Rwy incursion?

ahmad

ahmad

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Midwest Aviator
Class D after the tower is closed.
Aircraft A holds short for landing Aircraft B.
Aircraft B lands.
Aircraft A lines up on the rwy while aircraft B is on the rwy about to clear the rwy and exit.
Aircraft A lined up and waits then takes off after B is off the rwy.

Is it a rwy incursion?
Asking for a friend
 
ahmad said:
Class D after the tower is closed.
Aircraft A holds short for landing Aircraft B.
Aircraft B lands.
Aircraft A lines up on the rwy while aircraft B is on the rwy about to clear the rwy and exit.
Aircraft A lined up and waits then takes off after B is off the rwy.

Is it a rwy incursion?
Asking for a friend
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It's not class D if the tower is closed. The chart supplement should say if it's E or G. Runway incursions don't exist at E or G fields.

Where I trained we had a single runway with no full length taxiway. I can't count the number of times we landed 2 and 3 planes on the runway, rolling out all the way to the end, and then all of us turning back and back taxiing.

Who keeps putting out garbage info that two (or more) planes can't be on the runway at the same time and that it's an incursion? Tell me, so I can have them inspect the alternator belt while the engine is running, please!
 
I try to avoid LUAW at non-towered fields. (I even get antsy when I get it at towered fields, am watching the traffic display and I listen up closely to what's happening)
How could one not think of Fedex vs SWA @aus, while sitting there?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I try to avoid LUAW at non-towered fields. (I even get antsy when I get it at towered fields, am watching the traffic display and I listen up closely to what's happening)
How could one not think of Fedex vs SWA @aus, while sitting there?
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Doesn't bother me, but my line up at wait is usually about the same amount of time as the final heading/gear/power/etc check.
 
Last summer I was at a non-towered airport where I idled for probably ~20mins waiting for a break in pattern traffic; the break never came. So I waited until a plane cleared the threshold and I immediately pulled out onto RWY announcing a LUAW. When he turned off the rwy I was ready to rock and took off. Kind of a non-event and wish I'd done it sooner. To me that's just safer than wasting precious time until he fully clears the runway half a mile down before I bother pulling out, while another bird gets closer to being on/in final, then try to pull out quickly and try to rocket off before the next plane lands.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Last summer I was at a non-towered airport where I idled for probably ~20mins waiting for a break in pattern traffic; the break never came. So I waited until a plane cleared the threshold and I immediately pulled out onto RWY announcing a LUAW. When he turned off the rwy I was ready to rock and took off. Kind of a non-event and wish I'd done it sooner. To me that's just safer than wasting precious time until he fully clears the runway half a mile down before I bother pulling out, while another bird gets closer to being on/in final, then try to pull out quickly and try to rocket off before the next plane lands.
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Recently I was practicing touch-and-gos (with a CFI) at a CTAF airfield. After one of them, when we were climbing out, another pilot chimed in on the radio and told us that he wasn't clear of the hold short line yet after exiting the runway (we did have him in sight the whole time, so it's not like it was a surprise to us that someone was on the runway before us). My CFI wasn't too concerned but I thought maybe the other pilot was suggesting that we should have done a go-around since he was still working on being completely clear?
 
Baked Potato said:
Recently I was practicing touch-and-gos (with a CFI) at a CTAF airfield. After one of them, when we were climbing out, another pilot chimed in on the radio and told us that he wasn't clear of the hold short line yet after exiting the runway (we did have him in sight the whole time, so it's not like it was a surprise to us that someone was on the runway before us). My CFI wasn't too concerned but I thought maybe the other pilot was suggesting that we should have done a go-around since he was still working on being completely clear?
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One of those pilots who believes that 2 planes can't be on the runway at the same time. Again, whoever started this crap needs to inspect my alternator belt.
 
So I brought this up because this happened yesterday. Guy was on a 2 mile final. I had time to depart in front of him but I decided to wait and let him land 1st. After he landed and well beyond where I was I announced that I was taxiing to line up and wait. I lined up and waited. He immediately got on the CTAF saying "That's a RWY incursion. I am still on the RWY". I told him I had him in sight and will wait till he is clear. After he cleared I took off.

It was a great day and flight till that transmission. I did not think I posed any danger to him but looking back and reading the previous posts I'll probably avoid lining up from now on.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I try to avoid LUAW at non-towered fields. (I even get antsy when I get it at towered fields, am watching the traffic display and I listen up closely to what's happening)
How could one not think of Fedex vs SWA @aus, while sitting there?
Click to expand...
Usair vs Skywest @lax is the ultimate example for that
 
Genuinely curious how someone would consider it reckless/careless to pull out onto the runway when an airplane is downstream from you on the runway, presumably moving further away from you every second. You're waiting. Stopped.
Unless that guy decides to do a 180 on the runway and fly back the opposite direction, what are the possible chances for any kind of incident btw you and him?

The only way I see this possibly backfiring is if you did a LUAW (blue plane), then the downstream guy (red plane) took a minute to turn off/take back off, and there was an inbound plane (orange) that now had to go around b/c you were on the runway.

1689270727595.png
 
luvflyin said:
What's your cut off point?
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Well, fully loaded I'm off in 1200' without trying. So for safety purposes, I'd say 3,000' and if he's already leaving the runway, but not off, I don't feel like I need for him to fully cross the hold short line. Landing distance, about the same.
 
luvflyin said:
There kinda is. FAR 91.13
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That FAR seems kind of subjective (which is likely intentional, to allow the FAA a lot of latitude here).

Is it really careless or reckless to take off when someone is clearly, visibly, off of the runway but is only halfway across the hold short, for example?
 
Baked Potato said:
That FAR seems kind of subjective (which is likely intentional, to allow the FAA a lot of latitude here).

Is it really careless or reckless to take off when someone is clearly, visibly, off of the runway but is only halfway across the hold short, for example?
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Yes, it's very subjective. My answer to your question is no.
 
Depends ... if I can see the other plane and there's plenty of room (3K seems about right) then I can depart with them still on the runway. But most times I'll wait them out for safety reasons (and to prevent them from crying on the radio).

I don't care much for LUAW at an uncontrolled field as once you are there you cannot see final approach. At some airports there is only one taxi way to the ramp so there is no choice but to move out of the way to allow the landing plane access to the ramp area.

At one of my home airports we get a number of students that land one way and then turnaround and depart the other. It's non-towered so it's legal and in calm winds it's maybe to be expected but some of them students don't seem to care much about taking off or landing with a pretty good tailwind. In my tailwheel I try to avoid that ...
 
ahmad said:
So I brought this up because this happened yesterday. Guy was on a 2 mile final. I had time to depart in front of him but I decided to wait and let him land 1st. After he landed and well beyond where I was I announced that I was taxiing to line up and wait. I lined up and waited. He immediately got on the CTAF saying "That's a RWY incursion. I am still on the RWY". I told him I had him in sight and will wait till he is clear. After he cleared I took off.

It was a great day and flight till that transmission. I did not think I posed any danger to him but looking back and reading the previous posts I'll probably avoid lining up from now on.
Click to expand...
“I guess you ****ed up then,” might be an appropriate response, too. ;)
 
ahmad said:
So I brought this up because this happened yesterday. Guy was on a 2 mile final. I had time to depart in front of him but I decided to wait and let him land 1st. After he landed and well beyond where I was I announced that I was taxiing to line up and wait. I lined up and waited. He immediately got on the CTAF saying "That's a RWY incursion. I am still on the RWY". I told him I had him in sight and will wait till he is clear. After he cleared I took off.
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Entitled pilot. I probably would have keyed up the mic and made baby crying noises, then started take off roll.
 
You missed a great opportunity to key the mike and transmit "I ASSUME THAT YOU ARE EVENTUALLY GOING TO REPORT CLEAR OF THE RUNWAY SO THAT i MAY TAKE THE RUNWAY AND DEPART" :devil: Proper emphasis of the second word is important.

Missing the opportunity did improve the overall mood of all who were on frequency with the two of you.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Last summer I was at a non-towered airport where I idled for probably ~20mins waiting for a break in pattern traffic; the break never came. So I waited until a plane cleared the threshold and I immediately pulled out onto RWY announcing a LUAW. When he turned off the rwy I was ready to rock and took off. Kind of a non-event and wish I'd done it sooner. To me that's just safer than wasting precious time until he fully clears the runway half a mile down before I bother pulling out, while another bird gets closer to being on/in final, then try to pull out quickly and try to rocket off before the next plane lands.
Click to expand...

In that case, I would time my entry to the runway to roll on, line up, and push the power up as the other aircraft turns off.
 
Pinecone said:
In that case, I would time my entry to the runway to roll on, line up, and push the power up as the other aircraft turns off.
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Yeah, I'm not in a enough of a hurry to floor it before I see the aircraft turn off. It just helps to already be lined up ready to go so that once they begin making that turn off you can punch it and be on your way.
 
ahmad said:
Class D after the tower is closed.
Aircraft A holds short for landing Aircraft B.
Aircraft B lands.
Aircraft A lines up on the rwy while aircraft B is on the rwy about to clear the rwy and exit.
Aircraft A lined up and waits then takes off after B is off the rwy.

Is it a rwy incursion?
Click to expand...

What airport was it?
 
The literal definition of runway incursion is "Any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and take off of aircraft.". Without operating ATC, there is no judge of the correct or incorrect presence, so in the absence of ATC, a runway incursion by definition is not possible. This is not just my opinion, but is also the opinion of the FAA, believe me I've had this discussion with them before. As an airport operator, I am required to notify the FAA and investigate any possible runway incursion, but because my airport is non-towered the FAA has told me that will never be necessary.
 
ahmad said:
KCGI
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Which Runway. Side trip here. That was a Towered Class G Airport a few years ago. That was about the National Weather Service closed down their office there. They took the Aviation Weather Observations there. The Tower Controllers were not Certified Weather Observers. So, until the Tower Controllers became LAWRS Certified, it could not be a Surface Area. Anyway, back to which Runway. How comfortable I’d be with LUAW’ing would depend on that.
 
luvflyin said:
Which Runway. Side trip here. That was a Towered Class G Airport a few years ago. That was about the National Weather Service closed down their office there. They took the Aviation Weather Observations there. The Tower Controllers were not Certified Weather Observers. So, until the Tower Controllers became LAWRS Certified, it could not be a Surface Area. Anyway, back to which Runway. How comfortable I’d be with LUAW’ing would depend on that.
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Rwy 20.
I was holding short on E.
 
EdFred said:
It's not class D if the tower is closed. The chart supplement should say if it's E or G. Runway incursions don't exist at E or G fields.
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It's not a question of airspace but of whether there's an operating tower.
 
I’m not sure I would go as far to say runway incursions can’t happen at uncontrolled fields.
On takeoff roll and somebody crosses midfield… not an FAA hold short violation, but what else would you call it other than a runway incursion??
 
ahmad said:
Rwy 20.
I was holding short on E.
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I might be less likely to LUAW on 20 than say 28. 20 is shorter, and where the places are where the preceding landing traffic could exit the runway at would enter into my decision. Pretty likely that plane would have to go all the way to the end and that might take awhile. 28, I’d Line Up And Wait. Not Line Up And Stop and wait to take off. But Line Up on the runway, continue moving down the runway and wait to firewall the throttle until that guy is off the runway. If he does something stoopid like hang a 180 and taxi back, or just stops on the runway, I have an easy way back off the runway at A2. It’s kinda like a situational awareness thang.
 
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Kritchlow said:
I’m not sure I would go as far to say runway incursions can’t happen at uncontrolled fields.
On takeoff roll and somebody crosses midfield… not an FAA hold short violation, but what else would you call it other than a runway incursion??
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Dumb, stupid, reckless? I get your point. But be prepared to get into a conversation about what the definition of what (quote) runway incursion (unquote) is.
 
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Kritchlow said:
I’m not sure I would go as far to say runway incursions can’t happen at uncontrolled fields.
On takeoff roll and somebody crosses midfield… not an FAA hold short violation, but what else would you call it other than a runway incursion??
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It's a non-reportable event, although potentially could be labelled a close call. I've seen your exact scenario happen, and words were exchanged between the pilots. But short of a collision there are not any separation standards at a non-towered airport. There is nothing that prevents a gaggle of planes departing with seconds of separation. I've seen crop dusters split a runway like a highway, taking off and landing opposite directions on opposite sides of the runway. As I like to say, what is safe isn't always legal, and what is legal isn't always safe.
 
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