Routing Question around Chicago

microfarad

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microfarad
Will be working on getting my IFR rating this summer but have been looking through charts and planning flights that I would like to fly soon. Not yet really working with an instructor yet so I thought that I would ask this question here. One that I am considering is KTYQ (Indianapolis Executive) to 91C. Direct would go through Chicago Class B so that is most certainly a no go. Would like to file the route as AZHUP direct HOMRC T354 MAYSE. Using AZHUP as a convenient waypoint that is almost on a direct line to HOMRC that is shortly after takeoff. Any idea as to whether this would be accepted as filed? If so, what is the likelihood of actually flying the routing? Also, I have never heard of anyone doing this, is it possible to list two routes for the same location listing one as a preferred and a secondary one? Would likely list a direct route for the preferred and one that uses more VORs and airways for the secondary.
 
Once you have foreflight on your iPad you'll be able to see then last several clearances for a route from TYQ to ?DLL(Dells?)
but how about just 10,500 for the segment where you need to be out side the Bravo?

What you posted will work but if IFR the ATO will likely use Vectors to MINOK HINCK for travel with advisories....
 
Coming from Indiana going north, I can guarantee your two options are to go to the KELSI intersection or being left way east over Lake Michigan. I was bopping along at 10,000 going from Indiana up to OSH a few years back and had this exchange:

27K: Is there any altitude I can request that will avoid me having to go to the KELSI intersection?
C90: Let me check... nope.
27K: OK, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to climb up 500', cancel IFR, proceed direct OSH, and you can give me radar advisories.
C90: That will work.

Amusingly, they had to hold MDW and ORD departures at 9000 to avoid them climbing through my flight path (why this was preferable to me bopping along at 6000 or something and letting them go above me). I watched one plane climbing ahead of me and then I saw it descending.

UA: I just got a TCAS RA.
C90: Oh, yes, there's a Navion up there at 10,500.
 
Not knowing where you are originating from, if you are trying to route around thr Class B to the west and south, KELSI intersection is where ATC usually routes everyone going around the Class B. Keeps you well away from their airspace.
 
Not knowing where you are originating from, if you are trying to route around thr Class B to the west and south, KELSI intersection is where ATC usually routes everyone going around the Class B. Keeps you well away from their airspace.
He said TYQ-91C.

KELSI is where they route anybody who naturally would have gone anywhere near the class B.
Unless it really is IMC, I file for GYY and then just go VFR either over or above the class B.
 
He said TYQ-91C.

KELSI is where they route anybody who naturally would have gone anywhere near the class B.
Unless it really is IMC, I file for GYY and then just go VFR either over or above the class B.

Right there in front of me. I read it as he was going to TYQ and didnt see the 91C.

5 out of 4 pilots suffer from dyslexia.
 
Any idea as to whether this would be accepted as filed?
The system will accept about anything. And I'd guess you'd be cleared as filed.

If so, what is the likelihood of actually flying the routing?
They'd definitely let you fly it. You'd never even talk to Chicago approach clear out there, and I guessing center would offer you direct around Pontiac.

Also, I have never heard of anyone doing this, is it possible to list two routes for the same location listing one as a preferred and a secondary one?
No.

What you'll find as you start flying ifr, at least around here, is that your original clearance and what you fly can be quite different. I generally just file direct. If there's a preferred routing, the computer will give it to you. If a controller wants you somewhere else, they'll reroute you. For example, when I fly to the north side of Chicago from champaign, say to Kenosha, I'll file direct. I'll get cleared "as filed". Then somewhere between Roberts and Pontiac, I'll get a reroute. Generally i get START rather than KELSI these days. Usually it'll be direct again after that. Very rare to get assigned a Victor or T route.

You can get tricky too though. I've filed to CGT in the past with the intention of doing the vfr lakeshore route. Approach was happy to get me there, get me down, and turn me loose.

All that to say, if you filed TYQ- direct-c91, I bet $50 you'd get cleared as filed, and somewhere near PEO you'd hear "i have a reroute for you, advise ready to copy" and then "direct START, direct"
 
Thanks everyone for your responses. It is interesting to note that what I proposed is 279 miles, direct Kelsi is 267 miles, direct Start is 261 miles and direct over the Class Bravo is 251 miles. My guess is that the first time I try it as a newly minted IFR pilot will be to stay west and hopefully have a bit calmer experience. Also, it will probably be the case if weather was significantly different one route over the other (unlikely in any case) then the weather will not be what I would want as a newly minted IFR pilot.
 
is that your original clearance and what you fly can be quite different.
This

First, congratulations on starting your IFR training. Just as challenging, time requiring, and rewarding as your PPL was.

Second, there are three types of clearances. 1) What you file, 2) what you get (probably will be different), and 3) what you actually fly (will be different). You'll get unexpected vectors, sometimes an Arrival (STAR), deviations for hot training areas, weather, etc. But all of that keeps you flying safe, away from other planes, gets you to your destination, etc.

Plan thoroughly on the ground, fly with your training in the air when it changes.
 
Thanks everyone for your responses. It is interesting to note that what I proposed is 279 miles, direct Kelsi is 267 miles, direct Start is 261 miles and direct over the Class Bravo is 251 miles.
And that's an excellent observation....what looks like a big detour on the map is really just a couple extra minutes in the plane.
 
Thanks everyone for your responses. It is interesting to note that what I proposed is 279 miles, direct Kelsi is 267 miles, direct Start is 261 miles and direct over the Class Bravo is 251 miles. My guess is that the first time I try it as a newly minted IFR pilot will be to stay west and hopefully have a bit calmer experience. Also, it will probably be the case if weather was significantly different one route over the other (unlikely in any case) then the weather will not be what I would want as a newly minted IFR pilot.

Q: why not do this routing on your IFR XC or during your IFR training. The plus side is you will have your CFII to discuss with and then sitting right next to you during execution.
 
Good idea about doing this during training except that I will probably go somewhere for an accelerated program which is very doubtful while staying local. While I am here does anyone have any knowledge of GATTS IFR program in Manhattan Kansas?
 
how about just 10,500 for the segment where you need to be out side the Bravo?
For those who do this, remember that Chicago is a major international gateway with three airline hubs over two airports. The number of jets descending into, and climbing out of, the top of the Class B is significant. Please ensure that your Transponder and Mode C, or better, is on and working so that our TCAS will be able to see you.
 
I read another interesting thing about going over the Class B with flight following. On one discussion somewhere a pilot reported that as soon as he got flight following he was vectored out of the area. In his case he decided to just drop flight following (apparently ignoring ATC further) and continue. He didn't mention anything bad happening. A recent article from AOPA about flight following through the Volks MOA in Wisconsin said that the author planned to request dropping flight following if given a vector out of the MOA. He did say though that ATC doesn't have to drop you if they don't want to and that if they insist on a vector to go around then that is what you will do. Would presume that the same would apply to flight following over Class B.
 
ATL - you know traffic is going east to west or west to east. Busy as Chicago if not more but you can get around.

Chicago - that place seems “complicated”.
 
ATL - you know traffic is going east to west or west to east. Busy as Chicago if not more but you can get around.

Chicago - that place seems “complicated”.
ATC has one hub and one major airport. Chicago has three hubs and two major airports. ORD only runs with five simultaneous active runways plus whatever MDW is doing.
 
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I'm based at MSN and use 91C for Swift fuel. I've flown a similar route back and forth to/from MQJ couple of times. If you want IFR the whole route you will get MAPPS - KELSI or maybe LUCIT - KELSI if the MOA is active. You can request to cut the corner and you'll get a small shortcut. I've asked about going over top of the bravo and was told, "sure, you need to clim to 16,000". That was a no go.

Others have suggested filing Gary, IN (KGYY) and going VFR up the lake shore. I've used that strategy a number of times. It's best to let Center or whoever you are talking to then that you are planning to cancel in the air and take the lake shore. Chicago approach is now regularly accepting the hand off for VFR flight following along the shoreline. The flyway is easy to follow and you can overlay it in Foreflight. It's a great view and you can cut northwest under the bravo once clear of the city where you can get under the shelf at a reasonable altitude.

If you decide to stay south Chicago, The Stone Jug BBQ in Peru, IL (VYS - Illinois Valley) is a 5 min drive by crew car. It's about 9 miles southwest of KELSI. Other food stops are Pilot Pete's at Schaumburg (06C) or Bessie's at Janesville (JVL). The Jet Room at Madison (KMSN) is good but they've changed to cash only.
 
Will be working on getting my IFR rating this summer but have been looking through charts and planning flights that I would like to fly soon. Not yet really working with an instructor yet so I thought that I would ask this question here. One that I am considering is KTYQ (Indianapolis Executive) to 91C. Direct would go through Chicago Class B so that is most certainly a no go. Would like to file the route as AZHUP direct HOMRC T354 MAYSE. Using AZHUP as a convenient waypoint that is almost on a direct line to HOMRC that is shortly after takeoff. Any idea as to whether this would be accepted as filed? If so, what is the likelihood of actually flying the routing? Also, I have never heard of anyone doing this, is it possible to list two routes for the same location listing one as a preferred and a secondary one? Would likely list a direct route for the preferred and one that uses more VORs and airways for the secondary.
The big thing here is that Chicago Approach does not want to talk to you if they don't have to. Whether IFR or VFR on flight following, you're going around except in rare cases. In 23 years of flying in the area, I have gotten through the Chicago B three times, and at least two if not all three were late on Sunday nights.

KELSI is the old way to get around Chicago, and it used to be that you were either going to get KELSI, SHOOF, or over the lake, period, end of story. However, Chicago not talking to anyone not departing or arriving in their area is the entire reason that the T265 GPS airway exists, so you can use it to stay on the land side and remain with Chicago Center, Rockford Approach, and Milwaukee Approach. Use however much of it you need to stay at or outside of it. In this case, if you do KTYQ MEITZ T265 START 91C, that's almost certainly the route you'll fly.

Yes, you can file direct. No, you will NOT get it... And if you wait until ATC reroutes you, you'll be flying further than you would have if you just filed around in the first place. FWIW, the MEITZ T265 START route adds just 11 miles of total distance to your trip.

Now, if you don't mind staying VFR and conditions allow it, you can also go VFR up the lakeshore past the city of Chicago, which is something I do recommend doing while we still can! It has gotten a bit more complicated in recent years, but it's not too bad. The big complication is that if MDW is landing on the 22s, don't go at a busy time of day because you'll be smack in the wake turbulence danger zone and risk getting your wings ripped off like this guy did: http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2013/07/piper-pa-28r-200-arrow-ii-n1549x.html

If you listen to the ATIS and MDW is not landing on the 22s, and there isn't a Bears/Sox/Cubs game going on, it's as simple as staying out of airspace, though I recommend calling for flight following on 128.2 if you're coming from the south or 120.55 if you're coming from the north. I've never been denied flight following along the lakeshore. You can sneak above KGYY's D and then descend down to 2000 and follow the shore, then climb back up remaining under the B on the north side and maybe top KUGN's D as well (only 400 feet between the two though). The route to punch in is KGYY VPFTS, just don't put that in and follow it on autopilot - You need to stay over the water, so at least rubber-band your route to the Bahai Temple north of downtown (it's on the sectional).

In any case - Fly safe and have fun!
 
I've been going direct GYY under the class B on the lakeshore and then turning in for years as long as the weather was good. Only once or twice did I go VFR down the west side. As I stated, I did go over the top VFR once (with flight following).
 
I may try the lakeshore route someday (if still available). I have not flown in traffic that heavy and once I get my IR I will want a decent long cross country and seeing my niece and her family will provide the excuse. Think I will likely try MEITZ T265 START when that day comes.
 
I've been going direct GYY under the class B on the lakeshore and then turning in for years as long as the weather was good. Only once or twice did I go VFR down the west side. As I stated, I did go over the top VFR once (with flight following).
Only problem with going over the top is, that's where all of the fast-moving traffic is... And that's also where they're speeding up. They'll be doing 250+ KIAS, which ends up being something like 325 KTAS already at that altitude, so even the big stuff can be hard to spot. I used to think about doing that, but after flying even a mere TBM I wouldn't do it any more.

KGYY is a great place to file to/from when IFR. Southbound I frequently file from KGYY, and when I contact approach on 128.2 passing downtown they've always given me my clearance. The only issue is that it often takes a while to get up to cruising altitude as there's generally a fair number of Southwest jets coming from the southeast to Midway so I end up at 4000 for a while, then 6000 for a while, and usually past South Bend before I get any higher.

I may try the lakeshore route someday (if still available). I have not flown in traffic that heavy
The heavy traffic is really over the top of you. There'll usually be one or two other aircraft going down the lakeshore, but most of the traffic is gonna be flying over the top of you on the way in/out of ORD.

That is to say, the heavy traffic is the heavy traffic. ;)

and once I get my IR I will want a decent long cross country and seeing my niece and her family will provide the excuse. Think I will likely try MEITZ T265 START when that day comes.
Definitely a worthwhile endeavor.
 
Don't assume you can't get through the Chicago Class B, but depending how they're landing, the time you get there, etc., etc., it just may not be worth it.

But if I put in KTYQ 91C **OR** KTYQ HINCK 91C, ForeFlight shows no difference in the time. On a flight that long, if the slight angle out and back is in the middle of the flight, it seldome makes much if any difference in the time.
 
Only problem with going over the top is, that's where all of the fast-moving traffic is... And that's also where they're speeding up. They'll be doing 250+ KIAS, which ends up being something like 325 KTAS already at that altitude, so even the big stuff can be hard to spot. I used to think about doing that, but after flying even a mere TBM I wouldn't do it any more.
Well, I was getting VFR radar services when I did it and C90 was holding most of the MDW and ORD departures at 9,000 as a result. Except for the one that they forgot and it got a TCAS RA as it was climging toward my flight path.

As I said, serves C90 right for not providing any better route IFR through their airspace.
 
From 1C5 to UGN, I "negotiate" with them. 36 DME arc clockwise and climb through 8K on FF. When they see you approaching BENKE they ask intentions and then when you tell them "intentions", they let you go direct. Easier to deal with the flivver then to get four in the conga....RA's
 
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Will be working on getting my IFR rating this summer but have been looking through charts and planning flights that I would like to fly soon. Not yet really working with an instructor yet so I thought that I would ask this question here. One that I am considering is KTYQ (Indianapolis Executive) to 91C. Direct would go through Chicago Class B so that is most certainly a no go. Would like to file the route as AZHUP direct HOMRC T354 MAYSE. Using AZHUP as a convenient waypoint that is almost on a direct line to HOMRC that is shortly after takeoff. Any idea as to whether this would be accepted as filed? If so, what is the likelihood of actually flying the routing? Also, I have never heard of anyone doing this, is it possible to list two routes for the same location listing one as a preferred and a secondary one? Would likely list a direct route for the preferred and one that uses more VORs and airways for the secondary.
Are you based at 91C?
 
I have taken the lakeshore route going to OSH,on the way back I took the inside route vfr controller asked me where I was going and said go direct stay away from Midway. I was headed to the east coast.
 
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