Reverse sensing with a GPS

coloradobluesky

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coloradobluesky
I have experienced reverse sensing in a GPS (two IFR GPS's, one King KLN90B and the other Garmin 430). Now I'm no expert, but just thought I'd start a thread about reverse sensing with a GPS. Some units may be immune (or partially immune). Some may reverse sense. Not really sure. All units seem to self correct with an additional "Goto". Seems to me my Garmin 295 handheld reversed sensed also. And...someone showed me his model, and it didn't seem to do it much (corrected itself once you moved a just a little). Anyone know the latest? Are they designing reverse sensing out of the most modern GPS's or are they leaving it in?
 
If you are using your GPS in OBS mode, it will mimic a VOR no?
 
There is no such thing as "reverse sensing" in GPS's or VOR's (and it's a misnomer due to lack of understanding of how the system works with LOC's). If you think you are experiencing "reverse sensing" with a GPS, my first thought is that you are either operating it improperly or misinterpreting its displays. My second thought, if I saw the needle really was swinging the wrong way, would be that it is improperly installed.
 
There is no such thing as "reverse sensing" in GPS's or VOR's (and it's a misnomer due to lack of understanding of how the system works with LOC's). If you think you are experiencing "reverse sensing" with a GPS, my first thought is that you are either operating it improperly or misinterpreting its displays. My second thought, if I saw the needle really was swinging the wrong way, would be that it is improperly installed.

I have a feeling he is using it improperly. I've used a King GPS as well as a 430 and now im doing instrument/commercial training in a g1000. If they got rid of reverse sensing in an HSI, theres no way they'd leave it in a GPS which is much, much more advanced than a GPS.
 
Easiest way to explain it is this:
Park your plane on the ramp. The airport waypoint being either to the right or left of you by a considerable margin, point is, you cant be right on the waypoint. On the ramp as far as you can conviently get is usually fine. If its a one runway airport, the airport waypoint is usually in the center of the runway.

Turn on the GPS, and put it in regular, not OBS or approach mode, dial in the airport waypoint and push enter etc. Observe the left/right needle. Lets say its pointing left, towards the runway.

NOW, turn the aircraft 180 degrees end for end. Observe the left right needle. Unless your GPS is different than the King KLN90B or the Garmin 430 (and it was quite a while ago version). You will observe the left/right needle pointing LEFT away from the runway. Which is reverse sensing..

Try it in OBS mode also.

Hope the above is all correct. Might be a mistake or two in there somewhere. But I know I've seen this, and seen it in flight too. I've also seen at least one handheld VFR GPS that didn't do it. Like I say, I'm no expert.

Of course you can rid the unit of it's reverse sensing by hitting the GOTO sequence again.
 
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If they got rid of reverse sensing in an HSI, theres no way they'd leave it in a GPS which is much, much more advanced than a GPS.
It is inaccurate to say "they got rid of reverse sensing in an HSI" -- there is no such thing as reverse sensing, and there never way, even with a LOC signal on a standard CDI. The problem is poor training on how to use a CDI when flying a localizer course in the opposite direction, resulting in people thinking the needle is sensing backwards when it really isn't.
 
Are you sure it was in GPS mode and not LOC mode?
 
Easiest way to explain it is this:
Park your plane on the ramp. The airport waypoint being either to the right or left of you by a considerable margin, point is, you cant be right on the waypoint. On the ramp as far as you can conviently get is usually fine. If its a one runway airport, the airport waypoint is usually in the center of the runway.

Turn on the GPS, and put it in regular, not OBS or approach mode, dial in the airport waypoint and push enter etc. Observe the left/right needle. Lets say its pointing left, towards the runway.

NOW, turn the aircraft 180 degrees end for end. Observe the left right needle. Unless your GPS is different than the King KLN90B or the Garmin 430 (and it was quite a while ago version). You will observe the left/right needle pointing LEFT away from the runway. Which is reverse sensing..

Try it in OBS mode also.

Hope the above is all correct. Might be a mistake or two in there somewhere. But I know I've seen this, and seen it in flight too. I've also seen at least one handheld VFR GPS that didn't do it. Like I say, I'm no expert.

Of course you can rid the unit of it's reverse sensing by hitting the GOTO sequence again.
Yup -- poor training on how a CDI presents information. You seem to be thinking that a CDI gives you left/right information, but it doesn't. It only gives you cardinal directional information (i.e., N/S, E/W), and you need to transfer that information to your heading indicator to determine whether that direction is to your left or to your right.

For example, let's assume the airplane was originally pointing north, the direction to the first nav point is north, and the course line from the airport reference point (ARP) to the first nav point is east of you. We'll also assume that you've twisted the CDI to put the course (360, or N) at the top of the CDI, as the OBS has no effect on needle positioning in GPS mode unless the GPS is in OBS mode, but it makes orientation a whole lot easier if you do it that way (and that's why most GPS's bug you if you don't set the CDI OBS to match the DTK). Since the courseline is east of you, the GPS will position the needle to the east side of the CDI (the side where the big E is). If you want to know whether that is to your left or to your right, you look at the heading indicator. With the plane pointing north, east is to your right, so the courseline is to your right, and you have to turn East (right) to get to that line. All's well, yes?

Now, you turn the plane around to the south. The big N is now at the bottom of the HI, the big S is at the top, and the big E is now on the left instead of the right. However, since your location with respect to the selected courseline hasn't changed (i.e., the courseline is still east of you), the needle remains pegged to the east side of the CDI (i.e., towards the big E on the OBS ring), which is still on the right side of the CDI. However, that does not mean then courseline is to your right, and it never did. If you want to know whether the course line is to your left or right, you'll have to take that information ("course line is to my east), look at the heading indicator, and see whether East is to your left or right. As noted above, after turning the plane around, the E on the HI is now to your left, so the course line is to your left.

However, in either case, since the CDI tells you the courseline is to your east, you will have to fly east to get to it no matter what your current heading is. To learn whether that will require a left or right turn requires you to look at your HI and see which way you have to turn from whatever heading you're currently on to turn in the shortest direction to East. If you're currently headed north, that will be right. If you're currently headed south, that will be left. IOW, the CDI only tells you the cardinal direction you need to fly to get to the courseline, not whether you will have to turn left or right. For that information, you must use the HI to decide whether that desired cardinal direction is to your left or your right.

For more on this subject, I suggest getting a copy of Peter Dogan's "Instrument Flight Training Manual" (widely available on the internet), and reading Chapter 5 - VOR Equipment, Orientation, and Tracking. It has a full discussion of this issue including diagrams.
 
I discovered this by flying the missed at an ILS 33 KFNL. I'd fly the inbound from COLLN, using the VOR/GS and when I got to 200' I'd go missed and climb. I had COLLN in my King KLN90B and the CDI needle would point to the left, because I was to the right of centerline. I'd do a climbing left turn back to COLLN and the needle would stay where it is, pointing to the left, an I KNEW COLLN was ahead and to my RIGHT. I was getting reverse sensing....

I saw it also flying a safety pilot with a guy that had a Garmin 430, we were essentially doing the same thing, flying the missed back to the outer marker, but at a different airport. He had reverse sensing also.

And yes, you just hit enter and it self corrects (unless it skips to the next waypoint, but that's a different story)
 
Let me just save everyone a whole bunch of trouble. Ron and I went though this a while back, he's 1000% right. While I'm still annoyed I got dragged into that argument at the time, I did learn something that makes CDI's much easier to read. Think of the CDI in terms of North/South/East/West and you will be so much better off. Additionally, it's not reverse sensing, it's just reverse orientation. The CDI will be exactly the same as before.

Additionally, I'm seeing where Ron got his pet peeve, this does seem like a misunderstanding that is quite widespread.
 
I discovered this by flying the missed at an ILS 33 KFNL. I'd fly the inbound from COLLN, using the VOR/GS and when I got to 200' I'd go missed and climb. I had COLLN in my King KLN90B and the CDI needle would point to the left, because I was to the right of centerline. I'd do a climbing left turn back to COLLN and the needle would stay where it is, pointing to the left, an I KNEW COLLN was ahead and to my RIGHT. I was getting reverse sensing....
No, you weren't. As discussed above, you were only getting reverse interpretation. The system was still sensing and displaying as it always had, and as it was designed.

I saw it also flying a safety pilot with a guy that had a Garmin 430, we were essentially doing the same thing, flying the missed back to the outer marker, but at a different airport. He had reverse sensing also.
Again, there is no "reverse sensing", just misinterpretation by the pilot.

And yes, you just hit enter and it self corrects (unless it skips to the next waypoint, but that's a different story)
The story may be different, but the conclusion is the same -- pilot misinterpretation, not "reverse sensing" by the system.
 
A great tool to use if you have a smartphone is the free VOR app. It simulates a CDI using GPS and VOR coordinates, install it and mess around with it in the car (when not driving of course). It only lets you use it for like 10 minutes a day in the free version but it's great for experimenting with a CDI in a moving vehicle.
 
Both the Jeppesen training manuals and the FAA (in the AIM) use the term "reverse sensing". It's ludicrous to maintain that it "doesn't exist".
 
Let me just save everyone a whole bunch of trouble. Ron and I went though this a while back, he's 1000% right. While I'm still annoyed I got dragged into that argument at the time, I did learn something that makes CDI's much easier to read. Think of the CDI in terms of North/South/East/West and you will be so much better off. Additionally, it's not reverse sensing, it's just reverse orientation. The CDI will be exactly the same as before.

Additionally, I'm seeing where Ron got his pet peeve, this does seem like a misunderstanding that is quite widespread.
I smell a revival in the old thread coming soon
 
I smell a revival in the old thread coming soon

Nooooooooooo! :mad2: Oh well, I'd rather laugh and admit that I learned something against my will than still be all butt-hurt about that mess.

Both the Jeppesen training manuals and the FAA (in the AIM) use the term "reverse sensing". It's ludicrous to maintain that it "doesn't exist".

They're wrong. What is it sensing backwards?
 
What are you two, like Pinky and the Brain?
One of you is crazy, and the other one is insane?

Why have positive values be up and to the right? You COULD have positive values being down and to the left. Well, ya gotta do one way or the other. So long as everyone knows what it means, who cares what you call it?

Or are you guys really just pulling my leg.......
 
That was my argument to Ron before but he convinced me that this thinking only contributes to the misunderstanding of CDI usage. Essentially the CDI (either GPS or VOR driven) can never "reverse sense". The term should be corrected to something like "reverse orientation". But, yes, it is just a rose by any other name.
 
OK. So you fly the G1000. Is it capable of "xxxxxxx xxxxxx"? or whatever you want to call it? I mean there is something going on there. I've even seen them "flip". And...I'm wondering if there isn't some Garmin/King difference in behavior. I know in my King, when I was in enroute mode it didn't matter where you turned the OBS knob. In OBS mode, it did matter. Not sure how Garmin handles that. And do the G1000's do it any differently than the 430's?
 
OK. So you fly the G1000. Is it capable of "xxxxxxx xxxxxx"? or whatever you want to call it? I mean there is something going on there. I've even seen them "flip". And...I'm wondering if there isn't some Garmin/King difference in behavior. I know in my King, when I was in enroute mode it didn't matter where you turned the OBS knob. In OBS mode, it did matter. Not sure how Garmin handles that. And do the G1000's do it any differently than the 430's?

Keep in mind the G1000 uses an HSI so it DEFINITELY can't do "reverse sensing" or "reverse orientation" (or whatever term we want to use).

And, yes, without being in OBS mode the CDI/HSI will only show you relative to the flight plan course, not the course selected.
 
Both the Jeppesen training manuals and the FAA (in the AIM) use the term "reverse sensing". It's ludicrous to maintain that it "doesn't exist".
Nevertheless, it doesn't exist other than as a misinterpretation in the mind of the pilot looking at the display. The system still senses and indicates in exactly the same way regardless of which way you're going on a localizer course. The on-going problem is pilot misinterpretation of the indications thanks to the continued use of that term by many parties, including the FAA. Your posts are a clear example of the problem that term creates. If you'd been properly taught from the beginning, and had never heard that term, you would understand the indications you saw and not think anything was wrong.
 
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OK. So you fly the G1000. Is it capable of "xxxxxxx xxxxxx"? or whatever you want to call it? I mean there is something going on there. I've even seen them "flip".
No way, unless you were located so close to the selected courseline that your turn radius took you from one side of the line to the other.

And...I'm wondering if there isn't some Garmin/King difference in behavior. I know in my King, when I was in enroute mode it didn't matter where you turned the OBS knob. In OBS mode, it did matter. Not sure how Garmin handles that. And do the G1000's do it any differently than the 430's?
They all work the same in that regard.

In all operational modes other than OBS mode, the OBS is not in the loop, and needle positioning is based purely on which cardinal direction you are located with respect to the straight line between the two points being used to navigate. In that case, selecting the DTK with the OBS helps orient you in your interpretation of the display, but has no effect on needle positioning at all.

In the OBS mode, only one point is considered, and the course line is drawn on the course selected by the OBS through the point in use, but the CDI needle is still positioned based on your cardinal direction from the computed courseline.

And this is all true of both Garmin and King, as well as every other GPS I've used (including Trimble, ARNAV, Apollo/UPSAT, and Northstar) that has an OBS mode.
 
Take a look at this youtube video on the Garmin 430.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmOw0V_DZ9M
The XTK has an arrow that is either right or left. You can see the unit point to the left when the course is to the right, and you can see the unit "flip" right to left.

The reason I bring it up, is this is a possible "trap". Much the same as the VOR pointer doing "reverse sensing" can be a trap. (I know some of you don't like that term, but Jepp and FAA use it so its good enough for most of us). If we are aware of the possibility of reverse sensing (there's that word again), then when it happens we wont fall into it's trap.

A crisis with the GPS in mid-miss in IMC can be a crisis for real. It took me a while to figure out what was going on. And I thought I'd pass what I learned on to others.

I ended up doing my "miss" with the DG and if I wanted the inbound course on the screen where I could see it and orient myself (for the miss), then I would put it in OBS mode. For an ILS, I would usually do that. Of course Im just using the GPS for overall guidance and guidance on the missed. I use the LOC/GS for the approach itself inside the outer marker. I usually found doing the missed primarily by the DG, and leave the GPS in OBS mode and be able to see I was paralleling the ILS while going back to the outer marker and try again.

It's just that I know some progress has been made in the IFR GPS's. And I was wondering how the newer models worked in this respect. I always thought that it would be best to have the missed in the flight plan. Then upon going missed, push the missed button and fly the GPS line, but I guess that's a bit much to ask?
 
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The plane has a King KLN90B and a King KX155 and a transponder. That's it. No DME, ADF, Marker Beacons. It has a VOR/GS and can receive localizer and Glideslope. It also has a Century 1 single axis autopilot. No room for any more avionics either. It has some redundancy, if the GPS fails, I still have the VOR. If the VOR (ILS) fails, I still have the GPS. Only one radio (biggest weakness).

The most common type of approach I do is an ILS. I want the outer marker to inner marker to be a GPS guidance/situational awareness course on my map. Usually I get radar vectors to the outer marker then fly the approach. And then at the missed I'd like the unit to beep at me I know I have to look at the altimeter for the missed). I know I am going to fly the ILS using the Localizer and the Glideslope but I use the GPS to get to the outer marker and for the missed which I usually go back to the outer marker.

The GPS gets me to the outer marker.
So the GPS acts to tell me when I am at the outer marker (beeps and flashes) and when Im at the MAP (beeps and flashes).
And the GPS gives me a look at the ILS course, the airport and I see my little airplane on the map flying its way back to the outer marker.

So should I put the GPS in OBS mode and fly the ILS? Then leave it in OBS mode and fly the missed in OBS mode? or some other method? Or should I go into enroute mode for the missed and get a course line back to the missed? What should my flight plan look like?
 
Yes, if you set the GPS to a course from point "A" to point "B" and then fly the course backwards (B to A) instead of flying to the needle to intercept the course you'll have to fly away from the needle (or as I like to visualize...drag the needle to you). Everybody understands that as "reverse sensing", .....well, almost everybody :rolleyes:
 
Take a look at this youtube video on the Garmin 430.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmOw0V_DZ9M
The XTK has an arrow that is either right or left. You can see the unit point to the left when the course is to the right, and you can see the unit "flip" right to left.

The reason I bring it up, is this is a possible "trap". Much the same as the VOR pointer doing "reverse sensing" can be a trap. (I know some of you don't like that term, but Jepp and FAA use it so its good enough for most of us). If we are aware of the possibility of reverse sensing (there's that word again), then when it happens we wont fall into it's trap.

A crisis with the GPS in mid-miss in IMC can be a crisis for real. It took me a while to figure out what was going on. And I thought I'd pass what I learned on to others.

I ended up doing my "miss" with the DG and if I wanted the inbound course on the screen where I could see it and orient myself (for the miss), then I would put it in OBS mode. For an ILS, I would usually do that. Of course Im just using the GPS for overall guidance and guidance on the missed. I use the LOC/GS for the approach itself inside the outer marker. I usually found doing the missed primarily by the DG, and leave the GPS in OBS mode and be able to see I was paralleling the ILS while going back to the outer marker and try again.

It's just that I know some progress has been made in the IFR GPS's. And I was wondering how the newer models worked in this respect. I always thought that it would be best to have the missed in the flight plan. Then upon going missed, push the missed button and fly the GPS line, but I guess that's a bit much to ask?
It seems you want GPS manufacturers to distort the presentation of information so as to make real a non-existent phenomenon merely because of your misinterpretation of the information due to your poor training on CDI interpretation. I don't expect the industry to do that.
 
Yes, if you set the GPS to a course from point "A" to point "B" and then fly the course backwards (B to A) instead of flying to the needle to intercept the course you'll have to fly away from the needle (or as I like to visualize...drag the needle to you). Everybody understands that as "reverse sensing", .....well, almost everybody :rolleyes:
I understand that many people call that "reverse sensing," but I also understand that the term is a symptom of the fundamental misunderstanding about CDI presentation (i.e., that CDI's give left/right steering information rather than showing cardinal direction location information) which confuses people and makes it harder to learn how to do VOR orientation, interception, and tracking, especially when flying a localizer backwards.
 
Wait. Am I reading this right? Ron, yes Ron, is actually disagreeing with the FAA on something? No wonder this winter has been so long. Hell did freeze over. Expect the Lions win the Super Bowl this year too!
 
I understand that many people call that "reverse sensing," but I also understand that the term is a symptom of the fundamental misunderstanding about CDI presentation (i.e., that CDI's give left/right steering information rather than showing cardinal direction location information) which confuses people and makes it harder to learn how to do VOR orientation, interception, and tracking, especially when flying a localizer backwards.
Ron,
Perhaps you should petition the FAA and your friends in the pilot training community to change the term to something you find more acceptable.
 
Ron,
Perhaps you should petition the FAA and your friends in the pilot training community to change the term to something you find more acceptable.
The issue is not whether I would find it more acceptable, but rather that it would not confuse people into thinking that sometimes the needle senses backwards -- because it doesn't do that.
 
Ron is so correct on this. The CDI needle and TO/FROM flag only tell you in which quadrant you are located.

In fact, in 1970, there was a proposed approach procedure published in "Pro Pilot" magazine. It described a quad-angular descent over any VOR, using four cardinal headings 360, 90, 180, 270.

You would fly direct to a VOR.

Each time the needle went from one side to the other, or the TO/FROM flag flipped, you would make a 90º turn. It worked particularly good in wind, because there was no timing or wind correction. Just fly and descend till the flag or needle flips, and make another 90.

If anyone collects those old magazines, I'd like to see the article again. It was authored by Lyle Flick, who was Robertson STOL Aircraft's chief pilot.
 
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Yes, the CDI needle in a GPS behaves much like a localizer. They even can "flip" much like a localizer. And yes, it's the "quadrant". I remember some FAA test questions where we had to figure out which quadrant the plane was in based on the localizer or VOR readings and settings.

One thing different about GPS, in leg mode, (or enroute mode, depends on what the mfg CALLS it), the OBS knob setting has no effect on the display. You can turn it anywhere you want, nothing happens. Yet the left/right indicator can flip (when passing the 'station'). At least that is what I saw the Garmin 430 do.

Like I said, I'm no expert.
 
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The issue is not whether I would find it more acceptable, but rather that it would not confuse people into thinking that sometimes the needle senses backwards -- because it doesn't do that.
If one understands the basics of how the instrument works, what it's telling you and the implications of that one shouldn't be confused.
 
If one understands the basics of how the instrument works, what it's telling you and the implications of that one shouldn't be confused.
I agree. But speaking from the perspective of a couple of thousand hours of instrument training given, pilots' understanding of that is often confused because of that term and the underlying misconception that a CDI gives left/right steering information, and that is a significant barrier to obtaining correct understanding of CDI interpretation.
 
I understand that many people call that "reverse sensing," but I also understand that the term is a symptom of the fundamental misunderstanding about CDI presentation (i.e., that CDI's give left/right steering information rather than showing cardinal direction location information) which confuses people and makes it harder to learn how to do VOR orientation, interception, and tracking, especially when flying a localizer backwards.

Instruments don't sense anything - they display information as programed to do. If the pilot knows what is going on, ie back course approach, their is no reverse sensing. The human confusion is the reverse sensing.
 
If there's no "reverse" sensing in an airplane if you go opposite the direction it's meant to go, then there's no "reverse" in a car either. So, y'all better come up with another descriptor for that too while you're at it. :crazy:

dtuuri
 
I agree. But speaking from the perspective of a couple of thousand hours of instrument training given, pilots' understanding of that is often confused because of that term and the underlying misconception that a CDI gives left/right steering information, and that is a significant barrier to obtaining correct understanding of CDI interpretation.
Put your student to tracking a VOR radial, then have him make a 180* standard rate turn and re-intercept the course without changing the OBS, that aught'a bring to light any misconceptions he might have about these things?
 
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