Road Bump in Buying a Plane - No Place to Put It

Clip4 said:
I don’t know where you live, but my experience is an active EAA chapter’s members eat about 15% -20% of the hangar space at a lot of airports and those kits aren’t completed for years. In my view hangars should not be used for kit assembly or storage of aircraft that don’t have a current annual inspection and the FAA should take a stand on this at grant airports.

If it can’t fly, it needs to go.
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Because your aviation activity is more important than their aviation activity?

Bottom line, airports don’t want to build hangars for us.
 
FormerHangie said:
As real estate became more expensive, these airports closed
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I’ve seen the same thing happen to a few small town airports that got sold and plowed under to grow corn as the ethanol plants started getting built. Now it’s the golf courses about to fall under the same fate (I don’t like golf, only played it twice in my life and that’s because I was forced to through work) but it’s been the big talk of the town a few miles from home. City owned and while solvent, not many citizens of the town have the time to use it, they can’t afford the fees and cart etc, and it has developed over decades a kinda of exclusionary attitude and they do not feel welcome to go there. Now the people of the town see it as a multi million dollar winning lottery ticket to cash out to pay for the water treatment plant upgrade they just had their property taxes and water rates hiked to pay for and are packing city hall every council meeting demanding it be sold to pay for it instead of levying them.
 
UngaWunga said:
The waitlist for hangars locally is long, but if you actually walk in and talk to them and HAVE AN AIRPLANE, you can get moved pretty far up the list.
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It also helps to be a customer there. Take a tie down if that is what they have. Have them do some maintenance, if they can. Get some dual. Hang out.

People they know get called first.
 
Paperwork is involved and strings are attached with other forms of public assistance that receive federal dollars.

There are wait lists because the demand for hangars exceeds the supply, e.g. the cost is too low.

There are ways to raise the cost without raising the rent; maybe some FAA red tape would help align demand with supply?
 
Why not raise the rent to a reasonable level?

I hear of $75 per month hangar rent, then comments about the airport not making money and closing. DUH.
 
Pinecone said:
Why not raise the rent to a reasonable level?

I hear of $75 per month hangar rent, then comments about the airport not making money and closing. DUH.
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We generally don’t assign profit/loss to infrastructure. If we did, we’d probably shut downs the interstates because they don’t show a profit. Airports are similar - they are part of the country’s overall logistics network.
 
But they are a lot less useful without a functioning FBO.

And one reason so many hangars are non-aircraft storage is that the price per square foot is WAY less than storage units.

And, supply and demand, if you have a huge waiting list, raise the price and make some money. My field is $650 per month for new hangar leases. They just put in an another row of 18 units as the other 3 were full and they had more than 7 on a waiting list.
 
mandm said:
Chicago has free outdoor tie-down parking (DM me if you want to know where), just have to look around. Also some FBO’s allow free parking on the ramp, even allow me to keep my car there (for years now). Go places, put on a big bright smile, you’d be surprised what you can get for free.
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And I just found out we also have free Level 2 EV chargers too right by the free tiedowns. So you could drive to the airport, park and charge, fly your airplane and then go home. All for free. No one uses it though.
 
WDD said:
Really, I'm retired now, I've got the war chest absurdly funded to pay cash for everything..... And now I have to figure out where to put the dang thing without having to rent a plane to go where it's parked so I can fly it??
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Find an old pilot, partner with him as he won't fly but a few hours a year at most, get both names on plane and lease ... problem solved as the older pilot will stop flying shortly ... you can change planes at that point if you didn't like your partnered plane ...
 
danhagan said:
Find an old pilot, partner with him as he won't fly but a few hours a year at most, get both names on plane and lease ... problem solved as the older pilot will stop flying shortly ... you can change planes at that point if you didn't like your partnered plane ...
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Getting financially entangled with a grumpy old pilot.... eh... maybe not.
 
WDD said:
If buying a plane isn't hard enough.....

KRYY - 15 min up the road - Tie Downs, 1 - 2 year waiting list Shared Hangar, don't even ask... (oh yeah, want to know how much??)
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I just sold a hangar at RYY. Depending on your aircraft, there may be an opportunity to sublease a part of the hangar. Give me a call. Happy to make the introduction to the new owner.

#AviationRealEstate
www.flockrealtygroup.com
 
GeorgeC said:
Paperwork is involved and strings are attached with other forms of public assistance that receive federal dollars.

There are wait lists because the demand for hangars exceeds the supply, e.g. the cost is too low.

There are ways to raise the cost without raising the rent; maybe some FAA red tape would help align demand with supply?
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You are correct of course. Most public use airports are government owned. Everyone wants the government to run like a business...until it affects their rent. If the airport was private, they could and should operate like a business. But as a public entity, politics come into play. Airport management is a political position, usually hired or appointed by local elected officials. Aircraft owners are typically active in their community politics, and don't like their rent going up. We raise our rent even a few bucks a month and the pitchforks and torches come out. I can't tell you how many times I've been accused of being anti-GA because of rent increases, even though I'm an aircraft owner, active pilot and CFI myself and my rent is also affected!

It is no different than the backlash City Hall receives when taxes go up. Everyone wants the services, no one wants to pay for it personally.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Ain't no jets landing on our 3600' grass strip.:)
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My buddy who fly's 737s says he could land on a nearby 4100' turf airport. But
He never said he could take off from the same strip though! lol
I land at it often even with a tail wind since I have so much strip to work with. I usually fly around that clump of trees since it has couple houses in them and I have plenty of room to maneuver.
IMG_1850.JPG
 
rwellner98 said:
I assume this is his cousin?

www.aerotime.aero

Ural Airlines A320 stuck in field to be dismantled: reports

Russian media outlets are reporting that the Ural Airlines Airbus A320 that landed in a Russian wheat field in September 2023, will be dismantled.
www.aerotime.aero www.aerotime.aero
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This one did on 3,700 of pavement. The part that blows my mind is that they succeeded without knowing what they were about to do.

www.cbsnews.com

Southwest plane that landed at wrong airport gets back in the air

Jet takes off from small Missouri airport with short runway, where it landed Sunday instead of arriving at larger Branson facility
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com
 
I used to go in there in a Kingair. I can’t imagine being able to stop a 737 that short by accident. Very lucky.
 
hindsight2020 said:
yet United couldn't do it in 10K, oOf. :fingerwag:
View attachment 127738
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Can't blame Boeing or United for that one, just straight up pilot error. He waited until he had less than 3,700 feet of wet pavement before trying to slow down.

I've also seen Cessna Caravans barely stop on 5,500 feet of runway because they touched down over halfway down the runway. Must have thought he was a jet crossing the numbers at 120 kts.
 
Clip4 said:
I don’t know where you live, but my experience is an active EAA chapter’s members eat about 15% -20% of the hangar space at a lot of airports and those kits aren’t completed for years. In my view hangars should not be used for kit assembly or storage of aircraft that don’t have a current annual inspection and the FAA should take a stand on this at grant airports.

If it can’t fly, it needs to go.

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Since you want to be pedantic...

E/AB aircraft don't get an "annual inspection". They get an "annual condition inspection". But even if we let that go, using your view, there would be almost no E/AB aircraft since they all require some level of assembly at the airport before they can fly.

I was unable to finish and fly my plane from my house (no room for the plane with the wings attached and no runway) so the last nine months had to be done in a hangar at the airport. I'm glad you weren't in charge during those nine months.
 
donjohnston said:
Since you want to be pedantic...

E/AB aircraft don't get an "annual inspection". They get an "annual condition inspection". But even if we let that go, using your view, there would be almost no E/AB aircraft since they all require some level of assembly at the airport before they can fly.

I was unable to finish and fly my plane from my house (no room for the plane with the wings attached and no runway) so the last nine months had to be done in a hangar at the airport. I'm glad you weren't in charge during those nine months.
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I wasn’t addressing experimental aircraft/annuals. I am addressing hangar queen aircraft in a decade of storage that don’t and may not ever fly again. These are the I lost my medical at age 80 and plan in getting it back now that I am 88 and the engine is making metal and don’t have to money to overhaul going on 7 years.
 
Welcome to GA. Finding a hangar is usually more challenging than finding a plane.

I was on one hangar list for 12 years. Fortunately, I had gotten a few hangars before then. It takes lots of time and patience most any where to come up with any hangar at all, much less for one at a reasonable price,adequate and near home. It took me about nine years to end up with both planes in a 65’ x 65’ hangar with a bathroom at a fabulous GA airport, 2 miles from home for $700 per month. I consider myself massively blessed to now be in this situation.

It takes lots of patience and time.
 
WDD said:
Getting financially entangled with a grumpy old pilot.... eh... maybe not.
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Clip4 said:
I wasn’t addressing experimental aircraft/annuals. I am addressing hangar queen aircraft in a decade of storage that don’t and may not ever fly again. These are the I lost my medical at age 80 and plan in getting it back now that I am 88 and the engine is making metal and don’t have to money to overhaul going on 7 years.
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I must point out that this type of scenario is not limited to homebuilt airplanes.
 
Clip4 said:
This is a part 23 aircraft issue.
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Your post quoted in this subthread was mostly about EAA members taking 15-20% of hangar space and not completing their kits for years. Then you said you were not addressing experimental aircraft. What percentage of hangar space do you think is occupied by unairworthy certified aircraft?
 
iamtheari said:
Your post quoted in this subthread was mostly about EAA members taking 15-20% of hangar space and not completing their kits for years. Then you said you were not addressing experimental aircraft. What percentage of hangar space do you think is occupied by unairworthy certified aircraft?
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10%. I have recently been shopping 182s for a client. There are a lot that haven’t flown in 10 years.
 
Clip4 said:
I wasn’t addressing experimental aircraft/annuals. I am addressing hangar queen aircraft in a decade of storage that don’t and may not ever fly again. These are the I lost my medical at age 80 and plan in getting it back now that I am 88 and the engine is making metal and don’t have to money to overhaul going on 7 years.
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Actually you were.

my experience is an active EAA chapter’s members eat about 15% -20% of the hangar space at a lot of airports and those kits aren’t completed for years.
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You mention "EAA chapter's" and "kits". While there are EAA members who are not building an E/AB aircraft, you specifically mention kits.
In my view hangars should not be used for kit assembly
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If this doesn't address experimental aircraft, then what non-Experimental aircraft are a kit that is assembled???
 
iamtheari said:
Your post quoted in this subthread was mostly about EAA members taking 15-20% of hangar space and not completing their kits for years. Then you said you were not addressing experimental aircraft. What percentage of hangar space do you think is occupied by unairworthy certified aircraft?
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donjohnston said:
Actually you were.



You mention "EAA chapter's" and "kits". While there are EAA members who are not building an E/AB aircraft, you specifically mention kits.


If this doesn't address experimental aircraft, then what non-Experimental aircraft are a kit that is assembled???
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I suppose you never heard of Vans.
 
donjohnston said:
Yes, I have. What's your point?
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That what I am referring to a a kit plane. The parts are manufactured for assembly. Not that it matters. Builders should not be permitted to rent hangars to house unassembled aircraft.
 
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Why not?

So it takes years to build one. It is still an airplane.

I take exception to those who have hangars and do not own any form of aircraft.
 
Pinecone said:
Why not?

So it takes years to build one. It is still an airplane.

I take exception to those who have hangars and do not own any form of aircraft.
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I agree, this is a pretty clear-cut issue and people are muddying the waters with talk about supply/demand economics and driving wedges between aviation communities.

Planes need storage and can only be stored in hangars with access to usable runways and the businesses that support the existence of an airfield need planes operating there to make money. It makes perfect sense why someone would want to build in the same place they intend to operate from.

Nothing else needs to be stored in a hangar. It shouldn't matter if the $/sqft of the hangar is cheaper than the nearby Rent-A-Shed and the prices set by those industries should have no bearing on the prices aviators pay for hangars. After all, it's not like the airport is valuing the land to build a new hangar just off the taxiway based on what that same size plot would cost on the other side of the airport's fence.
 
Clip4 said:
That what I am referring to a a kit plane. The parts are manufactured for assembly. Not that it matters. Builders should not be permitted to rent hangars to house unassembled aircraft.
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So you state that kits being assembled shouldn't be allowed in hangars.

Then you say you weren't talking about kit aircraft. That you were talking about "hangar queens".

Then you say hangars should not be used for assembling aircraft.

You seem... confused.

And it's obvious you also don't want any E/AB aircraft to exist. Because if you can't perform the final assembly in a hangar, there aren't many ways to build an experimental aircraft.
 
Pinecone said:
Why not?

So it takes years to build one. It is still an airplane.

I take exception to those who have hangars and do not own any form of aircraft.
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During the assembly phase, it is the same as having a hangar without owning an airplane. The hangars are there for operation of aircraft, not storage or assembly of anything. After you get it together and if it flies, that is when it needs to be in a hangar with access to fuel and a runway.
 
donjohnston said:
So you state that kits being assembled shouldn't be allowed in hangars.

Then you say you weren't talking about kit aircraft. That you were talking about "hangar queens".

Then you say hangars should not be used for assembling aircraft.

You seem... confused.

And it's obvious you also don't want any E/AB aircraft to exist. Because if you can't perform the final assembly in a hangar, there aren't many ways to build an experimental aircraft.
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I do believe that FINAL assembly would be legitimate in an airport hangar. That would be a short amount of time and most people wouldn’t have space to put the wings on in their garage or personal shop. Even if they did, how will they transfer it to the airport?
 
MBDiagMan said:
I do believe that FINAL assembly would be legitimate in an airport hangar. That would be a short amount of time and most people wouldn’t have space to put the wings on in their garage or personal shop. Even if they did, how will they transfer it to the airport?
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Not according to that guy.
 
Pinecone said:
Why not?

So it takes years to build one. It is still an airplane.

I take exception to those who have hangars and do not own any form of aircraft.
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What if they have a 1968 Ford Falcon stored in the hangar?. Some of the parts are the same ones on your Cessna.
 
Clip4 said:
10%. I have recently been shopping 182s for a client. There are a lot that haven’t flown in 10 years.
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My good friend is a manager at a big FBO. Waiting list for a T hangar is long. But so many planes are unused, barely used, or just rotting away. But the owners pay their rent, and keep up on their Insurance so they sit where they are. He would rather get people in there that will pay their bills and actually purchase fuel. By he can’t force anyone out as long as they keep the bills paid. And of course some have had inquiries on selling , but they have no interest in doing that. He said some of those planes are essentially write offs for businesses.
 
kyleb said:
We generally don’t assign profit/loss to infrastructure. If we did, we’d probably shut downs the interstates because they don’t show a profit. Airports are similar - they are part of the country’s overall logistics network.
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It’s highly dependent on the airport. Some, like mine, are setup as an enterprise fund under the City’s umbrella, so it’s ran just like a business and shows profit/loss at the end of the year. Others are grouped under the general fund which is usually tax based and so they don’t show profits and losses. It varies widely from airport to airport.
midwestpa24 said:
You are correct of course. Most public use airports are government owned. Everyone wants the government to run like a business...until it affects their rent. If the airport was private, they could and should operate like a business. But as a public entity, politics come into play. Airport management is a political position, usually hired or appointed by local elected officials. Aircraft owners are typically active in their community politics, and don't like their rent going up. We raise our rent even a few bucks a month and the pitchforks and torches come out. I can't tell you how many times I've been accused of being anti-GA because of rent increases, even though I'm an aircraft owner, active pilot and CFI myself and my rent is also affected!

It is no different than the backlash City Hall receives when taxes go up. Everyone wants the services, no one wants to pay for it personally.
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I couldn’t have said it better myself.
 
MBDiagMan said:
During the assembly phase, it is the same as having a hangar without owning an airplane. The hangars are there for operation of aircraft, not storage or assembly of anything. After you get it together and if it flies, that is when it needs to be in a hangar with access to fuel and a runway.
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So, how often does a plane need to be flown to meet your criteria?

Will you check Flight Aware and remove planes from hangars if they do not fly enough hours??????
 
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