Sad day in Jackson Hole

Geico266 said:
Good advice. PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) comes in many forms, and not all from the battlefield.
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Been there. Took a long time to recover.
Ben, if you want to talk, give me a call any time. 720-515-2526
 
Doggtyred said:
Ben... Dont be afraid to go talk to someone if you need to. Not everyone is accustomed to dealing with someone actively dying or newly dead. In the Fire/EMS business we have what is called CISD.. while it is mostly peers, there are also trained behavioral professionals. I've known many of my peers who have sought a defusing/debriefing session after particularly ugly EMS or Fire runs...

While you aren't necessarily in the business, they would be the best source for a referral to someone who would be familiar firsthand with "really bad things".

A drink or two is a good thing from time to time, but if you find yourself drinking more and more to cope, drop a dime and make an appt to see someone.
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Thanks sir..... I am an ex racer so my motto was" it happens to the other guy, not me" concept... I don't drink much at all and I can limit that if need be... I am past the shock stage and at the ( mad at the pilot for stalling the plane) stage....

In a couple of more days I will be back to my same old boring self... My biggest concern is what to say to the family... altho I did have a chat just now with one of our good members and I have good foundation of the answer I will give.

I built my own plane and it is extra special, at least to me... and after reading about this guy I concluded we are two identical personalities... I looked close at the motor today and between the supercharger and the trick exhaust... It was a work of art..:yes:

Once again........... God speed to Russ and Carol as they had to be some wonderful folks...
 
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Z06_Mir said:
Leave the gear up until base, if not final. Keep your hand on the gear handle though as it's your first bit of drag you should be adding. I found my 182RG would glide quite well.
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I'll try that again.

Leaving the gear up late makes me nervous about gear up landings, especially since the gear warning will certainly be going off and I would have to ignore it to make the maneuver.

Of course, in a real emergency, get the plane down in one piece even if the gear is up when it happens.
 
To eliminate unnecessary monkey-motion and learn consistency and simplicity for future flying, try the following technique.

1. Bottom of the green MP yields top of the white IAS. Plan descent accordingly.

2. Extend approach flaps for desired pattern speed.

3. Abeam numbers or FAF, extend gear, hand on handle until gear down, indicators and/or other cues (mirrors, etc) cues confirm.

4. Landing assured, extend landing flaps. Extending the final notch of flaps when landing is assured does not threaten a "stabilized approach" for check-ride purposes.









MAKG1 said:
I'll try that again.

Leaving the gear up late makes me nervous about gear up landings, especially since the gear warning will certainly be going off and I would have to ignore it to make the maneuver.

Of course, in a real emergency, get the plane down in one piece even if the gear is up when it happens.
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N801BH said:
He was on a downwind departure that had him/ her headed basically back to Colorado... They had a failure of some sort at about mid field and where I first saw them about the upwind numbers.. In my mind they could have easily done a 180 and landed safely, but kept going ..:sad::sad::sad:
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<Speculation Alert, nothing more>

Seeings how he was a gear head and no doubt knew more about his engine and installation than anyone else on the planet, it seems likely to me that he must have either known what the cause of trouble was, or thought he knew what the problem was. The mystery of why he continued on instead of heading to the runway may well have been because he firmly believed he could fix the problem in the air and be on the way to the destination. When it became clear that the problem wasn't going to resolve itself, then the turn back.

Why the stall, who knows? The usual culprits are trying to stretch a glide, or in attention to attitude and airspeed. Maybe still trying to fix the plane in flight? Again, we're likely to never know the truth.

Just a theory. Sad day for sure, RIP.:(
 
wabower said:
To eliminate unnecessary monkey-motion and learn consistency and simplicity for future flying, try the following technique.

1. Bottom of the green MP yields top of the white IAS. Plan descent accordingly.

2. Extend approach flaps for desired pattern speed.

3. Abeam numbers or FAF, extend gear, hand on handle until gear down, indicators and/or other cues (mirrors, etc) cues confirm.

4. Landing assured, extend landing flaps. Extending the final notch of flaps when landing is assured does not threaten a "stabilized approach" for check-ride purposes.
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Yes, I use similar techniques for normal approaches; generally I let down gear before flaps because Vlo is higher than Vfe in this aircraft. But, this is a power-off 180. Bottom of the green MP is not power off.

The gear warning sets off at about 12 inches MP.
 
So sorry for the OP's first hand experience. What a tragedy.

I knew and worked with Russ and Carol Kamtz in Loveland, CO back in the late 1980's. That was before Russ got into flying.

They are a very kind, thoughtful and generous couple. Russ was a highly skilled and creative craftsman and artisan. He had been a home builder and then began a successful cabinet manufacturing company at the time that I worked with them. Carol was his wife and partner in business.

Over the years Russ built beautifully customized hot rods and applied that skill and experience to the airplanes that he built. What he touched and built became works of art.

I know they will be greatly missed by their families and friends.

Rest in peace.
 
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Geico266 said:
Three for real, yes, and I regularly shut the engine off at 4000-6000' agl and land the plane on the runway. Not to idle.... Prop stopped, and not rotating off. Glide in, even staying in the pattern.

http://youtu.be/_xZmsxEewik
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October-18-2011-20-12-49-DoubleFacePalm.jpg
 
OK, Guy/Gals....

This deal is finally winding down... I was hired by the NTSB to assist the investigator to completely go through that plane with a fine toothed comb. And I mean she / I looked at EVERYTHING... For all the times I made the comment that the NTSB didn't really give a crap about experimentals and not properly investigate their crashes.... I sincerely apologize.. This gal is in the early thirties and probably the smartest young person I have ever met. If she wanted to see a particular bolt, or nut, or bracket, or pushrod or ANYTHING... She and I did what we had to do to get to it...The whole process was tedious, morbid, methodical , and downright fascinating. She left no part aside and she considered all avenues of failure.. I am telling you.... Having her associated with the NTSB is wonderful asset to the flying public.. I didn't hurt that she was kinda cute too.

As it stands now the NTSB released the wreckage to the insurance company on Sat afternoon. Of course they don't work weekends like the NTSB and yours truly so I now have possession of it and it is sitting in my yard to help save on storage fees.. I also have to hand it to this feisty brave gal... After spending days digging through the wreckage of what was a VERY nice, highly modified experimental she had absolutely no problem asking and then getting into my highly modified experimental to fly some flight profiles to try and simulate the fatal flight path and get what seemed like hundreds of pics of the crash site and the valley itself.. The whole time she had a smile on her face and really enjoyed riding in an experimental.. Even after all the time we spent digging through the mess of that RV-7.. I don't know if I should be 20 years younger or her 20 years older but................. I REALLY like her attitude, thought process, curious mind and her outlook on life.. She is gonna make some young man a great catch for sure....

I will go out tomorrow and snap a few pics of the wreckage and if anyone is curious to see how a RV-7 comes apart when it hits mother earth I will email them to you directly and I will not post those horrific pics on the net..... Also, she said there will be a preliminary report in a few days and a final report in a year or so... I will leave it at that but after watching the entire investigation process and her thirst for answers I am 100 % convinced, whatever her conclusion is, no one else could have done it better... I am still on track to send ALL funds that are sent to me by the NTSB, to the LOE fly in reps so they can give it to the family to help offset the costs of the final expenses.


I will say this once again..... Please fly safely, you can turn a perfectly good plane and wonderful humans into another NTSB investigation in the blink of an eye with just one small mistake.....

Godspeed to the couple in N820RV and tailwinds and blue skys to all of you aviators..


Ben
N801BH
 
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Other then waiting for the insurance or family to contact me on the plans to get the wreckage out of my yard this is my final chapter as I just now placed two crosses where the man and lady came to rest.....


Godspeed to those fellow aviators.
 

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That third picture is particularly powerful.

Best wishes to the victim's family as well as yourself.
 
olasek said:
The accident is treated very thoroughly in the book Aftermath in the chapter Door Open to Disaster.
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Something very much like this happened to one of the first Vari-Viggens -- the side-hinged canopy popped open (IIRC, during takeoff), and the pilot went in while trying to close it.

Rutan then did some testing and found that the canopy can be ignored if it opens, and added a secondary latch like the one on a car hood to limit travel if it opens in flight.

I make my own checklists for any plane I buy or build. The first line in all of the IFE lists is "FLY THE AIRCRAFT!"
 
N801BH said:
Well.....

I spent alot of last night giving statements to the NPS agents in charge, took them to the tower so they could obtain the tower tapes... Seems the policy says the tower cannot release them without a proper request.... I offered to help the park rangers in any way I could... So at 7 am this morning they called and asked if I could pull off a miracle....... What a perfect thing to do to get my mind of that fatal nosedive, so I just spent all day working with the NTSB, park rangers and the local sheriff dept.... As soon as the NTSB released the wreckage to be moved I had a construction lift in place with all the straps needed and lifted the mess and slowly moved it into a secured hangar at Jackson Hole Aviation... Thanks Jeff Brown for donating it,,, that guy is # 1 in my book... I then went back with my double axle trailer and picked up what seemed like thousands of pieces of someones dream. loaded it up and it is also in the secured hangar now... The NTSB needed scales to weigh all the cargo, baggage and other stuff so I dug out my digital scales and set it up for her/ ntsb to use.. Everyone I have met so far like the NTSB gal, the investigators from the National Park Service and the local Sheriff have been outstanding in their duties and I have come away with a new found respect for all of those people
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Ben was it Leah Yeager with the NTSB? If so I've worked with her on a couple of crash cases including the Fairchild C-123 crash a few years ago - a real class act.

I'm sure your personal efforts have been greatly appreciated. I always knew you were one of those honorable scoundrel types :D :thumbsup:
 
SoloEqs said:
I would go farther than that -- GO FIND SOMEONE to talk to, whether you think you need it or not. An hour with a crisis counselor doesn't cost much, and at the end you know whether you should come back or not.
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Thanks for the concern......

I did chat with a good friend who is in the "help the mind" business... It was fruitful..... After placing the crosses on the site the other day it felt like the weight was off my shoulder.... I am back to normal..:confused::D..

Altho I do go grocery shopping once a month and this morning it took about 15 seconds to actually pick up the package of ground beef...:redface::(
 
alaskaflyer said:
Ben was it Leah Yeager with the NTSB? If so I've worked with her on a couple of crash cases including the Fairchild C-123 crash a few years ago - a real class act.

I'm sure your personal efforts have been greatly appreciated. I always knew you were one of those honorable scoundrel types :D :thumbsup:
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Hey........ I resemble that (scoundrel) comment..;)..

This gal was Zoe "something" :dunno: out of Boise... A REAL class act for sure..
 
Jim Logajan said:
What Google search yields on that name - an interesting story:

https://www1.cfnc.org/Plan/For_A_Ca...ocsDeBkamqslcckO2KfQXAP3DPAXXAP3DPAX&screen=9
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Yup.... That's her...:yes:..



Zoe Keliher breaks the mold when it comes to aviation accident investigators. Not only is she a female in a male-dominated field, but she is also young. She began her undergraduate degree in aeronautical science at 15 years old. She had a pilot's license by 17. She interned at NTSB while she was an undergraduate to get her foot in the door.
"During my undergrad at an aeronautical university, working for the NTSB was the cream of the crop -- it was the job to have," she says.
Then she went on to get a master of business administration (MBA) degree before returning to the NTSB as an aviation accident investigator. She has been there for five years.
"Some people are taken aback because I'm a younger woman," she says. She is used to meeting sheriff's deputies who are surprised to be turning over the accident scene to her. But she says these occurrences are usually resolved within a minute.
"In the end he's relieved that I know what I'm doing and that I'm able to do a good job," she says. She advises other young women to prove themselves by maintaining their integrity. At work, she conducts investigations and writes factual reports on her findings.
She has a flexible schedule and chooses to work four 10-hour days per week. She usually works one of the days from home.
But when she's on call, everything changes. She is on call every fourth week. She says her "go bag" is packed and in the car when she's on call. She gets called out about half the time, but it varies.
"We get around 45 to 50 accidents per year that we write reports for and investigate actively," she says.
One of the most difficult parts of the job for any investigator is talking to families who have lost loved ones. Keliher likes to be there for them to offer an explanation.
"I've had wives come and break down on my shoulder. I want to try to explain what happened to try to make it easier."
The on-call schedule can also be tiring. She remembers stopping by the office at midnight to pick up something when she was called out. She saw one of her co-workers still working!
"It's long hours, but I love the challenge. It would be hard if you had a big family," she says. But for Keliher, the job is a perfect match to her skills. When managing people, her MBA is at work. The technological aspects utilize her aeronautical science degree. Working in aviation draws upon her experience as a pilot. Investigating satisfies her curiosity and desire to keep learning. And writing reports allows her to use her strong writing skills.
"There's a high level of fulfillment to know you've helped and perhaps even prevented an accident or saved a life," she says. She wants to continue to work for the NTSB, but she may move throughout her career to major investigations, or she may become a specialist. "Right now I'm quite happy. I love it."

She is as focused as a laser beam and a smart lady...
 
N801BH said:
Other then waiting for the insurance or family to contact me on the plans to get the wreckage out of my yard this is my final chapter as I just now placed two crosses where the man and lady came to rest.....


Godspeed to those fellow aviators.
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Nicely done, Ben. From initial response to all follow-through. Class act.
 
olasek said:
Very true.
I still recall this Bonanza accident from a few decades ago when a door opened up in flight and a female pilot (the only occupant) tried to close it in flight despite numerous earlier warning from Beech and aviation articles that pilots should not attempt to do it in flight. She lost control of the aircraft and in a true kamikaze-like fashion hit a suburban home where a birthday of a child was being celebrated by a couple generations of family members, she killed most of them including the child.
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A CFI I fly with opened the door on me during takeoff. He wanted to prove to me you could fly the plane safely and land it with it unlatched. He said sooner or later in my flying life a door would open. He wanted to make sure I wouldn't freak out when that happened.
 
DavidWhite said:
She's hot.
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Bet she could kick your ass, too, David. Fact is, you'd like it.

---

Back on track: Ben, I doubt I'd have the fortitude to do what you did at the time of the accident, and your follow-through shows the height of good character. When we meet, drinks are on me.
 
Is it easier to accept the fact that most NTSB reports attribute all or part of accidents to "Pilot's failure to...." if she is the one giving the news?
:)
 
THE FINAL CHAPTER.......

Beegles Aircraft out of Greeley Colorado came up today the pick up the wreckage.. The guy used a gas powered saw to cut it up into manageable pieces..... I admit... I actually cried..:sad::sad:..
 

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There is just something wrong with that. The total lack of respect for the wounded is just not right. :mad::mad::mad: A sad day indeed.:sad::sad::sad:
 
Really surprised there was no fire, especially with full tanks.
 
RV10flyer said:
Really surprised there was no fire, especially with full tanks.
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Yeah... All the other RV guys who have seen these pics were more amazed the fuel tanks instantly "unzipped" at the top rivet line...Just the weight of the fuel ruptured them and 49.4 gallons vaporized / atomized in about 1/10 of a second.

Look at the torn rivets closely...


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