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cowman

cowman

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Cowman
This wasn't a big deal just wondering if I did right or wrong here...

I was coming in to my home airport of KEAU... class D. I'd already called the tower and told them I was inbound, they told me to expect a straight in for 22 which is what I thought would happen.

Our regional airliner came in shortly thereafter from Chicago and the tower asked for my position. I was right over a large- the only large lake in the area. Maybe it's my VFR mindset but I figured this would be a better position report than some number of miles so I responded "I'm over lake Wissota". Tower replied with "and how many miles is that from the airport?".

I responded with the miles and no big deal but I thought ATC guys were supposed to know where stuff like that was around their airspace? Should I have been more specific like... on the north end of lake wissota? Or should I not use landmarks anymore and stick to distance and a compass direction?
 
The little flags on a sectional are VFR checkpoints. I'm assuming they'd know where those are. I know I've heard pilots around here report "the bridge" (which has a flag).
 

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cowman said:
This wasn't a big deal just wondering if I did right or wrong here...

I was coming in to my home airport of KEAU... class D. I'd already called the tower and told them I was inbound, they told me to expect a straight in for 22 which is what I thought would happen.

Our regional airliner came in shortly thereafter from Chicago and the tower asked for my position. I was right over a large- the only large lake in the area. Maybe it's my VFR mindset but I figured this would be a better position report than some number of miles so I responded "I'm over lake Wissota". Tower replied with "and how many miles is that from the airport?".

I responded with the miles and no big deal but I thought ATC guys were supposed to know where stuff like that was around their airspace? Should I have been more specific like... on the north end of lake wissota? Or should I not use landmarks anymore and stick to distance and a compass direction?
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I'm guessing that is a big landmark near the airport which they should know. At my home airport, local pilots will rarely give mileage and most of the time give them reporting landmarks like Walt Whitman Mall, Long Island Expressway, Northport Stacks, Captree Bridge, etc. The controllers know all these landmarks and are often given as reporting points for inbound traffic.
 
If it's a bold landmark label on a sectional, then they probably know it, but don't assume. Anything else and all bets are off. Distance and bearing are always best; the controller is doing mental time/distance calculations. Giving him a landmark mans he needs to mentally convert that into distance to figure how far out you are.

Related: in Canada, I thought it was interesting that pilots reported "minutes out", rather than distance from the airport they're approaching. Makes sense, particularly if two aircraft with dissimilar speeds are approaching at the same time.
 
If it wasn't a marked reporting point, it could be the controller knew where you were, but he might have figured the other pilot wasn't familiar and wanted to help that guy's situational awareness.
 
Brad Z said:
Related: in Canada, I thought it was interesting that pilots reported "minutes out", rather than distance from the airport they're approaching. Makes sense, particularly if two aircraft with dissimilar speeds are approaching at the same time.
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Or if the tower is unfamiliar with the airplane type maybe. I was 20+ miles from a class D and said so on initial call up. The guy asked me to call him again when I was closer.

I was in a mooney, doing 170kt ground speed. In just under 7 minutes I'm going to be directly overhead. I suppose my radio work makes me sound like I should be doing Cessna speeds, but I'm not. :)
 
Looking at the sectional again, I guess the lake isn't actually named, although a private strip by it is named "wissota" and it isn't flagged but it's pretty much the most prominent geographical feature in the area. There's a spot just labeled "plant" on the sectional that is actually Nestle... and everyone including CFIs I have worked with will call up the tower and say they're by Nestle and the tower knows that.

I'm thinking he either just wanted a more precise answer... it is a big lake.. or he didn't know or want to try to figure out how many miles away it is.

The regional reported he had me on his PCAS beforehand and then visually right after I reported over the lake.
 
cowman said:
Or should I not use landmarks anymore and stick to distance and a compass direction?
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Yes, you should stick to distance/direction, unless it's published as a visual checkpoint on the sectional as described above.
 
I have done something like this as well and had the same response from the controller. No big deal. Just gave the mileage like you did.
 
Assuming no GPS and no DME, how would you quickly tell the controller your distance? Guess it? Glance at the sectional?
 
Actually, if it's your home airport, ask for a tower tour. A view of the radar display will show you exactly which landmarks they know.

Not all Class D's have radar, but if there is s nearby B or C or military D, they may have a feed.
 
I mean, the controllers here know the area very well and almost expect we do as well. They'll commonly request we report "over the red water tower" or "over the tape plant". They'll also tell us pattern instructions referencing specific roads such as "enter midfield downwind for 36, remain east of 51." or "enter base south of 13." I figured this was just standard procedure.
 
MAKG1 said:
Use the RUNWAY. You are required by regulation to have reviewed its length.
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That might work in CA but around here in the summer? I'm not seeing the airport beyond 6 miles or so. Wisconsin probably isn't as bad.

Besides, it'd be easier (and more accurate) to simply look at the chart than to do all the mental math required to use the runway as a yardstick.
 
Distance and direction,or you may get the question,ten miles in what direction.
 
Just guesstimate a distance and direction. They aren't looking for you to gnats*** it. They just want to get a rough idea of where to look for you and sequence you into the pattern. Unless it is a flag landmark on the sectional I don't use landmarks. Some controllers know local landmarks and some don't.
 
cowman said:
I'm thinking he either just wanted a more precise answer... it is a big lake.. or he didn't know or want to try to figure out how many miles away it is.

The regional reported he had me on his PCAS beforehand and then visually right after I reported over the lake.
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That lake is about 3 miles in length, so your position could have varied by that much. You could have defined it more accurately by reporting over the south shore for example.
He was probably looking for a mileage number rather than a landmark for sequencing faster traffic.
It's not a big deal either way, just file it away for future knowledge, it's something you learned that day.
 
MAKG1 said:
Actually, if it's your home airport, ask for a tower tour. A view of the radar display will show you exactly which landmarks they know.

Not all Class D's have radar, but if there is s nearby B or C or military D, they may have a feed.
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This. Just recently did one at Sugar Land (SGR). All they look at is a screen with distance rings and airports marked. I had the same question about landmarks as you so from now it'll just be "5miles northwest" etc, plenty good for them to spot you. They do, however, have the ability to turn on overlays that show freeways, landmarks, etc. it's just too busy visually so they keep it all off.
 
"Reporting 10 miles, over Candlewood", "5 miles, over the prison", "4 miles, over the high school", "1 mile, over the college", "4 miles, over the land fill".

Our tower knows every landmark ten miles around the airport. Only visitors use distance and compass headings.
 
Shepherd said:
"Reporting 10 miles, over Candlewood", "5 miles, over the prison", "4 miles, over the high school", "1 mile, over the college", "4 miles, over the land fill".

Our tower knows every landmark ten miles around the airport. Only visitors use distance and compass headings.
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Very similar scenario occurs every day at many airports around the country. I've been asked by approach/tower controllers to call out "over (insert local landmark here)" while approaching innumerable airports. After a quick look at the sectional, and determining that it's not a depicted VFR checkpoint, my response is "unable, unfamiliar."
 
F01LA said:
Assuming no GPS and no DME, how would you quickly tell the controller your distance? Guess it? Glance at the sectional?
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Yes. Back in the old days, we had to learn to estimate distance from things on the ground strictly by eye. Controllers know it's only an estimate, and aren't going to hold you accountable for being 8 miles out when you say 7, or vice versa. I realize this is a bit of a lost art for pilots who've never flown without a GPS, but it's still something instructors should work on in primary training.
 
Darsh said:
I mean, the controllers here know the area very well and almost expect we do as well. They'll commonly request we report "over the red water tower" or "over the tape plant". They'll also tell us pattern instructions referencing specific roads such as "enter midfield downwind for 36, remain east of 51." or "enter base south of 13." I figured this was just standard procedure.
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It's not, and you can't count on them knowing any particular landmark on the ground that isn't published on the sectional.
 
At OSU the tower uses highways and highway intersections (315 and 270, 33 and 42..) almost all the time to sequence in arrivals and it's a great way to know where everyone is and makes it easier and more clear for everyone involved. These roads are clear on the sectional and even visitors and jet are often asked to "report over 270" or the like.
 
cowman said:
This wasn't a big deal just wondering if I did right or wrong here...

I was coming in to my home airport of KEAU... class D. I'd already called the tower and told them I was inbound, they told me to expect a straight in for 22 which is what I thought would happen.

Our regional airliner came in shortly thereafter from Chicago and the tower asked for my position. I was right over a large- the only large lake in the area. Maybe it's my VFR mindset but I figured this would be a better position report than some number of miles so I responded "I'm over lake Wissota". Tower replied with "and how many miles is that from the airport?".

I responded with the miles and no big deal but I thought ATC guys were supposed to know where stuff like that was around their airspace? Should I have been more specific like... on the north end of lake wissota? Or should I not use landmarks anymore and stick to distance and a compass direction?
Click to expand...

"I'm over Lake Wissota" would have been a poor response had the question been asked by the regional airliner. I think it a perfectly reasonable one when asked by the tower.
 
cowman said:
This wasn't a big deal just wondering if I did right or wrong here...

I was coming in to my home airport of KEAU... class D. I'd already called the tower and told them I was inbound, they told me to expect a straight in for 22 which is what I thought would happen.

Our regional airliner came in shortly thereafter from Chicago and the tower asked for my position. I was right over a large- the only large lake in the area. Maybe it's my VFR mindset but I figured this would be a better position report than some number of miles so I responded "I'm over lake Wissota". Tower replied with "and how many miles is that from the airport?".

I responded with the miles and no big deal but I thought ATC guys were supposed to know where stuff like that was around their airspace? Should I have been more specific like... on the north end of lake wissota? Or should I not use landmarks anymore and stick to distance and a compass direction?
Click to expand...

It's never okay to use local landmarks for positions reporting, not even if at Unicom and you assume everyone else in the air is a local. Guys who do that are deemed 'amateur' and even a little dangerous.

Try and use distance in knots, compass cardinals, altitude, aviation waypoints like a VFR waypoint or a VOR or a named intersection.

Thus, tree miles south west RHD inbound at two-thousand five-hundred full stop is what they are looking for... even if giving a progress position.
 
Brad Z said:
If it's a bold landmark label on a sectional, then they probably know it, but don't assume. Anything else and all bets are off. Distance and bearing are always best; the controller is doing mental time/distance calculations. Giving him a landmark mans he needs to mentally convert that into distance to figure how far out you are.
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No they're not. Giving the controller a position over a known landmark provides an accurate distance and direction. Providing distance without knowing how it was derived can only be considered the pilot's best estimate and many pilots are very bad at estimating distance.
 
roncachamp said:
No they're not. Giving the controller a position over a known landmark provides an accurate distance and direction. Providing distance without knowing how it was derived can only be considered the pilot's best estimate and many pilots are very bad at estimating distance.
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:yeahthat:
It's amazing how inaccurate many position reports are. On my first solo I heard this...

Pilot: "State tower Cessna 12345 is 10 miles east of the field, inbound for touch and go with hotel"

Tower: "By 10 miles east do you mean more like ten miles SOUTH WEST?"
 
timwinters said:
Sure it is---like I said at "innumerable" airports I've been to across the midwest, plains and south---it's just not the official published procedure.
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If it isn't written down, it doesn't exist, even if some tower controllers do it anyway. Further, if a controller does that, the pilot is responsible for knowing exactly what it means, and if not, obtaining clarification immediately. OTOH, if the pilot says "7 miles NW", there is no further clarification necessary. So, I'll stick with the book on this one.
 
Ron Levy said:
If it isn't written down, it doesn't exist, even if some tower controllers do it anyway. Further, if a controller does that, the pilot is responsible for knowing exactly what it means, and if not, obtaining clarification immediately. OTOH, if the pilot says "7 miles NW", there is no further clarification necessary. So, I'll stick with the book on this one.
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You possess a strange understanding of "exist".
 
Ok, some humor. No intention of embarrassing any controllers on this site.

I was flying to a nameless Class D field and reported in that I was 10 miles SE, 3000', landing with information N. The controller asks me to confirm my location and I repeat it. He then asks me to tell him my heading. I report my heading is 300 and that I am 8 miles out.

He gets upset and tells me that I am 8 miles northwest of the airport because I am flying 300. :)
 
Marauder said:
Ok, some humor. No intention of embarrassing any controllers on this site.

I was flying to a nameless Class D field and reported in that I was 10 miles SE, 3000', landing with information N. The controller asks me to confirm my location and I repeat it. He then asks me to tell him my heading. I report my heading is 300 and that I am 8 miles out.

He gets upset and tells me that I am 8 miles northwest of the airport because I am flying 300. :)
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We need a smiley for the JL Picard facepalm.
 
timwinters said:
hmmm...I wonder why they show a bunch of them on the sectional chart?
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VFR waypoints are named and shown. ATC expects those to be used. Just saying I am over John's house, or the parking lot of the big hotel next to the Ford dealership will likely get you ignored.
 
Having a Metal Landing Calculator on board would have eliminated the problem we are told.
 
Controllers........would you rather hear......

We're the 330 @ 11

or

We're NW @ 11

???
 
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roncachamp said:
No they're not. Giving the controller a position over a known landmark provides an accurate distance and direction. Providing distance without knowing how it was derived can only be considered the pilot's best estimate and many pilots are very bad at estimating distance.
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Reading out my gps distance to the airport reference point is worse than reporting a lake several miles in length? That was the known landmark the OP used.

Your advice is fine if I'm over a charted visual landmark, but if not, you're gonna get a bearing and distance, whether you like it or not (well not you, Steven, you're retired now...)
 
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