Scary flight scenario - a tale of 2 pilots.....

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Scrabo, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. Scrabo

    Scrabo Pattern Altitude

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    Scenario - a pilot, aged over 76, has over 900 hours total flight time, less than 7 in this particular make/model (high performance) aircraft ( it was a rental I believe)

    A friend of mine (also a pilot with 1500+ hours) was recently offered to be right seat to this individual for a breakfast flight and told me afterwards never again, not once did the PIC use a checklist and boasted that with his 900+ hours he really didn’t need to, it was all “up here” !!

    My friend said it was the scariest flight he has ever been on and would never fly again with the PIC, not only did the PIC not use a checklist but often the PIC was getting behind the plane.

    Sounds to me that the PIC 900+ hours has made them very complacent and that never ends well.

    I don’t know the PIC personally but I suspect he would not take any feedback well.
     
  2. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    There are a number of "aging pilot" seminars making the rounds. I went to one recently done by a 70+ year old ATP/phisician. Very eye-opening and valuable. One if the things he talked about was the increased necessity of good flow/checklist procedures.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  3. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    doesn't use checklist...…………..




    deleteme4.jpg
     
  4. spiderweb

    spiderweb Final Approach

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    Getting behind the airplane is the more telling part of this. A checklist might have made him get even more behind which means that he needs more practice or training, assuming the story has been told objectively (you are just reporting it).
     
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  5. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    There are a large amount of complacent pilots flying. I know quite a few pilots on there 70s that don’t get behind the airplane,just saying.
     
  6. Art Rose

    Art Rose Pre-Flight

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    The pilot did, or didn't do this, or that, behind the plane, dangerous, bla bla, bla. One man's opinion, and now it's up for a second or third hand discussion.
    Opinion? If I wasn't there, I wouldn't spread rumor and conjecture. Granted, the guy might be a smokin hole waiting to happen, but who are we to judge?

    Aged over 76. I flew aerobatics practically every weekend, for several years, with a good friend and excellent pilot who was in his early eighties when he introduced me to things that I never knew an airplane could do, especially with me on the stick. What does age have to do with this?

    900 hrs total flight time. It takes more than a year or two of experience to rack up that many logged hours. 7 hrs in make and model? For a current and experienced light plane pilot, that's plenty of time to prove competence and satisfy most any normal rental requirement.

    To rent, he was judged by someone who was qualified to judge his ability, or he wouldn't have been allowed to be PIC. What are your friends credentials, other than 1500 hrs?

    High performance. What does that mean? Over 200 hp, cowl flaps, c/s, a gear lever, a twin, a turbine? If it was a C-210, or similar, big whoop. What were they flying?

    Didn't use a checklist. Year round, I fly my plane at least weekly, normally more often, and yes, I have a checklist in the cockpit, but I rarely pull it out. I have a strict routine I use for every flight. You'd never want to fly with me.

    Honestly, if I took you along, and I had any idea you would spread b.s. like this about me after the flight, I'd give you a ride worthy of the scary flight scenario-a tale of two pilots. Unlike the pilot you're reporting on though, I'd accept your feedback.......as soon as you pulled your head out of the sic sac.
     
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  7. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    I flew with a guy once who did use checklists and he was the scariest person I've flown with to date.
     
  8. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    I flew professionally with my Dad from the time he was 57 until he retired at age 70. What I noticed in him was a significant decrease in situational awareness as he aged. After being cleared for takeoff with the control lock still installed for the second time, his business partner convinced him that he needed to learn to use checklists. He did, and things started getting done properly again.
     
  9. Stingray Don

    Stingray Don Pattern Altitude

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    In that person’s defense, you haven’t flown with me yet. :)
     
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  10. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    duly noted!
     
  11. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I haven’t used a checklist since my checkride.


    I kid I kid....
     
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  12. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

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    What’s a checklist?

    The only checklist I need is GUMPS



    Just kidding
     
  13. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It's scary as chit, til you are the old guy!
     
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  14. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    'Dog? o_O
     
  15. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Give eman more credit than that.
     
  16. Scrabo

    Scrabo Pattern Altitude

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    >> What are your friends credentials, other than 1500 hrs?

    CFII

    Its not an age thing in my book, I know many 70+ pilots flying today, I think its more the mindset of this one particular guy - it's the "I don't need no stinking checklist" mentality.

    Might explain why apparently he took off last year in his own plane with the pitot cover still on.

    Complacent can kill.
     
  17. Somedudeintn

    Somedudeintn Cleared for Takeoff

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    You should be able to fly by pitch/power without an ASI, but I get the point you are making.
     
  18. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    My personal checklist use is better now than it was three years ago. I wasn't having any issues like that (I check for "free and correct" 3 times before engine start) but decided I needed to develop a better SOP and make it a habit well before it became a necessity.
     
  19. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    The only thing about the checklist non-usage that raises alarm bells for me is how little time he has in make and model. I don't use the checklist very much any more in my own plane, but I have over 600 hours in it, more than enough time to develop a pretty bulletproof flow routine. I had about 600 hours in my logbook when I had only 7 hours in the plane, but you can bet I used the checklist back then, and for quite a few hours after.

    Getting behind the plane would be the more serious concern for me - means the pilot needs either more dual or more time solo getting to know the plane better, before taking up any passengers.
     
  20. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Final Approach

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    Now stop dissin Bryan like that...
     
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  21. RDUPilot

    RDUPilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    @eman1200 could have a split personality and be talking about himself... :eek:

    just sayin...
     
  22. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Why? o_O
     
  23. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It'd be interesting to see his positive exchange of controls.
     
  24. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    He has one of those single "throw over" Bo controls on his Bomooney. That would be interesting.
     
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  25. RDUPilot

    RDUPilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Which one is PIC?
     
  26. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    I've been known to say "here, hold this side stick"
     
  27. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Left brain or right brain?
     
  28. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    I went through something like that. After about 25 years off I started flying again. I always and still do checklists religiously. However, when I started up again they were putting me down the sheeter. The rental planes I was flying had these checklists in them that were like reading a novel. Sporty’s and other Aviation stores have all kinds of versions in all kinds of formats in all sizes of print. I now make my own. Based on the POH, of course.
     
  29. Scrabo

    Scrabo Pattern Altitude

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    >> I always and still do checklists religiously.

    I am the same, especially if I haven’t flown for a week or two, for the extra minute or so it takes.
     
  30. Challenged

    Challenged Cleared for Takeoff

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    I consider myself an overly cautious pilot, but you guys have me questioning myself as I don't even know the last time I used a checklist.
     
  31. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    I use a checklist after every single flight. oh, sorry, that's a 'checkbook', nevermind….
     
  32. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Final Approach

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    Makes cents to me.
     
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  33. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    Cha-CHING
     
  34. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Checklists are important, issue with much of the lack of use is overly large checklists that don't match flows, and people not being taught to do flows and follow up with the checklist. Ofcourse getting behind the plane is no bueno and makes me wonder how much time in type he has.

    Also my retort to a 70 year old with 900hrs referencing said hours, ether he got into aviation late in life, or he doesn't fly much at all, 900hrs for a 70yr old is VERY low.
     
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  35. Stingray Don

    Stingray Don Pattern Altitude

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    I would do a “GUMPS” check, but I have a 172, so it is just an “M” check. o_O
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  36. Eric Gleason

    Eric Gleason Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it seems to me that @Scrabo's complaint about not using the checklist was that the guy wasn't accomplishing all the necessary tasks. Lots of us don't use checklists, opting for a "flow" that's so well ingrained that it's easier to just do the tasks than it is to read the list.

    I always use the written checklist for before takeoff. I never use one for pre-flight or before landing.
     
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  37. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That's not how flows work.

    You do your flow AND follow it up with a checklist, the checklist confirms you didn't miss anything.


    https://ti.arc.nasa.gov/m/profile/adegani/Cockpit Checklists.pdf
     
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  38. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform Pattern Altitude

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    I think I’m on version 10 of my own checklist after a year of ownership, tweaking and moving things around to reduce potential for errors and making the “flows” more intuitive, while not affecting safety. Getting rid of things like “start” and “apply brakes”. Short and easy to memorize. Probably could be shorter eventually.
     
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  39. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    new and improved, updated checklist:

    Plane.....start
    Plane.....fly
    Plane.....land
    Plane.....shutdown
     
  40. 35 AoA

    35 AoA Cleared for Takeoff

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    900 hours, especially in that sort of flying, is not much. Couple that with being a bit older, and it isn't surprising. My old man is in his 80's now, and with 10,000+ hours in much heavier metal in his books, I have still cringed a few times watching him get behind in a pretty basic GA single in his retired years. I think if the older gentlemen amongst us flew every day like many of us who fly professionally do, the age would be a non-issue. And that isn't to say that there aren't intrepid older aviators who do just that. But when you take this skill, and ultimately turn it into a very part time hobby, some of the sharp edge of the blade gets dulled over many years of minimal reps and sets. Just my impression, doesn't mean it is correct. I'm sure there are some old guys on here who will quickly be telling me to get off their damn lawn :)