Required Placards

D

Danny Dub

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Feb 7, 2018
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Danny Dub
I noticed my aircraft has no placards at the fuel tanks (faded I should say). So I figure that needs fixing but where could I find a list of required Placards for my Aircraft?

Cessna 175a (1960)

Thanks as always!

Dan
 
Danny Dub said:
where could I find a list of required Placards for my Aircraft?
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This is about as close as you can get to the Twilight Zone or Outer Limits in aviation. While I think your 1960 C170 came with a AFM it was before the year it was mandatory so not all placards may be listed in it. To add to the references above, here's another list of possible references:
AFM
TCDS
ADs
STCs
337s
Complied with airframe/engine/prop OEM bulletins
Installed equipment not covered by above references
Regulatory placards like for inop equipment or experimental

It might seem like overkill but the #1 gig on a ramp check for all ops (91, 135, 121) is faded or missing placards.
 
I have heard that placards are the easiest item to get busted on so I'm very interested in being compliant! (And also, first annual since purchase due this month!)
 
I’ve made my own panel placards using a color laser printer with sticker paper. Consolidated 8 related placards into one for example. More uniformity in appearance looks better too, IMHO.
 
Bell206 said:
This is about as close as you can get to the Twilight Zone or Outer Limits in aviation. While I think your 1960 C170 came with a AFM it was before the year it was mandatory so not all placards may be listed in it. To add to the references above, here's another list of possible references:
AFM
TCDS
ADs
STCs
337s
Complied with airframe/engine/prop OEM bulletins
Installed equipment not covered by above references
Regulatory placards like for inop equipment or experimental

It might seem like overkill but the #1 gig on a ramp check for all ops (91, 135, 121) is faded or missing placards.
Click to expand...

Lol exactly, there is no one document covers all possibilities.
 
Tom-D said:
Yes there is, but very few people ever see it.. production certificate
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A production certificate is what a company needs to manufacture an aircraft or or component. It approves the tools, processes, facility and quality system to build them. It does not have all that much to do with aircraft design and certification which would be part 23, 25, 27 etc.

Aircraft placards change in service, can be modified by many different things and that list in post #5 is correct.
 
bnt83 said:
A production certificate is what a company needs to manufacture an aircraft or or component. It approves the tools, processes, facility and quality system to build them. It does not have all that much to do with aircraft design and certification which would be part 23, 25, 27 etc.

Aircraft placards change in service, can be modified by many different things and that list in post #5 is correct.
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You must know what you are building before you can design a system to build it. yer right placard requirements can change, as the aircraft changes, but seldom do except at a model / year change, then the placard requirement will change in the production certificate for that year.
It would be a strange occurrence that a placard will be changed mid year with out doing it with an AD or STC.
The one I catch most is the airspeed marking in the airspeed indicator, owner will change the indicator, and forget the markings.
 
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Tom-D said:
You must know what you are building before you can design a system to build it. yer right placard requirements can change, as the aircraft changes, but seldom do except at a model / year change, then the placard requirement will change in the production certificate for that year.
It would be a strange occurrence that a placard will be changed mid year with out doing it with an AD or STC.
The one I catch most is the airspeed marking in the airspeed indicator, owner will change the indicator, and forget the markings.
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What you are building = Type Certificate

Where & how you are gonna build it = Production Certificate
 
Tom-D said:
The one I catch most is the.......
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For me, is the placards required by a field approval 337 or its ICAs. Especially back in the pre-STC Garmin 150 days when a "GPS for VFR only" placard was required on the 337.
 
If you search my old posts there is a website that sells a full kit of all the decals and they are the correct font and all
 
There is a "gotcha" placard that is listed in the O-200 TCDS. The oil servicing placard that is supposed to be on the access door. Required by Continental, but is affixed to the airframe.
 
prod_cert
21.137
(d) Manufacturing process control. Procedures for controlling manufacturing processes to ensure that each product and article conforms to its approved design.

Once you have an approved type design ( TCDS ) the production certificate insures the product conforms. (It must have a list of placards to do that).
 
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Bell206 said:
For me, is the placards required by a field approval 337 or its ICAs. Especially back in the pre-STC Garmin 150 days when a "GPS for VFR only" placard was required on the 337.
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Most of my customers made the jump from paper to an iPad, and have long since removed any GPSs
 
NordicDave said:
I’ve made my own panel placards using a color laser printer with sticker paper. Consolidated 8 related placards into one for example. More uniformity in appearance looks better too, IMHO.
Click to expand...

Would love to see a pic, if you have it. Thanks!
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Would love to see a pic, if you have it. Thanks!
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Top one is the fuel placards which is placed near the fuel gauges as required; and the lower one is a consolidation of turbo-normalized placards for the Rajay Turbo STC which is placed near the waste gate control.

Placards_zpsssfjnis3.jpeg
 
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Tom-D said:
prod_cert
21.137
(d) Manufacturing process control. Procedures for controlling manufacturing processes to ensure that each product and article conforms to its approved design.

Once you have an approved type design ( TCDS ) the production certificate insures the product conforms. (It must have a list of placards to do that).
Click to expand...

Wrong again (when talking about aircraft production) the required placards are in the drawings that were used to apply for a type cerificate for each model aircraft. Those drawings are physically used to manufacture the parts, placards are parts, even have a part # and are on those drawings.

Production Certificate is a lot like an RSGOM IMHO, defining how the factory will build the airplanes, tool control, calibration procedures, auditing, reporting & correction of non-conformances etc. None of that is part of the TCDS hence the need for the PC.


We don't have to have a production certificate to pursue a type certificate; you cannot get a type certificate until the aircraft is assembled and conforms to the drawings (including placards) and has shown compliance with the regulations. After that we could license anyone to build it, but they would need the production certificate.
 
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bnt83 said:
Wrong again (when talking about aircraft production) the required placards are in the drawings that were used to apply for a type cerificate for each model aircraft. Those drawings are physically used to manufacture the parts, placards are parts, even have a part # and are on those drawings.

Production Certificate is a lot like an RSGOM IMHO, defining how the factory will build the airplanes, tool control, calibration procedures, auditing, reporting & correction of non-conformances etc. None of that is part of the TCDS hence the need for the PC.


We don't have to have a production certificate to pursue a type certificate; you cannot get a type certificate until the aircraft is assembled and conforms to the drawings (including placards) and has shown compliance with the regulations. After that we could license anyone to build it, but they would need the production certificate
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Right from the FAA home page.
A production certificate is an approval (document) to manufacture duplicate products under an FAA-approved type design (e.g., type certificate or supplemental type certificate). The holder of a production certificate may obtain an airworthiness certificate for aircraft produced under the production certificate without further showing. To obtain one, the production application and approval process must be followed.
 
Tom-D said:
Right from the FAA home page.
A production certificate is an approval (document) to manufacture duplicate products under an FAA-approved type design (e.g., type certificate or supplemental type certificate). The holder of a production certificate may obtain an airworthiness certificate for aircraft produced under the production certificate without further showing. To obtain one, the production application and approval process must be followed.
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Great, what are they duplicating? The parts on the drawings in the TC.
 
bnt83 said:
Great, what are they duplicating? The parts on the drawings in the TC.
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Yep, the drawings/blueprints in the Production certificate that state what is the standard. The P/C may be simply for a special nut FAA-PMAed after market, Prime example, the after market cylinders produced as STC or direct replacement.
Production certificates are not always for whole aircraft, but when they are they are obtained under the same rules as after market parts, and will contain every part that will be produced.
21.135 (d) (quality Assurance) programs could not be could not be accomplished without them.

And yes, decals have part numbers, (I assumed every one knew that, bad me) as does every nut, bolt, and washer in every assembly.
 
NordicDave said:
I’ve made my own panel placards using a color laser printer with sticker paper. Consolidated 8 related placards into one for example. More uniformity in appearance looks better too, IMHO.
Click to expand...

I actually just ordered a laser printer, technically it's titled a laser cutter, but I doubt it's really powerful enough to cut much. I've been looking at materials to make placards, there's some really cool stuff out there, if the thing works out maybe I can offer it as a service.
 
Tom-D said:
Yep, the drawings/blueprints in the Production certificate that state what is the standard.
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Curious. If the drawings/blueprints/placards are listed in the PC, why are the specific requirements for these items listed in Part 23, 25, 27, and 29 for the issuance of a Type Certificate and not listed in part 21 Subpart G for the issuance of a Production Certificate? Also, if the PC is that important, how would someone produce a product under Part 21 Subpart F "Production Under a Type Certificate (without a PC)" if all the required information is in a Production Certificate that doesn't exist? :)
 
Bell206 said:
Curious. If the drawings/blueprints/placards are listed in the PC, why are the specific requirements for these items listed in Part 23, 25, 27, and 29 for the issuance of a Type Certificate and not listed in part 21 Subpart G for the issuance of a Production Certificate? Also, if the PC is that important, how would someone produce a product under Part 21 Subpart F "Production Under a Type Certificate (without a PC)" if all the required information is in a Production Certificate that doesn't exist? :)
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Read it again.

Production Certificate

A production certificate is an approval (document) to manufacture duplicate products under an FAA-approved type design (e.g., type certificate or supplemental type certificate). The holder of a production certificate may obtain an airworthiness certificate for aircraft produced under the production certificate without further showing. To obtain one, the production application and approval process must be followed.

Then answer.

Which came first? type design or Production certificate ?

And no you don't need a production certificate to build aircraft, many are built one off and certified on their own merits.
but they are not duplications. think about it. Waco
 
Tom-D said:
Read it again.

Production Certificate

A production certificate is an approval (document) to manufacture duplicate products under an FAA-approved type design (e.g., type certificate or supplemental type certificate). The holder of a production certificate may obtain an airworthiness certificate for aircraft produced under the production certificate without further showing. To obtain one, the production application and approval process must be followed.

Then answer.

Which came first? type design or Production certificate ?

And no you don't need a production certificate to build aircraft, many are built one off and certified on their own merits.
but they are not duplications. think about it. Waco
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Sorry. I have no clue what point is trying to be made. Please clarify.
 
Tom-D said:
Which came first? type design or Production certificate ?
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Ha. Type Design (i.e., Type Certificate). You can't even apply for a Production Certificate until you have an approved TC or STC. Take your pick: Order 8120.22A, Ch 3; AC 21-43; or, Form 8110.12.

Unless this is one of those special exemptions you get from the Seattle FSDO like the one on no aircraft equipment lists are required in WA..........
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Where can a guy find a production certificate for a 175A?
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Cessna used to sell copies of the certificates as a novelty years ago but haven't seen any in recent times. The documents are similar to a STC certificate and Operating Certificate.
 
Bell206 said:
Ha. Type Design (i.e., Type Certificate). You can't even apply for a Production Certificate until you have an approved TC or STC. Take your pick: Order 8120.22A, Ch 3; AC 21-43; or, Form 8110.12.
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Now your starting to catch on.
Now show the rules to get a PC. and you'll know what is required to be in the PC.
Just so ya get it right.

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/production_approvals/prod_cert/prod_approv_proc/

  • Conducts a quality system audit to determine compliance with the applicable requirements of 14 CFR part 21. This audit evaluates the applicant's organization, production facility, quality system, and approved quality system and design data for compliance with applicable requirements.
IOWs they will review every item of the design. How will they do that? mental telepathy? or review every blueprint for every part, and every portion of the design?

Starting to wonder why we haven't seen many new aircraft lately?
 
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Tom-D said:
Now your starting to catch on.
Now show the rules to get a PC. and you'll know what is required to be in the PC.
Just so ya get it right.

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/production_approvals/prod_cert/prod_approv_proc/

  • Conducts a quality system audit to determine compliance with the applicable requirements of 14 CFR part 21. This audit evaluates the applicant's organization, production facility, quality system, and approved quality system and design data for compliance with applicable requirements.
IOWs they will review every item of the design. How will they do that? mental telepathy? or review every blueprint for every part, and every portion of the design?

Starting to wonder why we haven't seen many new aircraft lately?
Click to expand...

What has production certificates got to do with finding out what placards are required to installed?

Yes Cessna needs a type certified aircraft before they will be allowed to produce them in numbers. Getting the type certificate and the production certificate is their responsibility. I am more interested in ensuring airworthiness to design and operational standards 50 years later.

For fuel quantity and minimum grade:

CAR3 basis of cert = 3.767
FAR23 basis of cert = 23.1557
Canadian basis of cert = 523.1557
 
JAWS said:
What has production certificates got to do with finding out what placards are required to installed?

Yes Cessna needs a type certified aircraft before they will be allowed to produce them in numbers. Getting the type certificate and the production certificate is their responsibility. I am more interested in ensuring airworthiness to design and operational standards 50 years later.

For fuel quantity and minimum grade:

CAR3 basis of cert = 3.767
FAR23 basis of cert = 23.1557
Canadian basis of cert = 523.1557
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Follow and read the links I've posted you figure it out.
 
Tom-D said:
Now your starting to catch on.
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Yeah. You've lived a sheltered life....

Tom-D said:
Starting to wonder why we haven't seen many new aircraft lately?
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Has nothing to do with the certificate process. Entirely market driven. I can think of a dozen or so new aircraft models in the past 10 years. If you include LSAs double that number. But GA the market is flat. No one will pay $500K for a new model that does the same thing as a 30 year-old $80K aircraft. But new aircraft are certified every year.
 
Bell206 said:
Yeah. You've lived a sheltered life....


Has nothing to do with the certificate process. Entirely market driven.
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Personal opinion
Certification costs for production produced aircraft is a major factor in the high costs of new aircraft.
Thats a fact.
 
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