Reno Air Races 2011.... Serious Crash

As for the very little pieces left over from the plane... check out this test video. Also demonstrates why so little of the transport category aircraft (other than engines and landing gear components) could be found at the WTC or Pentagon.

 
Bob Bement said:
How many died in the crowd when the wind blew the stage over at a concert of some kind here just recently? Are they going to cancel all future concerts because the stage collapsed? I doubt it.
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But thats different....

via Tapatalk
 
gprellwitz said:
My understanding is that those pilots who do high G maneuvers without a G suit go through an exercise where they consciously clench their lower extremeties and do a series of breathing exercises in order to tolerate the G forces. The pilot here would have had no opportunity to do that whatsoever. He could have been an 18 year old triathelete, and I think that at 8-10 Gs with no preparation he would have been incapacitated. It's tragic, but I don't think it's an age thing.
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G-suit (leggings) provided only about one extra g of tolerance. Breathing technique and specific muscle clenching provide most of g-tolerance.
 
I read somewhere that GG had 10 feet removed from the fuselage. I do not know how that would effect recovery at that speed. The following is my opinion from seeing everything. I don't know yet. The NTSB has the info and they will investigate all they can. As far as the age of the pilot? Sometimes experience beats age and sometimes events overtake even the best.

As far as the odds go? Heads up, there is a satellite hunting all of us right now.
 
This guy is really lucky to be alive to post these incredible pictures. I'm amazed he had the poise to shoot them.

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Source and story:

http://www.ignomini.com/reno.html
 

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In the last sequence I just posted, check out the right elevator's trim tab (on the left in the inverted picture). He lost the one on the left in flight. Then compare that picture with this:

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denverpilot said:
http://alertpage1.posterous.com/renonv-air-race-crash-september-16-2011-415-h

As an Incident Command System trained Communications person, after analyzing this audio recording of the Reno/Sparks NV EMS folks, they deserve a big pat on the back.

By 11 minutes in, they had three helicopters and 13 ambulances inbound or on-scene, and by 30 minutes into the incident they had more EMS resources than they needed inbound, including four more helicopters, two from out of state and numerous ambulances still enroute with one without an assignment in the Staging area. All inbound units were cancelled a couple minutes later.

There are some ICS gaffs (there always are), the main obvious one being that PD and EMS dispatch nor on-scene command were on the same songsheet for ingress and egress routes, but in all... this is a lot more coordinated than a lot of training tapes I've studied. There's some "lessons learned", but in all, amazingly good job.

The Medical Branch Director was also having to do a bit of over-the-air OJT for some non-supervisory EMS folks who weren't 100% up to speed, but they were also busy and dual-hatted without some extra ICS-trained supervisors on-scene.

Not bad. Some lessons learned, but it's pretty good work for a Mass Casualty Incident.
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Wow, I just had time to listen to this 45 minutes of dispatch audio. Very impressive. It's obvious they had practiced / coordinated this before. Bravo.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
In the last sequence I just posted, check out the right elevator's trim tab (on the left in the inverted picture). He lost the one on the left in flight. Then compare that picture with this:
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What should we be seeing? I must be missing it.
 
And now the news has hit home locally... Someone who was missing and unaccounted for has been positively identified as one of the fatalities. Craig Salerno, a volunteer with the Wings over Houston airshow, and a Lieutenant with Friendswood Volunteer Fire Department, was one of the fatalities.

I dont know him personally, but I know dozens of his colleagues on a first name basis, including one who's a reservist deployed in The 'Stan... The news just broke today.

http://galvestondailynews.com/story/259186/
 
Sorry if this has been talked about, but a new theory is emerging from the mechanics that work on the P-51. Elevator trim loss caused plane to pitch up violently breaking the pilot's seat. This would explain why in come of the final pictures here is no pilot. He was laying in a position where he could no longer reach the controls.

Just a theory, but it seems to put the pieces together.
 
Geico266 said:
Sorry if this has been talked about, but a new theory is emerging from the mechanics that work on the P-51. Elevator trim loss caused plane to pitch up violently breaking the pilot's seat. This would explain why in come of the final pictures here is no pilot. He was laying in a position where he could no longer reach the controls.

Just a theory, but it seems to put the pieces together.
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This same mechanic was quoted on fox news as saying the a/c stalled...
 
Geico266 said:
Sorry if this has been talked about, but a new theory is emerging from the mechanics that work on the P-51. Elevator trim loss caused plane to pitch up violently breaking the pilot's seat. This would explain why in come of the final pictures here is no pilot. He was laying in a position where he could no longer reach the controls.

Just a theory, but it seems to put the pieces together.
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Well .. maybe. I'm puzzled by the whole trim tab thing and why the
loss of that trim tab would cause so much pitch up, unless it was really
trimmed nose down in the first place. And from what you can see of it
in the pics .. the trim tab on the right side doesn't appear to be too much
off center so I'm assuming the left one wouldn't either. I'm not so sure the
loss of the trim tab wasn't the result of other aerodynamic forces from an
already begun sequence of events.

RT
 
Doggtyred said:
And now the news has hit home locally... Someone who was missing and unaccounted for has been positively identified as one of the fatalities. Craig Salerno, a volunteer with the Wings over Houston airshow, and a Lieutenant with Friendswood Volunteer Fire Department, was one of the fatalities.

I dont know him personally, but I know dozens of his colleagues on a first name basis, including one who's a reservist deployed in The 'Stan... The news just broke today.

http://galvestondailynews.com/story/259186/
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If I'm not mistaken, he was also one of the CAF Tora Tora Tora pilots.....I just got an email about him the other day.
 
Latest I've read is that telemetry shows that GG experienced a sudden 11 G, uncommanded pull-up.

Broken seat or not, Mr. Leeward would have been unconscious from that point until impact.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Latest I've read is that telemetry shows that GG experienced a sudden 11 G, uncommanded pull-up.

Broken seat or not, Mr. Leeward would have been unconscious from that point until impact.
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Agreed. At high rates of speed with that kind of energy, stuff can break. Fact of life. Stuff breaks at 500mph, somebody can get dead in a hurry. Another fact of life. Jimmy Leeward knew the risks. He wasn't a stupid inexperienced neophyte. Just luck that the thing didn't crash into the grandstands and kill a hundred.

Unfortunately, the risks to both pilot and spectator are greater in an air race because of the three dimensional nature of the beast. Like I said, I suspect this will be the end of air racing of this kind in this country. As a nation we seem to have become very risk averse.
 
Just luck that the thing didn't crash into the grandstands and kill a hundred.
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I am struck by the horribly bad luck that this happened where it did -- not that it could have been worse. The odds of that trim tab breaking off at that exact spot, that would result in spectator fatalities, on an 8 mile (or whatever it is) race course have to be billions to one.

And yet it happened.

Like I said, I suspect this will be the end of air racing of this kind in this country. As a nation we seem to have become very risk averse.
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I hope you are wrong. This isn't a "public safety" issue. No one in that audience was forced to be there, and none of the injured or dead were from the general public outside of the event. Every Reno Air Race ticket has a liability waiver on the back, and (in the real world) that should suffice to hold RARA harmless.

If only.
 
Jay Honeck said:
... Every Reno Air Race ticket has a liability waiver on the back, and (in the real world) that should suffice to hold RARA harmless.

....
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Let's assume that a few words on the back of a ticket are good enough to waive liability. If I were an insurer, I still would have some pretty significant reservations about providing coverage at even an obscene price.

It's also worth noting that liability waivers have turned into the "fine print" type of thing. Which is why they're not always effective. The law has generally gotten away from the concept of "magic words."

Additionally, you've got liability of the competitors.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Latest I've read is that telemetry shows that GG experienced a sudden 11 G, uncommanded pull-up.

Broken seat or not, Mr. Leeward would have been unconscious from that point until impact.
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There is an unconfirmed report that the telemetry data was as high as 22Gs!
 
Jay Honeck said:
Every Reno Air Race ticket has a liability waiver on the back, and (in the real world) that should suffice to hold RARA harmless.
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Not necessarily...when there is enough money involved, you'd be suprised at how well lawyers can get around liability waivers.
 
If lawyers practiced ethically they'd all be broke.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I am struck by the horribly bad luck that this happened where it did -- not that it could have been worse. The odds of that trim tab breaking off at that exact spot, that would result in spectator fatalities, on an 8 mile (or whatever it is) race course have to be billions to one.

And yet it happened.
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Never sit adjacent to an outside turn at a race. Stuff always breaks at the least opportune moment.

Jay Honeck said:
I hope you are wrong. This isn't a "public safety" issue. No one in that audience was forced to be there, and none of the injured or dead were from the general public outside of the event. Every Reno Air Race ticket has a liability waiver on the back, and (in the real world) that should suffice to hold RARA harmless.

If only.
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I hope I'm wrong too, but I've been around too damn wrong. Given the payouts that are going to be made, I find it hard to believe anyone would reinsure them. Folks had been flying the east river for going on a century. All it took was one crash for it to be shut down.
 
RogerT said:
Well .. maybe. I'm puzzled by the whole trim tab thing and why the
loss of that trim tab would cause so much pitch up, unless it was really
trimmed nose down in the first place. And from what you can see of it
in the pics .. the trim tab on the right side doesn't appear to be too much
off center so I'm assuming the left one wouldn't either. I'm not so sure the
loss of the trim tab wasn't the result of other aerodynamic forces from an
already begun sequence of events.

RT
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Back in 1998 I watched Bob Hannah piloting Voodoo lose the trim tab, and executed a sudden high-G zoom climb from race level to about 11,000'. I spoke with Bob the next day (along with about 10 or 12 other interested pilots) and he shared with us that he was racing along happily, with no knowledge of anything wrong at all, and suddenly "woke up" to find himself slumped in the seat with his head down by his knees and the airplane in a low-G noseover. He recovered the airplane around 9,000' and landed safely. He never had a clue what happened in flight, other than knowing he lost conciousness momentarily. Video showed the trim tab came off and caused a high-G pull in excess of 10 G's, the P-51's at race speed use quite a lot of nose-down trim and when it is suddenly lost the nose-up pitch can be very strong. It was discussed, but never decided, that flutter may have been the initial contributor to losing the trim tab.

One of the Voodoo crewmen shared that the G force was between 10 and 14 G's - they knew it was more than 10 because the G-meter in the cockpit was pegged at its 10G limit, and they calculated the wing would fail at 14, and it didn't fail. Bob immediately placed a For Sale sign on the airplane, he didn't want to fly it again.

Speculation currently (cockpit video will certainly assist the NTSB to find ACTUAL cause) is that Jimmy Leeward lost the trim tab and the seat structure failed under the G-load, leaving him unable to regain control even if he regained conciousness.
 
airguy said:
, the P-51's at race speed use quite a lot of nose-down trim and when it is suddenly lost the nose-up pitch can be very strong. It was discussed, but never decided, that flutter may have been the initial contributor to losing the trim tab.
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Well a considerable nose down trim at speed would sure explain that. I didn't
realize they ran that much.
 
steingar said:
Unfortunately, the risks to both pilot and spectator are greater in an air race because of the three dimensional nature of the beast. Like I said, I suspect this will be the end of air racing of this kind in this country. As a nation we seem to have become very risk averse.
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Racing in general ... 80 people were killed at a 24-Hours of Lemans once. Folks have been killed at NASCAR by flying cars and debris. Certainly some deaths in Rally racing...

I'd not make any comments on the math/statistics, but my feel is that air racing is a lot safer than auto racing, as a spectator.

Neither is probably as dangerous as getting in the car and driving to work every day.

You're right though... risk aversion -- to perceived and false risks -- is exactly what we're about these days, it seems.

Nevermind the banks and world's largest insurer being bailed out, massive debts both personal and systematic, people holding an average of $20K or more on credit cards, government holding trillions in debt...

Those aren't risks to soccer moms.

Airplanes crashing on willing spectators at an air show is what should be on the news. That scares the soccer moms. :no: :nono: :mad2:

Humans are awful at managing risk. We're great at rationalizing it away though.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I am struck by the horribly bad luck that this happened where it did -- not that it could have been worse. The odds of that trim tab breaking off at that exact spot, that would result in spectator fatalities, on an 8 mile (or whatever it is) race course have to be billions to one.
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I'm struck by the lack of a fireball, or at least the ignition of fuel on the ground. I read one account on the red boards that a man received schrapnel in the back, and was doused in fuel.

You're right, Jay. It could have been SO much worse.
 
nddons said:
I'm struck by the lack of a fireball, or at least the ignition of fuel on the ground. I read one account on the red boards that a man received schrapnel in the back, and was doused in fuel.
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There is a saying that P-51s don't explode. The P-51 that was lost at Duxford this summer didn't explode or burn either and it nosed in after the pilot bailed.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I am struck by the horribly bad luck that this happened where it did -- not that it could have been worse. The odds of that trim tab breaking off at that exact spot, that would result in spectator fatalities, on an 8 mile (or whatever it is) race course have to be billions to one.

And yet it happened.
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And here's the other side of the argument:

Dozens of aircraft have crashed at Reno over the years. I think the pilot fatalities are up to about 19, but that number is from memory. Lord knows there have been more accidents - off airport crashes without fatalities, etc.

This is the first accident that took out any spectators. You could argue that we've been lucky that none of the previous accidents hurt spectators.
 
kyleb said:
And here's the other side of the argument:

Dozens of aircraft have crashed at Reno over the years. I think the pilot fatalities are up to about 19, but that number is from memory. Lord knows there have been more accidents - off airport crashes without fatalities, etc.

This is the first accident that took out any spectators. You could argue that we've been lucky that none of the previous accidents hurt spectators.
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Gotta agree. The stands are a big target, and lots of aircraft have gone spectacularly out of control. Like I said, there is a risk that is fairly inherent to this activity, both or participants and spectators. Me, I'd happily take it to see those airplanes do those things. But like I said, I doubt I'll get the chance in the future.
 
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