Reno Air Races 2011.... Serious Crash

David, I must admit I laughed out loud at your online "contract" with Jay.

I've tried until I was blue in the face to explain that putting the same type of disclaimer on e-mail messages outbound at the mail servers of multiple companies, accomplishes absolutely nothing in the legal world... and precedent has been set many times over on that one, too... but middle managers and corporate lawyers (who obviously don't know what they're doing, when it comes to those stupid e-mail disclaimers) kept having the IT staff slap them on every outgoing message.

Annoying and stupid. And the company paid them a LOT more money than I to screw that one up...
 
I've tried until I was blue in the face to explain that putting the same type of disclaimer on e-mail messages outbound at the mail servers of multiple companies, accomplishes absolutely nothing in the legal world... and precedent has been set many times over on that one, too... but middle managers and corporate lawyers (who obviously don't know what they're doing, when it comes to those stupid e-mail disclaimers) kept having the IT staff slap them on every outgoing message.

You mean the disclaimer on my accountants email that nothing contained in the message is tax advice is bogus ????
 
You mean the disclaimer on my accountants email that nothing contained in the message is tax advice is bogus ????

Nah... maybe that one's legit. There's a lot of crappy accountants out there.

I'm thinking of the ones that say "If you received this e-mail in error, you must delete it." And... "This e-mail is confidential"... and all that rubbish.

You're transporting all e-mail (unless your company and my company have bothered to utilized public-key-encryption either person-to-person (best) or server-to-server (meh, mostly a waste of CPU cycles other than for "proof" that the message actually came from said server... in clear-text on untrusted networks anyway.

Retarded.
 
David, I must admit I laughed out loud at your online "contract" with Jay.

....

I aim to please! :rofl:

A basic premise of contracts: you've got to have a fair opportunity to read the thing before you enter into it.

If we didn't have that rule, I could mail you some books, with a letter inside the box saying, "if you open this box, you agree to purchase these books for $X," and then I could haul you into court and enforce it - and make you pay for it (if I included a fees provision in the contract, which I obviously would, because I am a bad person).

And that's the problem with these kind of "blanket" releases that are on the back of things like ski lift tickets. Nobody really has a fair opportunity to read them. It's not like you're standing at the ticket window discussing the terms of a liability waiver with the person in the booth. Instead, you find out about that liability waiver when you're on the lift heading up the hill, if at all - and by then, you've already done the deal.

But, if you've got a fair opportunity to understand what you're getting into, that's a completely different story. Keep in mind, that doesn't require that you actually understand what you're getting into, or what you're reading, or that you even read it. It just requires that you have the opportunity. Even then, there are certain instances where it won't be effective (for instance, a nondelegable duty imposed by statute, such as my duty to refrain from murdering you in cold blood - we, as society, are not going to let you waive that obligation on my part!), but as a general matter, these are an important tool for something like whitewater rafting companies.

And, there's always the doctrine of assumption of risk. Regardless of the existence of a contractual waiver, if you know that what you're getting into might get you hurt, you're deemed to have assumed that risk. There are some weird intersections with tort law (e.g., just because you realize that you might get hurt by helping me fix my roof doesn't mean that I don't have to do my best to keep you from getting hurt), but for something like attending an air race it could, depending on circumstances, be applicable.

Anyway, I think I mentioned it above: Colorado's got the Ski Safety Act, which has insulated the ski industry from stupid lawsuits, while also providing a pretty good degree of protection to the skiing public. I see no reason why that couldn't, or shouldn't, be adapted to air racing. And I think it would make everyone, except perhaps the most hypersensitive, happy.

I'm sure that the Reno Air Races are overall a good thing for both Reno and Nevada. If anyone feels strongly about it, it'd be worth making suggestions to the City Council, the Chamber of Commerce, the State Legislature, etc. The worst they can say is no.
 
It's not really a defense, it's more a sense of wonderment that anybody who has ostensibly been in both newspaper and hospitality industry for many years didn't already know this stuff. But since you obviously didn't know, you may now have a better understanding as to why others on this forum aren't nearly as exercised about this lawsuit as you appear to be.



So...your defense is that this stupidity has been allowed to go on for a long time?

That is a sorry state of affairs, I must say.
 
How can you validly enter into something if you don't know what is that you're entering into until after you've entered into it. When am I going to have an opportunity to read the back of the ski ticket that I've just paid for?



This is actually where we get into nerdy "law talk." I'll spare you. :)

You saw the same warnings before you bought the ticket. What's on the ticket is a reminder.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
 
"They bought a ticket. They knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash".
Got the sequence wrong.

First, they knew what they were getting into.
THEN, they bought a ticket anyway.

I like the idea of emulating the ski industry and setting standards, getting them codified, and then as long as those standards are met, no liability. Would be a good thing for air racing and airshows in general.

However, I cynically think that the personal injury lobby would fight against any attempt to do this at a national level.
 
"They bought a ticket. They knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash".

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Got the sequence wrong.

First, they knew what they were getting into.
THEN, they bought a ticket anyway.

I like the idea of emulating the ski industry and setting standards, getting them codified, and then as long as those standards are met, no liability. Would be a good thing for air racing and airshows in general.

However, I cynically think that the personal injury lobby would fight against any attempt to do this at a national level.


I used to race motocross and North Carolina had similar laws. Great for the sport. A good portion of race entry fees still goes to insurance... it would be much higher if we did not have laws limiting the liability of track owners and riders.
 
...
I like the idea of emulating the ski industry and setting standards, getting them codified, and then as long as those standards are met, no liability. Would be a good thing for air racing and airshows in general.

I think it would be worth following up on (either by the RARA, AOPA, the EAA, or whoever would be in the best position). Most people I enjoy a good air show/race; I know I'd hate to see them go away. I think this would be a reasonable way to protect the interests of everyone.

And I also don't think it would be difficult at all to come up with a concrete set of rules that, if abided by, immunize from liability. I don't have enough technical knowledge of either air races or air shows to really be able to contribute anything in that regard, though. Aside from being able to put it all into legal mumbo-jumbo, of course. Which I'd be perfectly willing to do as a side project if anyone's interested.

However, I cynically think that the personal injury lobby would fight against any attempt to do this at a national level.

Very possibly.

At the same time, this would be a pretty good way to score some political brownie points.
 
I think it would be worth following up on (either by the RARA, AOPA, the EAA, or whoever would be in the best position). Most people I enjoy a good air show/race; I know I'd hate to see them go away. I think this would be a reasonable way to protect the interests of everyone.

And I also don't think it would be difficult at all to come up with a concrete set of rules that, if abided by, immunize from liability. I don't have enough technical knowledge of either air races or air shows to really be able to contribute anything in that regard, though. Aside from being able to put it all into legal mumbo-jumbo, of course. Which I'd be perfectly willing to do as a side project if anyone's interested.



Very possibly.

At the same time, this would be a pretty good way to score some political brownie points.
I'd talk with RARA and ICAS for the air race and air shows respectively.
 
Dont forget that disclaimers are usually written in type that it even smaller than this.
 
Dont forget that disclaimers are usually written in type that it even smaller than this.

I tried to put my "contract" with Jay into type smaller than that, and then put it into my sig. line, but apparently I can't do anything >1,000 characters. :)
 
Assume for the moment there was a valid contract between the person who died and the race organizers.

That contract is not binding on any entity not a party to that contract. (Google "privity of contract.")

The family of the deceased was not a party to that contract is therefore not bound by the conditions of that contract.
 
Let's say I go to the Air Races. I assume the risk of attending, and even assume that the waiver on the back of the ticket is worth something. I'm killed at the event.

Now my daughter...she wasn't there, and even if she was, she lacks the legal capcacity to form a contract, being 8. She is deprived of her father. As she's entered into no contract waiving her rights to sue for negligence, why can't she, or her guardian ad lietem on her behalf, pursue a suit? This has nothing to do with my losses, but hers, both damages that she suffers from being deprived of a, allegedly, loving father, and her pain and suffering at having to deal with her father's death.

I missed this post when I posted about privity of contract; otherwise I wouldn't have bothered posting!
 
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