Reporting Crewmember Incapacitation?

[Rushie]

Who is this guy? Someone mentioned him in a thread the other day about how he’s already explained something. I went looking for it, no Ron Levy but it turns out he is known as poadeleted20. It looks like no posts here since 2015.

Is this the thread you’re thinking about? Post #138, @Witmo served with him in the Air Force. I thought I’d remembered he was military. Navy and Air Force.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...aps-cessna-is-it-ok.28180/page-4#post-3135288

 

[Rushie]

Ron is like cod liver oil some of us used to be forced to take when we were children. Good for the body but tastes like hell. Ron is mostly right, but his style and delivery certainly turns a lot of people off. And his constant obsession with citing Chief Counsel opinions as though they were Gospel is beyond annoying. Ron is currently tormenting Grumman Gang members. Is there any group he hasn’t ****ed off at one time or another?

Yeah, he’s like the father in the Sound of Music before Julie Andrews comes along and tames him. Well-intentioned but very strict, runs his kids like they’re in the military. And he (von Trapp) is a Navy Captain too.

 

[luvflyin]

Yeah, he’s like the father in the Sound of Music before Julie Andrews comes along and tames him. Well-intentioned but very strict, runs his kids like they’re in the military. And he (von Trapp) is a Navy Captain too.

That’s the thread. Someone said something like Henning and Ron Levy solved this years ago. So I went up and looked for it. No Ron Levy but it was clear Henning and poadeleted20 were going back and forth. So I started asking questions about how screen names work. I never really cared that much about was Levy a good guy or a bad guy. Just who was he and why all the screen name hocus pocus. But I’ve learned some opinions of him along the way.

 

[Kritchlow]

Signing for the plane is a “normal flight duty”????? It clear to me this is only applicable to two person (or more in the case of, for example, flight attendants) crew required by the FAA to operate the aircraft.

Cheers

Not sure what you’re asking, but if you are the designated PIC and can no longer perform you duties…

 

[Palmpilot]

The way I see it, if he signed for the plane, he is required. Just so happens there was someone else qualified to fly the airplane.

Not sure what you’re asking, but if you are the designated PIC and can no longer perform you duties…

As I understand it, who signs for the plane does not necessarily determine who the PIC is in noncommercial operations. However if he was the designated PIC at the time of the incapacitation, then the rule would seem to apply.

 

[Kritchlow]

As I understand it, who "signs for the plane" does not necessarily determine who the PIC is in noncommercial operations.

Regardless, the initial post states “the inability of a required crew member..”

If the guy flying was a required crew member, he must have been designated PIC.

 

[Palmpilot]

Regardless, the initial post states “the inability of a required crew member..”

If the guy flying was a required crew member, he must have been designated PIC.

See my edit, which I wrote while you were typing.

 

[Clip4]

The rule defines an “operator” as “any person who causes or authorizes the operation of an aircraft” As a passenger/pilot it is unlikely you were the operator. As a passenger, you may have been prohibited from authorizing the flight depending on the circumstances.

The operator is the party required to make any report.
The crewmembers, if they are physically able at the time the report is submitted, attach a statement providing the facts, conditions, and circumstances relating to the accident or incident as they appear to him or her.

The pilot/passenger is not required to make the report. Its up to the operator to turn himself in.

 

[Lindberg]

Regardless, the initial post states “the inability of a required crew member..”

If the guy flying was a required crew member, he must have been designated PIC.

The OP is asking if the other pilot is a required crewmember.

 

[Lindberg]

Not sure what you’re asking, but if you are the designated PIC and can no longer perform you duties…

I often fly with other pilots, and on exactly one flight in my flying lifetime was there a "designated PIC." I know, I'm courting disaster.

 

[Albany Tom]

So right after "hold my beer while I try this", should be "Huh, I thought you said YOU had a valid medical?" while in flight. Or certificate, sobriety, type rating, etc...

 

[Kritchlow]

The OP is asking if the other pilot is a required crewmember.

?? Huh? He asked if the report should be filed. That in and I’d itself should answer your question.

 

[Kritchlow]

I often fly with other pilots, and on exactly one flight in my flying lifetime was there a "designated PIC." I know, I'm courting disaster.

I’m beginning to think you like to start an argument, even if there is no argument to be made.

 

[Palmpilot]

I often fly with other pilots, and on exactly one flight in my flying lifetime was there a "designated PIC." I know, I'm courting disaster.

Someone is fulfilling the role of PIC, no?

 

[X3 Skier]

Somebody tell me what is a “required crew member” for a 172. Not who is PIC at any given instant.

Are two “required” by the FAA? If so, are all solo 172 flights in violation?

Is signing a piece of paper in an office a “normal flight duty”? If so, is a airline dispatcher a “required crew member”?

If second pilot says “I have the airplane”, is the other pilot a “required crew member”? If so, then what is the other pilot’s “normal flight duty”?

Speaking of Capt Levy, should someone ask the FAA General Counsel these questions?

If I was the OP, I would feel zero obligation to report anything to anybody except to ATC if I felt it was a medical emergency for anybody in the airplane, be they a pilot or a passenger. Others feel he should.

Cheers

 

[Hang 4]

Pilot gets sick. Let’s say just a stomach bug. Another pilot is right seat and takes over. It gets reported. What useful thing results from this report?

 

[bflynn]

The pilot is a required crew member. Whether or not there is a qualified pilot in the right seat who didn’t have the fish is irrelevant.

As the passenger, you have no legal obligation to do anything, but if you hold advanced ratings, the FAA may disagree. The operator must decide if the event rises to the level requiring a report and you are not the operator. A pilot throwing up in their flight bag is very different than a pilot passing out.

 

[FORANE]

This all started because of some bad fish, right?

 

[Bill]

This all started because of some bad fish, right?

but obviously good fishing!

 

[Rushie]

According to 1.1 General definitions:

“Flightcrew member means a pilot, flight engineer, or flight navigator assigned to duty in an aircraft during flight time.“

I can’t find the definition for “required flightcrew member”. So assuming that it’s dependent on the type aircraft, we all know the C172 only requires a single pilot. But it doesn’t limit you to one. It’s not explicitly stated, but the intent is clearly “at least one”. Nothing prevents you from having another equivalent crew person aboard.

But notice that “flightcrew member” says nothing about who is PIC. The requirement is that they all be aboard and certified, rated, current.

Also notice “assigned”. When you take out your 172, or rent one, you are self assigning yourself as the pilot (the required crewmember). But if you have a qualified friend along, there is nothing preventing that friend from also being a “crewmember”. A C172 requires at least one qualified pilot but does not limit it to one, and, does not require that crewmember to be in the left seat.

Therefore, because the definition says nothing about who is acting PIC, both can be considered a “required crewmember” for the entire flight! But, to use an electrical analogy, they are in parallel, not series, so that if one fails, the other is sufficient.

My first analysis saying you had to say “My airplane” and take over PIC was wrong. Once the first pilot becomes incapacitated, the other pilot is “assigned” the duty by default.

Therefore no report is necessary. You had a spare required crewmember aboard all along.

 

[David Megginson]

According to 1.1 General definitions:

“Flightcrew member means a pilot, flight engineer, or flight navigator assigned to duty in an aircraft during flight time.“

I can’t find the definition for “required flightcrew member”. So assuming that it’s dependent on the type aircraft, we all know the C172 only requires a single pilot. But it doesn’t limit you to one. It’s not explicitly stated, but the intent is clearly “at least one”. Nothing prevents you from having another equivalent crew person aboard.

But notice that “flightcrew member” says nothing about who is PIC. The requirement is that they all be aboard and certified, rated, current.

Also notice “assigned”. When you take out your 172, or rent one, you are self assigning yourself as the pilot (the required crewmember). But if you have a qualified friend along, there is nothing preventing that friend from also being a “crewmember”. A C172 requires at least one qualified pilot but does not limit it to one, and, does not require that crewmember to be in the left seat.

Therefore, because the definition says nothing about who is acting PIC, both can be considered a “required crewmember” for the entire flight! But, to use an electrical analogy, they are in parallel, not series, so that if one fails, the other is sufficient.

My first analysis saying you had to say “My airplane” and take over PIC was wrong. Once the first pilot becomes incapacitated, the other pilot is “assigned” the duty by default.

Therefore no report is necessary. You had a spare required crewmember aboard all along.

By that creative interpretation, if the captain or first officer of a 747 halfway across the Atlantic became incapacitated from food poisoning, but there was another deadheading company pilot in the jumpseat able and qualified to step in, that wouldn't be reportable either.

 

[Rushie]

By that creative interpretation, if the captain or first officer of a 747 halfway across the Atlantic became incapacitated from food poisoning, but there was another deadheading company pilot in the jumpseat able and qualified to step in, that wouldn't be reportable either.

No, that’s different because in that situation the crew is “assigned” by the company. Therefore the deadheading pilot was never connected up in parallel (to torture the analogy to death) and hence never an automatic spare.

 

[David Megginson]

No, that’s different because in that situation the crew is “assigned” by the company. Therefore the deadheading pilot was never connected up in parallel (to torture the analogy to death) and hence never an automatic spare.

Interesting discussion. From my understanding (which might be wrong — not an aviation lawyer), the Cessna 172 requires a single crew member — the PIC — so whoever was acting as pilot in command at the moment the airplane left the ground was the sole required crew member, and the one who would have been held responsible later for any violations, regardless of who was actually at the controls.

 

[Lindberg]

I’m beginning to think you like to start an argument, even if there is no argument to be made.

Because I eschew assumptions? Not all flying is airline flying, nor need it be. I've never "signed for" an aircraft in my life, and as I said, I've been "designated PIC" once. So who's a required crewmember when my partner and I fly our Cessna?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

so whoever was acting as pilot in command at the moment the airplane left the ground was the sole required crew member, and the one who would have been held responsible later for any violations, regardless of who was actually at the controls.

Cool! So, like, if I have some random guy from the airport act as PIC for the takeoff, I can finally fly under that bridge without worrying about getting caught!!!!

 

[Palmpilot]

According to 1.1 General definitions:

“Flightcrew member means a pilot, flight engineer, or flight navigator assigned to duty in an aircraft during flight time.“

I can’t find the definition for “required flightcrew member”. So assuming that it’s dependent on the type aircraft, we all know the C172 only requires a single pilot. But it doesn’t limit you to one. It’s not explicitly stated, but the intent is clearly “at least one”. Nothing prevents you from having another equivalent crew person aboard.

But notice that “flightcrew member” says nothing about who is PIC. The requirement is that they all be aboard and certified, rated, current.

Also notice “assigned”. When you take out your 172, or rent one, you are self assigning yourself as the pilot (the required crewmember). But if you have a qualified friend along, there is nothing preventing that friend from also being a “crewmember”. A C172 requires at least one qualified pilot but does not limit it to one, and, does not require that crewmember to be in the left seat.

Therefore, because the definition says nothing about who is acting PIC, both can be considered a “required crewmember” for the entire flight! But, to use an electrical analogy, they are in parallel, not series, so that if one fails, the other is sufficient.

My first analysis saying you had to say “My airplane” and take over PIC was wrong. Once the first pilot becomes incapacitated, the other pilot is “assigned” the duty by default.

Therefore no report is necessary. You had a spare required crewmember aboard all along.

When it says "required" crewmember, I think it means required by regulations. As far as I know, the only time the regulations require two crewmembers in a 172 is when the plane is being operated in simulated instrument flight per 91.109(c).

 

[Sluggo63]

When it says "required" crewmember, I think it means required by regulations. As far as I know, the only time the regulations require two crewmembers in a 172 is when the plane is being operated in simulated instrument flight per 91.109(c).

I'm guessing it could be regulations or ops specs. I'm trying to come up with a legitimate example. Let's say a 135 operation does charters in a PC-12, which is certified for single-pilot operations, but they write in their ops specs that it will be flown two-pilot exclusively. I would say that both pilots would be considered required in this inane situation we're discussing.

 

[David Megginson]

Cool! So, like, if I have some random guy from the airport act as PIC for the takeoff, I can finally fly under that bridge without worrying about getting caught!!!!

If he agrees he's PIC for the flight (and will admit it to the FAA afterwards), then I guess so. A flight has one pilot in command.

 

[David Megginson]

"Required crew member(s)" isn't that complicated — it's the one(s) allowed to log the flight (leaving out dual training).

 

[Palmpilot]

I'm guessing it could be regulations or ops specs. I'm trying to come up with a legitimate example. Let's say a 135 operation does charters in a PC-12, which is certified for single-pilot operations, but they write in their ops specs that it will be flown two-pilot exclusively. I would say that both pilots would be considered required in this inane situation we're discussing.

Isn't compliance with ops specs required by regulation?

 

[Palmpilot]

"Required crew member(s)" isn't that complicated — it's the one(s) allowed to log the flight (leaving out dual training).

In the U.S., you don't have to be the pilot-in-command to log PIC time. The former is governed by 14 CFR 1.1, the latter by 14 CFR 61.51(e). This has been confirmed by Chief Counsel opinions.

 

[David Megginson]

In the U.S., you don't have to be the pilot-in-command to log PIC time. The former is governed by 14 CFR 1.1, the latter by 14 CFR 61.51(e). This has been confirmed by Chief Counsel opinions.

So two pilots flying a C172 together can both log the whole flight as PIC in the US? That's both weird and interesting — thanks!

But I assume they're still only one actual PIC for each flight who's responsible for it.

 

[Rushie]

In the U.S., you don't have to be the pilot-in-command to log PIC time. The former is governed by 14 CFR 1.1, the latter by 14 CFR 61.51(e). This has been confirmed by Chief Counsel opinions.

This has been beaten into a pulp on this and every board I’ve ever been on. Logging PIC and acting PIC are two completely separate things, so much so they really should find another name for one of them. For the purpose of OP’s question, logging PIC is totally irrelevant. I have no idea what it’s like in Canada though.

 

[Rushie]

So two pilots flying a C172 together can both log the whole flight as PIC in the US? That's both weird and interesting — thanks!

But I assume they're still only one actual PIC for each flight who's responsible for it.

No. Only the one manipulating the controls can. Unless the other is a CFI and also acting PIC. As far as I remember, it’s been a while.

Yes, only one is acting PIC.

 

[David Megginson]

This has been beaten into a pulp on this and every board I’ve ever been on. Logging PIC and acting PIC are two completely separate things, so much so they really should find another name for one of them. For the purpose of OP’s question, logging PIC is totally irrelevant. I have no idea what it’s like in Canada though.

I'll check the CARs, but I think this might be a uniquely American thing. So my logging test doesn't help, but there's still just one actual PIC for any flight, no?

 

[David Megginson]

Logging PIC and acting PIC are two completely separate things, so much so they really should find another name for one of them.

Don't the airlines use something like "PF" (pilot flying) for the pilot actually manipulating the controls? My understanding (which again could be wrong) is that the PIC of, say, an Airbus doesn't actually have to touch the controls from take off to touchdown to be PIC (they could let the SIC fly the whole thing), any more than the captain of a ship has to actually take the helm, but both still ultimately have legal responsibility.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

there's still just one actual PIC for any flight,

Yes. One pilot acting as PIC.
And, for the most part, one pilot logging PIC (there are a couple exceptions where two can log, and some where, according to a strict reading of the regulations, none can log).
May or may not be the same person.

 

[Rushie]

I'll check the CARs, but I think this might be a uniquely American thing. So my logging test doesn't help, but there's still just one actual PIC for any flight, no?

Our posts are crossing but yes, just one acting PIC. However it might not be who you think it is. There has been at least one case where the pilot in the left seat thought he was acting PIC, and had a more highly rated CFI in the back seat as a passenger, and an accident or incident happened and the FAA found that the CFI in the back seat was the legally accountable acting PIC. I’m going purely on memory here from years back, somebody correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[David Megginson]

Yes. One pilot acting as PIC.
And, for the most part, one pilot logging PIC (there are a couple exceptions where two can log, and some where, according to a strict reading of the regulations, none can log).
May or may not be the same person.

Thanks for the clarification. So to the original point, then, the PIC of the flight in the OP was the sole required crew member of the Cessna 172 when they became incapacitated (since the C172 does not require an SIC), no?

 

[Rushie]

Don't the airlines use something like "PF" (pilot flying) for the pilot actually manipulating the controls? My understanding (which again could be wrong) is that the PIC of, say, an Airbus doesn't actually have to touch the controls from take off to touchdown to be PIC (they could let the SIC fly the whole thing), any more than the captain of a ship has to actually take the helm, but both still ultimately have legal responsibility.

I guess Otto can fly the whole thing these days, and nobody need touch the controls for somebody to be acting PIC. I’m not sure how it works in commercial multi-crew flights. I think your take is right, somebody else clarify?