Road Bump in Buying a Plane - No Place to Put It

Clip4 said:
What if they have a 1968 Ford Falcon stored in the hangar?. Some of the parts are the same ones on your Cessna.
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If it is in there with an airplane, no problem at all.

Hangars are for airplanes. And the FAA agrees. If the airports takes Federal money, the hangars much have airplanes in them.

But again, raise the hangar rent to the point that it costs the same or more than the local rent a room storage places, and the non-airplanes will leave.
 
MBDiagMan said:
During the assembly phase, it is the same as having a hangar without owning an airplane. The hangars are there for operation of aircraft, not storage or assembly of anything. After you get it together and if it flies, that is when it needs to be in a hangar with access to fuel and a runway.
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I do agree with you to a point. Ideally, hangars are always occupied with airworthy, actively flying aircraft that purchase fuel. That said, one must be reasonable. My lease gives me the discretion to make the decision. If they’re building an aircraft, which IS using the hangar for aeronautical purposes, I will probably ask for routine progress reports. If they aren’t making progress or not actually working on it, I have the right to terminate that person’s lease. That said, I’ve had to terminate the lease of several individuals who were not using their hangar appropriately. It doesn’t benefit anyone other than the lessee to be using a hangar for mini storage.
 
Pinecone said:
If it is in there with an airplane, no problem at all.

Hangars are for airplanes. And the FAA agrees. If the airports takes Federal money, the hangars much have airplanes in them.

But again, raise the hangar rent to the point that it costs the same or more than the local rent a room storage places, and the non-airplanes will leave.
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I believe that having non aviation items in the hangar is fine as long as there are airworthy aircraft that are flown and purchasing fuel in there too.
 
TommyG said:
My good friend is a manager at a big FBO. Waiting list for a T hangar is long. But so many planes are unused, barely used, or just rotting away. But the owners pay their rent, and keep up on their Insurance so they sit where they are. He would rather get people in there that will pay their bills and actually purchase fuel. By he can’t force anyone out as long as they keep the bills paid. And of course some have had inquiries on selling , but they have no interest in doing that. He said some of those planes are essentially write offs for businesses.
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Our airport manager won’t put up with it. He knows very well what is in those hangars and what is flown. At about six months of non activity he starts notifying them. At a year, they’re gone. I’ve seen him do it more than once.

I love my airport.
 
Pinecone said:
So, how often does a plane need to be flown to meet your criteria?

Will you check Flight Aware and remove planes from hangars if they do not fly enough hours??????
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If it’s not flown in six months, it’s not an active aircraft. Make room for those who fly. Let storage take place somewhere other than our airports where those who actively fly need hangar space.

Six months is the number at our airport, but maybe that number is different, but there DEFINITELY needs to be a limit.
 
TommyG said:
He said some of those planes are essentially write offs for businesses.
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This right here is what is killing so much of GA. Everything from tax laws to aircraft prices are dictated by how much $ businesses can purposely overspend on aviation to save more on their tax bill.
 
But it was things like the Investment Tax Credit that fueled the boom in GA in the late 70s.
 
To WDD...I emailed the FBO manager at VPC asking about tie down space. Like what you said, the answer was "don't have any available". I'm gonna follow up with the head of the airport authority when I see him next. The eye test says there are a half dozen tiedown spots that are going unused, or are being used for auto parking that could be moved elsewhere. We'll see.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Ummm, no, not how that works.
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Oh well, since you're so sure of how everything works, I guess we can all just take your word for it. Obviously, the guy putzing around in his 50-year-old Super Decathlon is the foremost expert on how the rich buy their corporate jets. I mean, there's only dozens of articles from specialized law firms that deal with aviation tax law and how to use it to reduce your tax bill, but I guess all those lawyers are just wasting there time and energy since, according to you, that's not how this works.

Thanks for your stellar contribution of "I don't believe you" with no further justification, you really added a lot to this conversation.
 
I'm biased....but airplane lift. Split hangar rent if you can find someone with a hangar.

IMG_20230517_201445902_HDR.jpg
 
Country Flier said:
So fortunately for me, I'm in an area with plenty of hangar space...yet...people with planes are turned away from the airports in my area regularly....Why? Well, many of the hangars are filled with boats, classic cars, etc., instead of planes. ALL the airports in my area that I'm aware of have a clause in their leases that states airplanes get first dibs, BUT...do you think the area airport managers like to tell the new guy that? NOPE! They'd rather let that "dependable, proven leasor" stay than take a risk on someone new with a plane. Recently, a friend tried to rent a hangar at the class C I'm at, and they told him there was a long waiting list. I already knew of NUMEROUS hangars with boats, cars, travel trailers, and even an automotive paint shop that according to the lease, can be booted in 90 days if the hangars are full and a new airplane leasor comes along. I told him, he called the manager back, and suddenly a hangar became available.
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Go to the next City counsel meeting and ask to get on the agenda. If they take any FAA funds your airport manager better start writing letters to the leasee's/owners about it. Get your ducks in a row, then start rattling the cages.
 
iamtheari said:
USAF has entered the chat…

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THat's nothing. I lived in West Germany and every year they held REFORGER exercises.... F-4s, AV-8s, Tornado's, F-15s, F-16s all taking off from roads 'for training'. Great time to be a kid.

 
Pinecone said:
So, how often does a plane need to be flown to meet your criteria?

Will you check Flight Aware and remove planes from hangars if they do not fly enough hours??????
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Whatever the lease defines as 'active' is the only right answer.

Seems to me that the managers are more of a problem than the owners.
 
kyleb said:
To WDD...I emailed the FBO manager at VPC asking about tie down space. Like what you said, the answer was "don't have any available". I'm gonna follow up with the head of the airport authority when I see him next. The eye test says there are a half dozen tiedown spots that are going unused, or are being used for auto parking that could be moved elsewhere. We'll see.
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It might be more helpful to go there in person and ask. An email is very easy to dismiss, but showing up in person shows more commitment. Especially if you have a plane that needs a spot asap.
 
pfarber said:
THat's nothing. I lived in West Germany and every year they held REFORGER exercises.... F-4s, AV-8s, Tornado's, F-15s, F-16s all taking off from roads 'for training'. Great time to be a kid.

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I was living in NOLA when TACA 110 landed engines out beside a levee at NASA’s Michoud shuttle liquid fuel tank assembly facility. Was flown out to MSY after one engine replaced/other repaired a day or two later. What I found most impressive was the captain’s back story.

Landing field circled, departure road identified by the arrow:
IMG_0363.jpeg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TACA_Flight_110
 
RyanB said:
There is some truth to that. Plenty of business owners use their aircraft as a tax write off, but the idea that it’s killing GA? Nah, not hardly.
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Agreed. My point was in response to the assertion that people are intentionally overpaying just to save on taxes. Aircraft purchases are deductions, not credits. Your maximum tax savings are 37 cents on the dollar. Who would pay a higher price just to get 37% of the overpayment back?

If I've got this wrong and someone knows how to change that equation, let me know. I could use the advice.
 
UngaWunga said:
It might be more helpful to go there in person and ask. An email is very easy to dismiss, but showing up in person shows more commitment. Especially if you have a plane that needs a spot asap.
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I have two t-hangars at VPC and a good relationship with the FBO manager. I promise, I got the "real" answer from him with my e-mail. The question I haven't asked is why there are at least a half dozed "used to be" tie-down spots that are unoccupied on the ramp, yet none are available. I suspect they are working to clear the ramp of piston engine vermin so they have more room for transient jets, but that's only a guess. I'll get an answer the next time I see the FBO manager (who works Monday-Thursday during the day - not when I'm typically at the airport) or the next time I see the head of the airport authority, who hangars his Cirrus a few spots down from where I keep the RV-10... For what it is worth, I don't need a tiedown spot - I was asking to see if there might be something available for WDD...
 
pfarber said:
Go to the next City counsel meeting and ask to get on the agenda. If they take any FAA funds your airport manager better start writing letters to the leasee's/owners about it. Get your ducks in a row, then start rattling the cages.
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They don’t, I checked.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Who would pay a higher price just to get 37% of the overpayment back?
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Nobody.

But might there be more business buyers when they know there’s a built-in 37% discount? Maybe. Might that allow sellers to keep prices up? Maybe.

It’s not uncommon for tax considerations to distort a market, but is it “killing GA?” Hardly.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Agreed. My point was in response to the assertion that people are intentionally overpaying just to save on taxes. Aircraft purchases are deductions, not credits. Your maximum tax savings are 37 cents on the dollar. Who would pay a higher price just to get 37% of the overpayment back?

If I've got this wrong and someone knows how to change that equation, let me know. I could use the advice.
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Here's a Pro Publica article that gives a deep dive into this topic and shines a light on how prevalent it actually is. There are also many law firms that specialize in aviation tax law, which should give an idea of how much money there is to make off this. Those sites do a good job explaining what the actual benefits are, some highlights include:

- Owners can deduct up to 80% of the purchase price of a new plane (this was 100% until 2022). There is no limit, so the higher the purchase price, the more you can deduct.
- Any usage for business can be deducted (fuel, mx, hangar, etc.), and the airplane is eligible for deductions as long as 51% of it's annual use is for business. The personal time isn't supposed to be deductible, but as long as just one person involved in a trip is doing it for business (ie. CEO dad gets lunch with a prospective client on day 2 of their 7 day vacation) you can count the trip as business as long as you don't expense the non-business PAX, but all other costs can be deducted and it doesn't count against the 51% rule.
- If you take out a loan, you can also deduct the interest you pay. So inflated interest rates again are a positive if you have a high tax bill.
- If they lease out the plane for charters, they can also deduct expenses related to that.

So you can see there are a lot of tax breaks and I'm not sure where this 37 cents on the dollar came from, but I have yet to see that on any of the tax sites I've been looking into. The savings we are talking about can reduce a multi-million $ tax liability to zero and it puts a direct financial incentive on artificially raising prices. If you don't think this had an impact, just look at the average sales price of aircraft before and after these laws came into effect a couple years ago.
 
I will not live long enough to have access to a hangar within several hours of where I live. Now that I can no longer afford anything that will fit on a trailer and park in my driveway, it just doesn't matter... :mad:
 
I was around for the disgusting Meigs Field pillaging. I parked outside for along time at midway and also ended up at Naperville Aero for a while.

Things won’t change and airports will continue to shrink.

I’m lucky enough to own a paint / upholstery / avionics shop. I see all sorts of planes come in- if you prep an airplane properly, whatever religious war you get into about prep, an airplane can do just fine outdoors for quite some time.

I’ve seen zinc chromated airplanes from the factory with the paint hanging in for dear life and not an ounce of corrosion. There are some exceptional primers out there that help with adhesion a ton, and some of the more recent and expensive paints really hold up.

Proper prep with a nice overall well applied coat of imron and proper care lasts you fine outside within reason. Hangars are a nice treat to have, but you can do just fine outside for a few years until you get one
 
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