Selling my Baby.

Aztec Driver

Aztec Driver

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
Messages
982
Location
Elizabethtown, PA
Display Name
Display name:
Bryon
With the economy the way it is, no longer having an aircraft partner, and using the airplane as little as I do anymore, I am revisiting the idea of selling my airplane and just renting one when I want to use one. I now have access to a larger, faster, more comfortable plane (albeit more expensive to operate) on the few times I want something with performance.

Now I just need to assess the value of the plane with some kind of accuracy. Obviously it is all market driven, but the prices of these seem to be all over the place. Quite a few of them, I believe, are the "See Honey, I have it for sale" pricing, while some are astonishingly low.

With the equipment I have on board, it is a hard comparison to make.

1966 Twin Comanche PA30B
~1500 on both engines since MOH
1 prop ~50 hours since MOH
1 prop ~1500 hours since MOH
All ADs kept up with.
90 gal fuel
Interior 7
Exterior 7
Single Aspen PFD unit
STEC 30 w ALT hold
430W
GPS steering
Backup Horizon and DG
KX155 w/ind no GS

What's something like that worth? What's a good asking price?
 
My ball park would be expect to get $60k.
 
Out of all the light twins, the Twin Comanche and Travelair have held up the best, but even they got hurt. I'd say between $60-$75k depending on condition, SVT, and if the props have recurring ADs. The good thing is with that panel it should sell reasonably quickly.
 
How does that work? Your employer rents you the company airplane at a discount or something? I wonder what the liability associated with that would be.
 
Henning said:
Out of all the light twins, the Twin Comanche and Travelair have held up the best, but even they got hurt. I'd say between $60-$75k depending on condition, SVT, and if the props have recurring ADs. The good thing is with that panel it should sell reasonably quickly.
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No SVT. No recurring prop AD.

Gear bungees replaced last annual. Main 1000 hour gear AD taken care of 2 or 3 years ago. That one was a lot of work, but several bushings were found to be out of tolerance, so I am actually glad we did it.

All 3 landing gear trunnions have been replaced. The nose trunnion had a crack and leaked fluid, and the mains were found to have the spider web cracking prevalent in Twin Comanches, so I had them replaced with the new beefier design.

Interior isn't bad, but the carpet is old and dirty and could use replaced. Exterior looks reasonable, but has some places where the paint was scratched off, especially around the nose bowl cover, which is a difficult item to remove without doing damage to the paint.

I really don't want to sell it, but I just cannot justify the added expense as I get a little farther down the age line. I don't make a ton of money in my professions, so keeping it properly airworthy is a substantial portion of my income. When I had a partner, it was a bit more reasonable, but I still do not use it enough to justify its existence.

How does that work? Your employer rents you the company airplane at a discount or something? I wonder what the liability associated with that would be.
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Everything is part 91, rented out by the owners. I am a rated pilot listed on the insurance. Liability isn't likely a major problem. There are always possible problems, but I am not too concerned.
 
Aw crap. Just as I decide to keep my single, here you go and say this one is for sale.
 
Try calling some of the adds for the same model in trade-a-plane for sale see if they can even draw flies. Unless your willing to sell it at a give away price you might as well keep it and hope for better times.
 
EdFred said:
Aw crap. Just as I decide to keep my single, here you go and say this one is for sale.
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I've been telling you that you were going to buy a Twinkie for what, 5 years now?

Just buy Bryon's and be done with it.
 
Aztec Driver said:
With the economy the way it is, no longer having an aircraft partner, and using the airplane as little as I do anymore, I am revisiting the idea of selling my airplane and just renting one when I want to use one. I now have access to a larger, faster, more comfortable plane (albeit more expensive to operate) on the few times I want something with performance.

Now I just need to assess the value of the plane with some kind of accuracy. Obviously it is all market driven, but the prices of these seem to be all over the place. Quite a few of them, I believe, are the "See Honey, I have it for sale" pricing, while some are astonishingly low.

With the equipment I have on board, it is a hard comparison to make.

1966 Twin Comanche PA30B
~1500 on both engines since MOH
1 prop ~50 hours since MOH
1 prop ~1500 hours since MOH
All ADs kept up with.
90 gal fuel
Interior 7
Exterior 7
Single Aspen PFD unit
STEC 30 w ALT hold
430W
GPS steering
Backup Horizon and DG
KX155 w/ind no GS

What's something like that worth? What's a good asking price?
Click to expand...


How many hours on the airframe.

Off the cuff 75k ish. Probably a bit more with nice paint and a freshened up interior.
 
James331 said:
How many hours on the airframe.

Off the cuff 75k ish. Probably a bit more with nice paint and a freshened up interior.
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5000 ish if memory serves me. Gotta look it up.

I'd love to freshen up the interior and paint, but I can't afford unnecessary items that do nothing for airworthiness, and I could not get the money back out of it anyway. I make sure I keep up with anything that would affect airworthiness and safety, but cosmetics take a back seat.

When I had the partner in the plane, I splurged and spent quite a bit on the panel to make it a good cross country machine.
 
Aztec Driver said:
5000 ish if memory serves me. Gotta look it up.

I'd love to freshen up the interior and paint, but I can't afford unnecessary items that do nothing for airworthiness, and I could not get the money back out of it anyway. I make sure I keep up with anything that would affect airworthiness and safety, but cosmetics take a back seat.

When I had the partner in the plane, I splurged and spent quite a bit on the panel to make it a good cross country machine.
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Carpet is very cheap, buff out the windows and make them as good as they can be. Windows are the biggest visual impact item when evaluating a vehicle, anyone with smarts in the car business knows clean windows sell cars. If the carpet the is grungy, fresh carpet will really brighten and perk up the whole interior. Take Collenite Insulator Wax to the entire interior, anything that isn't fabric, especially the panel, just hit everything. It brightens up and cleans old headliners, vinyl, and leather upholstery.
 
Has the twin market recovered?

I had a couple of friends who basically gave their twins (an Aztec, and an Aerostar) away a couple of years ago.

The Aerostar was especially tough. He had to put a $60K glass panel in it before anyone would even seriously look at it, and then he ended up selling for $120K. Who would ever imagine an absolutely cherry Aerostar selling for a (net) $60K?

Hell, I think the Italian leather interior in that plane cost $30K+ alone, just a few years ago.

The Aztec guy ended up swapping the plane and some used cars to a car dealer, in exchange for some new cars. It was the only way to get rid of it.

I tell you what, if you wanted/needed a twin, these last few years have been like winning the lottery. If you needed to sell one, though...
 
It has not recovered. And it won't.

I sold my Aerostar for $127K with two brand new engines on it. In hindsight should have spent it on bling: glass panel and new paint and interior. People don't pay for engines, which makes any engine overhaul a losing affair (unless you plan on keeping a plane forever). And if you go for a factory new engines which some suggest "because it adds value", they're talking out of their a**. Yeah, it might add a few thousand bucks on sale price, but nowhere near the cost.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Has the twin market recovered?

I had a couple of friends who basically gave their twins (an Aztec, and an Aerostar) away a couple of years ago.

The Aerostar was especially tough. He had to put a $60K glass panel in it before anyone would even seriously look at it, and then he ended up selling for $120K. Who would ever imagine an absolutely cherry Aerostar selling for a (net) $60K?

Hell, I think the Italian leather interior in that plane cost $30K+ alone, just a few years ago.

The Aztec guy ended up swapping the plane and some used cars to a car dealer, in exchange for some new cars. It was the only way to get rid of it.

I tell you what, if you wanted/needed a twin, these last few years have been like winning the lottery. If you needed to sell one, though...
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No, however the Twin Comanche and Travelair markets took a smaller hit than most twins, because you can actually operate them for less$$$ than their 260/285/300hp HP SE stable mates; that really burned my buddy when I had a Travelair and he had V-35.:lol:
 
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Henning said:
No, however the Twin Comanche and Travelair markets took a smaller hit than most twins, because you can actually operate them for less$$$ than their 260/285/300hp HP SE stable mates; that really burned my buddy when I had a Travelair and he had V-35.:lol:
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How is that possible with twice the engine, props, accessories and a lower gas mileage? Haven't owned either, just generally curious.
 
hindsight2020 said:
How is that possible with twice the engine, props, accessories and a lower gas mileage? Haven't owned either, just generally curious.
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Yeah not sure it is possible, shy of a 500+ hp single.
 
EdFred said:
Aw crap. Just as I decide to keep my single, here you go and say this one is for sale.
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I was just going to say trade Ed for his Single Comanche and you can fly a plane that costs less to get in the air.
 
hindsight2020 said:
How is that possible with twice the engine, props, accessories and a lower gas mileage? Haven't owned either, just generally curious.
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It's not lower gas mileage. A Twin Comanche will go just as fast if not faster than many of the single Comanches on the same, if not less fuel burn. A PA30 is a very efficient airplane.

But, that is fuel cost alone. I don't think a PA30 is going to be less on annual maintenance or insurance.
 
The twin market depends on the Twin. The higher end, later model Twin Cessnas have been seeing recoveries. I'm seeing 414As and 421Cs go in the $400k-$500k range for a really nice one. FIKI 310Rs are also seeing a nice comeback.

Aztecs are hard to sell. Short nose 310s are hard to sell. Twin Comanches have appeal to some, but still hard to sell overall.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The twin market depends on the Twin. The higher end, later model Twin Cessnas have been seeing recoveries. I'm seeing 414As and 421Cs go in the $400k-$500k range for a really nice one. FIKI 310Rs are also seeing a nice comeback.



Aztecs are hard to sell. Short nose 310s are hard to sell. Twin Comanches have appeal to some, but still hard to sell overall.
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This. Depends a lot on the particular type and the particulars. I don't know that any GA market is doing "well", but some markets are clearly moving better than others.
 
hindsight2020 said:
How is that possible with twice the engine, props, accessories and a lower gas mileage? Haven't owned either, just generally curious.
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Because they are cheaper engines. An IO-320/360 that is operated regularly is extremely inexpensive to own and keep running (using an aircraft scale...) and will consistently go well beyond TBO with very little spent on them. Take my BE-95 for instance, for T/O and climb performance I have 75 hp on a 285hp Bonanza and I am making .5hp/cuin to his .54, so already my engines aren't working as hard at rated power. My cost is ~5hp nacelle drag. Now we shift into cruise and pull back to 250hp for him and 255 for me to match speeds. He's got to run 87% power ROP while I'm at 70% LOP, and we're both flowing about 16.5gph to do 165. He's operating a big bore Continental ROP, you do a top end mid time operating them like that. The price to overhaul an IO-520 is nearly twice that of an O-360, so the difference at overhaul time isn't great, plus you can stagger the costs into halves typically so the ready reserve doesn't need to be as great.

If you want a twin to efficiently haul you and a light load around, the Travelair and Twin Comanche are very attractive propositions.
 
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kyleb said:
Why's that different from any other ~1960 twin? Age? Over-wing exhaust issue? Big engines/fuel burn?

Just curious...
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With 310s, basically anything other than an R is hard (which is any short nose - the R is the long nose). All 310s cost about the same to operate, so most want the newest/best available (Rs are a bit more due to the 520s). There are advantages to some older models, but the overwing exhaust is a big negative (mostly because you lose the wing lockers), and I forget what year they added the large baggage door. The 310 changed a lot from the A model to the R model, so if you buy one, research is prudent.

Barons seem to do better, although I'm not a fan of them.
 
Fearless Tower said:
This. Depends a lot on the particular type and the particulars. I don't know that any GA market is doing "well", but some markets are clearly moving better than others.
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It basically is the markets that serve people who use GA as a tool to get places on a schedule and can afford it. Those people tend to gravitate towards the pressurized cabin class planes. The Twin Cessnas in this market are semi-economical (when compared to turboprops) and provide a lot for the money. Many of them also want FIKI, which is why the later models with FIKI are especially seeing prices go up.

If you're in the "toy" realm of aviation, prices continue to be depressed. These are expensive toys.
 
Gubbins said:
Why is that? Just curious.
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I don't like the T-bar yoke, the cabin is very narrow, don't like the levers up high, and they're no faster than an equivalent 310.

Of course, the market disagrees with me, hence the popularity of Barons.
 
Yes, the high end tends to attract business flyers. But the thing is, once you get up to mint condition cabin class twins that are pressurized, you might as well go to a turbine twin. You'll spend less on fuel, go faster, and have much more reliability. Your engine reserves go up, of course, but with the longer TBO's I would say it's on par with a GTSIO engine overhaul. Basically, you're operating costs end up about the same.

So the low end toy plane is crushed, and so is the highest end. Maybe the middle end, i.e. Baron, is actually the best place to be. Or put another way - that's where you might end up losing the least when you sell...;)
 
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I agree about the pressurized twin vs turbine, at least so far! :rolleyes:
My same trip fuel burn is higher with the 425, but with the cost difference in fuel it's pretty minimal. It's amazing the price difference atsome airports between 100LL and Jet A, sometimes it's over $1.00 per gallon and that makes up for some of the higher fuel burn. The airframe maintenance is basically the same, the biggest differences are engine and prop expenses. Turbines tend to be more predictable, not as many unscheduled items, but the scheduled ones tend to be a little more costly. ;) I figure my 425 costs me about $100 per hour more than my 421B, if I am wrong I don't want to know about it. :D

stratobee said:
Yes, the high end tends to attract business flyers. But the thing is, once you get up to mint condition cabin class twins that are pressurized, you might as well go to a turbine twin. You'll spend less on fuel, go faster, and have much more reliability. Your engine reserves go up, of course, but with the longer TBO's I would say it's on par with a GTSIO engine overhaul. Basically, you're operating costs end up about the same.

So the low end toy plane is crushed, and so is the highest end. Maybe the middle end, i.e. Baron, is actually the best place to be. Or put another way - that's where you might end up losing the least when you sell...;)
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N747JB said:
I agree about the pressurized twin vs turbine, at least so far! :rolleyes:
My same trip fuel burn is higher with the 425, but with the cost difference in fuel it's pretty minimal. It's amazing the price difference atsome airports between 100LL and Jet A, sometimes it's over $1.00 per gallon and that makes up for some of the higher fuel burn. The airframe maintenance is basically the same, the biggest differences are engine and prop expenses. Turbines tend to be more predictable, not as many unscheduled items, but the scheduled ones tend to be a little more costly. ;) I figure my 425 costs me about $100 per hour more than my 421B, if I am wrong I don't want to know about it. :D
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That's what I keep hearing from my friends as well - about $100 more per hour, give or take. And if you shop around for fuel, or even join a fuel program like CAA etc, you can fill up for almost half as much as Avgas, so the saving is already done there, the extra speed is just gravy. You often se reduced Jet fuel at $3-3.50 these days.
 
John,
Haul that 421 up to CNI. 100LL is about $3.70/gal, SS now. Cheapest around on the North side.

With fuel that cheap its practically free to fly.:D
 
Since John is now flying the 425, I can't imagine he's too keen on throwing 100LL in. :eek:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Since John is now flying the 425, I can't imagine he's too keen on throwing 100LL in. :eek:
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He'll get really good power for a little while...temps might run a little high...
 
Clark1961 said:
He'll get really good power for a little while...temps might run a little high...
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Actually you can put 100LL in turbines. The manuals have specific allowances for how much is allowed per TBO.

But it's not a good idea for extended periods.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Actually you can put 100LL in turbines. The manuals have specific allowances for how much is allowed per TBO.

But it's not a good idea for extended periods.
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It would smell soooo much better on 100LL. I hate jet A.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Actually you can put 100LL in turbines. The manuals have specific allowances for how much is allowed per TBO.

But it's not a good idea for extended periods.
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From what I recall from the 502, it also caused some serious reductions in TBO and HS times. IIRC Al Martin told me the turbines burning purple gas (130) on the B-36 would do two sorties between overhauls, and didn't get used the whole time. Something like 20hr TBO on AvGas.
 
bnt83 said:
It would smell soooo much better on 100LL. I hate jet A.
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I love the smell of Jet-A in the morning!! Only when I'm burning it, on my clothes, no so much! :D
 
ChemGuy said:
John,
Haul that 421 up to CNI. 100LL is about $3.70/gal, SS now. Cheapest around on the North side.

With fuel that cheap its practically free to fly.:D
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I'll be up there Monday for a couple phase inspections! I always buy as much as I can, they are usually $1.50-2.00 cheaper than FTY!!! And they do all my maintenance. :yes:
Jet-A is $3.08 there right now!!! :yes:
 
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