, there has been a notable uptick in one aspect of this type service but from the opposite end of the mx spectrum who value their signature more than the work they perform. And this became very evident during covid when the used aircraft market exploded as people were trying to move any aircraft they had or could find.

 

[Lon Stratton]

My opinion is that hourly rates mean absolutely nothing.

Am I paying 150/hr to the new A&P hire or the I/A chief mechanic? When I'm paying that rate, is the technician truly spending every minute of that hour working on my plane?
Of course not.
I believe shops figure what a particular job should take and charge that amount. Some of those standard jobs take longer, others, less. Theoretically they even out in the end. Hopefully the experienced guys can estimate non standard jobs enough that they can give a pretty close estimate of the actual price. At the shop I use, each mechanic has a time card for every job they're working on. They clock in and out of each job they work on. The oldest mechanic there works on my plane. I can't tell you how many times someone will walk into the shop and right over to my guy and start bull ****ting. Sometimes it goes on for 20 minutes. Does he clock out during that time? It doesn't matter. My bill is going to be the same no matter what.

The bigger issue is the loss of experienced mechanics. At some point, Hourly rates, Flat rates, etc. won't matter one bit. Will we be able to get competent work done? That is the bigger issue.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Tell me where you find these magical employees who do eight hours of customer-billable work every single weekday of the year without rest and don't expect a raise when you increase your rates.

Also, they don't want any holidays, vacations or sick time. Or professional development/training time.

 

[Rcmutz]

I like how the guy says he could push it higher, that our customers are willing to go higher than $140 per hour. Well, duh! They have a captive audience. What choice do owners have. Either do the inspection or ground the plane. I have multiple college degrees and 45 years of experience in engineering, and I don’t make much more than $140 per hour for my consulting work. Personally, if shop rates get much higher, I’m going to sell.

 

[Rcmutz]

Except you have to define which part of "GA" is having this problem. In general, GA is thriving. Its only the Part 91 private, recreational portion that is declining and having these issues. But if you want to increase shop availability and expand maintenance opportunities you'll need find a way to increase the number of people who want to become an A&P mechanic, first. Then you can offset the numbers of current mechanics leaving the industry. Once those numbers stabilize, then you can look at how to incentivize those new A&Ps to enter the Part 91 rec mx side. However, you won't be able to replace the experience that is also going out the door.

Unfortunately, the FAA has seen and been told about the same issues you bring up for years, however, they have moved in an opposite for the recreational sector as they expand the repairman authorizations. And if that trend continues, I think you’ll see more opportunities for owners to maintain their private aircraft themselves without a direct need for an A&P.

I like
Mike Bush’s idea about possibly changing the inspection to a 24 month cycle or 100 hrs, which ever comes first. Especially since a lot of GA part 91 aircraft don’t fly more than 40-50 hrs a year.

 

[Bob Noel]

I like
Mike Bush’s idea about possibly changing the inspection to a 24 month cycle or 100 hrs, which ever comes first. Especially since a lot of GA part 91 aircraft don’t fly more than 40-50 hrs a year.

but one component of a lot failure hazard analyses or safety analyses is how frequently components are closely inspected/examined by people with more knowledge/expertise than required by aircraft owners and operators.

What's the technical safety rationale that doubling the time between inspections won't adversely degrade safety? Who can show technical justification that any reduction in safety would be insignficant?

 

[Racerx]

I like how the guy says he could push it higher, that our customers are willing to go higher than $140 per hour. Well, duh! They have a captive audience. What choice do owners have. Either do the inspection or ground the plane. I have multiple college degrees and 45 years of experience in engineering, and I don’t make much more than $140 per hour for my consulting work. Personally, if shop rates get much higher, I’m going to sell.

Is that 145 your hourly?

Mx shops have a ton of overhead. And I'd be willing to bet they're eating hours on most annuals. If I bill out 6 hours per 8 hr day per employee I'm doing good.

 

[Bell206]

I like Mike Bush’s idea about possibly changing the inspection to a 24 month cycle or 100 hrs, which ever comes first. Especially since a lot of GA part 91 aircraft don’t fly more than 40-50 hrs a year.

Except most of the mx issues come from the inactivity over that 12 month cycle vs the 100 hours. MB has never worked professionally as a mechanic, so he lacks the "tribal knowledge," as he calls it, to understand what really happens in the real world. So if you were to go 24 months without even a basic inspection of the aircraft, you'll be surprised how much more your annual costs will go up. However, since the annual also "renews" the AWC at each 12 months to comply with ICAO agreements, I think any Part 91 owner should have the regulatory option to have their aircraft inspected in a similar method that Part 135 operators are allowed, which doesn't require an IA to perform and provides the same AWC renew. There's still a lot more A&Ps out there than ones with an Inspection Authorization.

 

[Rcmutz]

Except most of the mx issues come from the inactivity over that 12 month cycle vs the 100 hours. MB has never worked professionally as a mechanic, so he lacks the "tribal knowledge," as he calls it, to understand what really happens in the real world. So if you were to go 24 months without even a basic inspection of the aircraft, you'll be surprised how much more your annual costs will go up. However, since the annual also "renews" the AWC at each 12 months to comply with ICAO agreements, I think any Part 91 owner should have the regulatory option to have their aircraft inspected in a similar method that Part 135 operators are allowed, which doesn't require an IA to perform and provides the same AWC renew. There's still a lot more A&Ps out there than ones with an Inspection Authorization.

As you all know, parts degrade differently. Some on hours used, some on calendar time. Seems like there is a middle ground that could be found that still protects the integrity of AW, yet provides relief from full IA yearly AW inspections. It will be interesting to see how things develop over the next 5-10 years.

 

[Bell206]

As you all know, parts degrade differently. Some on hours used, some on calendar time.

True. But you'll find lack of use accelerates that degrade across all parts. For example, hoses degrade faster, corrosion sets in deeper, wear rates on rotable/repairable parts increases, etc. And this becomes more obvious when you compare an aircraft that flies 200hrs per year to one that flies 40 hours per year. However, agree there are options to help mitigate this concern as I mentioned above. Unfortunately, any other those options will require regulatory change at the national or international levels which I don't believe has the grassroots level support to initiate those changes within the system. That said, I think one option for Part 91 private aircraft could materialize from the MOSAIC initiative and provide a pathway to include certain private TC aircraft that just might give you the middle ground you seek.

 

[hindsight2020]

Given they won't ever let the facbuilt off the IA/rented-signatory capture, diluting the frequency is certainly an innovative alternative for those who wish to continue to truck on with their cuban taxis to endemic hobby area denial/end-game (whether it's via user fees, or literal airspace denial, remains to be seen). If I wasn't so soured on the repetitive and planned obsolecence motivated ADs plus unobtanium pricing nonsense, I'd almost, almost, be willing to get back in if they gave me the assurance I'd only have to play the signatory game every 24 months. But with MOSAIC granting me an avenue for inspection authority as a non-builder, forget it, not turning back at this point.

What's the technical safety rationale that doubling the time between inspections won't adversely degrade safety? Who can show technical justification that any reduction in safety would be insignficant?

Moot. There's no requirement the rationale need be technical in the first place. An economic rationale for "diluting safety" is already accepted in all manners of aviation sub-categorizations. There's plenty of technical reasons solo 91 flight is less safe than crew 121. That's still not accepted as a reason the latter should be the standard for the former. Nothing technical about it, all economic. I support that compromise, even if it's not maximalist enough for the purity test you're implicating.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Given they won't ever let the facbuilt off the IA/rented-signatory capture, diluting the frequency is certainly an innovative alternative for those who wish to continue to truck on with their cuban taxis to endemic hobby area denial/end-game (whether it's via user fees, or literal airspace denial, remains to be seen). If I wasn't so soured on the repetitive and planned obsolecence motivated ADs plus unobtanium pricing nonsense, I'd almost, almost, be willing to get back in if they gave me the assurance I'd only have to play the signatory game every 24 months. But with MOSAIC granting me an avenue for inspection authority as a non-builder, forget it, not turning back at this point.


Moot. There's no requirement the rationale need be technical in the first place. An economic rationale for "diluting safety" is already accepted in all manners of aviation sub-categorizations. There's plenty of technical reasons solo 91 flight is less safe than crew 121. That's still not accepted as a reason the latter should be the standard for the former. Nothing technical about it, all economic. I support that compromise, even if it's not maximalist enough for the purity test you're implicating.

Consider taking up pickle ball or golf.

 

[kyleb]

Is that 145 your hourly?

Mx shops have a ton of overhead. And I'd be willing to bet they're eating hours on most annuals. If I bill out 6 hours per 8 hr day per employee I'm doing good.

Yep. Dude's gotta take a phone call, use the restroom, grab a cup of coffee, talk to the walk-in guy who needs just one AN-whatever to finish his project. Hard to bill for any of that.

 

[Bell206]

Consider taking up pickle ball or golf.

Doubtful. He still hasn’t figured out he’s the gatekeeper regardless the aircraft category. First, it was TC’d aircraft. Then, E/AB. And now LSA. Perhaps one day he’ll figure out every time he points his finger at something or someone over his issues, there’s always 3 fingers pointing back at him. Oh, woe is me…

 

[JimBirk]

When somebody asks me for an hourly rate in my custom software development business, I sometimes ask the person, jokingly, "what do you want it to be?" They, usually get excited and say something like, "I want it to be $1 per hour!" I tell them, fine, and that the job will likely take a couple of years to complete. I then inform them that if they want the job to be done in a few days, I can give them an estimate based on a higher hourly rate!

 

[Lon Stratton]

When somebody asks me for an hourly rate in my custom software development business, I sometimes ask the person, jokingly, "what do you want it to be?" They, usually get excited and say something like, "I want it to be $1 per hour!" I tell them, fine, and that the job will likely take a couple of years to complete. I then inform them that if they want the job to be done in a few days, I can give them an estimate based on a higher hourly rate!

This supports my thinking that there is no such thing as an hourly rate. "What will it cost to complete the job?" That is the only question.

 

[Bell206]

This supports my thinking that there is no such thing as an hourly rate. "What will it cost to complete the job?" That is the only question.

I've always viewed my hourly rate as a benchmark since that is what my customers expected and would understand in general. Even when I had used a fixed rate for certain tasks like 100hr inspections, I would always have to itemize out the labor, so I dropped that pricing model for a straight fixed hour only estimate, if that makes sense.

However, the hardest part to estimate was the research side which I generally included an additional 1-2 hours into the fixed hour estimate unless it was a known issue up front and recieved a separate estimate. For me it was the research time that accounted for more unbillable hours than any other work distractions as mentioned above.

 

[Lon Stratton]

I've always viewed my hourly rate as a benchmark since that is what my customers expected and would understand in general. Even when I had used a fixed rate for certain tasks like 100hr inspections, I would always have to itemize out the labor, so I dropped that pricing model for a straight fixed hour only estimate, if that makes sense.

However, the hardest part to estimate was the research side which I generally included an additional 1-2 hours into the fixed hour estimate unless it was a known issue up front and recieved a separate estimate. For me it was the research time that accounted for more unbillable hours than any other work distractions as mentioned above.

Benchmark is a good description. I'm also in a business that likes an hourly rate and I make it up every time. Customers never ask me the hourly rate, they just want to know the cost.

I agree about charging for research and paperwork. That takes up valuable time and I never balk at paying for that.

 

[Dana]

When I was self employed (engineering), I worked mostly hourly. Everything related to the project was billable. I gave my customers my best estimate of how long it would take, and usually came in under, unless they asked for changes along the way. In the rare event a customer insisted on a firm price, I would figure it as double my hourly estimate (and I was up front about this). Only once did I get burned on a fixed price job.

 

[Bell206]

Everything related to the project was billable.

This is one of the bigger differences for the aircraft mx business. There's an unwritten owner rule somewhere that they shouldnt have to pay for a mechanic to learn how to perform a task since they already had their A&P. Thankfully, not every owner followed that rule.

 

[schmookeeg]

Last year up here the majors were offering green A&Ps something like a $100,000 bonus to sign on and stay on mainline for 3 years. And enjoy the benefits of a labor union and generous benefits.

I can't imagine recommending anyone pursue A&P with intent to pursue GA. I'd sooner suggest they open a restaurant.

Shop rates here are nearly $200. Shops are booked out months and nothing gets completed. It's a shiz show. Every once in awhile I think about running a shop again, it's not baaaaaad, but it's a labor of love, not a scrooge mcduck situation.

 

[Bacho]

I like how the guy says he could push it higher, that our customers are willing to go higher than $140 per hour. Well, duh! They have a captive audience. What choice do owners have. Either do the inspection or ground the plane. I have multiple college degrees and 45 years of experience in engineering, and I don’t make much more than $140 per hour for my consulting work. Personally, if shop rates get much higher, I’m going to sell.

I kind of think this attitude is the problem. Your hourly wage has nothing to do with what ACMX should cost. If you normally make $140 an hour, I would wager you’re making over $100 more per hour than the A&P wrenching on your aircraft.

My IA was charging $120 an hour. Always being too nice and helping on the price. He wasn’t making any real money and couldn’t afford to keep experienced mechanics. He decided to throw in the towel when the airport tripled his rent. He was always concerned about the number of people on the field who could barely afford it as it was.

I now have some guilt over the situation in allowing all of the “free” services he provided. When I first heard wind of this rent increase, I should’ve begged him to go to $200. Maybe the cold hard truth is a bunch of cheapskate owners like myself need to be flushed out of the system.

IMO, experienced A&Ps need to be making top regional airline pay at a minimum to keep these guys. Even then, they’re probably leaving almost 100K a year on the table when compared to leaving for a major.

 

[Pugs]

A shop out of CT (New England Aero Services) just bought the main side of our local FBO. I just got the bill yesterday for an oil change for the club Archer. $453.97 That's over $100 more than what the previous owners were charging. Filter price markup 25%, oil markup 50%, charged 2 hours at $130. Well, we're done with that. I'd prefer to do the changes ourselves but the club doesn't want to but another owner in our hangar row is an A&P (who flies his Mooney to work elsewhere) and says he'll do it for $200 including the filter with us providing the oil. We're going to be clear with the new owners why we're leaving.

So, we're now going to shop our annuals as well, unless they understand that NH is not CT and we'll not put up with such. Any shops folks like in the NH, ME, VT, MA area for annuals?