Removing engine gauges

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by GBSoren, Nov 11, 2018.

  1. GBSoren

    GBSoren Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Looking for opinions on removing all the old engine gauges. I'll include a picture of my current panel. I'm having an ei MVP50P installed, so it's a certified replacement for all my engine gauges. It's going in the lower portion of the center stack, I'll be taking out the Garmin 496. On the right panel I'm thinking about adding a Guardian Electronics Smart panel mount for my 12" ipad pro. It'll fit, but with no room for anything else on that side.

    So, with that I'd run the IFD100 app on my ipad mini on the yoke mount, and Garmin Pilot on the ipad pro. Opinions? Anybody using the Smart Panel mount for there ipad? 20180811_200027.jpg
     
  2. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas En-Route

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    If the MVP STC says the old gauges can go, they should go. If they're still installed, they have to be working (I think) and be maintained. And they're not very accurate. They take up space.

    I put an MVP in a 180 a year or so ago. Nice stuff. With all such systems, though, there are two problems: First, there are a LOT of electrical connections and many of them are in the engine compartment, some on the engine where heat and vibration make problems. EGT and CHT connectors are particularly vulnerable. Some oil pressure transducers are failure-prone. Second, all that information, especially EGT and CHT graphs, reveal just how inconsistent these old engines are, and it bothers the pilots something awful to see the six bars on the graph not all nice and even along the top. They think some cylinders are being lazy or something, which is partly true, and want it fixed, which is very, very difficult, considering the locations of those cylinders in the cooling flow, the vagaries of hot gases swirling out of exhaust ports and striking the thermocouples in weird ways, and so on. That same engine has been operating just fine for 40 or 50 years and now, with the new gadgets, there's a problem?? Sometimes there's just too much information.
     
  3. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    Remove them and fab a new panel for the right side. Paint or powder coat to match. Add fixtures or accommodations to put whatever you want in the space. Plan carefully so you only have to do it once! ;)
     
  4. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

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    It will be nice for your passenger, they won’t have to play solitaire on their iPhone anymore.
    You’ve got both iPads and gps in map mode, at least the 496 isn’t
    Might want to consider how much you interact with the iPad, if it’s going to be a problem leaning over to the right side.
    You can remove the gauges at the top of the left stack as well, I’m assuming MVP has fuel levels. And I would add a 2nd G5 to get HSI functionality.
     
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  5. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Too many screens.




    You wanted opinions.
     
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  6. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    Keep in mind I have no love of iPad in the cockpit. Let alone two.

    But, I would suggest you remove everything being replaced with your new primary EMS, and put a temporary holder up over there on the right side. Fly it and see if that thing is usable in that position before you invest in mounting for it.

    Nice 29kts tailwind by the way ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  7. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Anything on the right side will be awkward to reach over to, if inputs are required.
    So, if that ipad you mention is intended to be well off to the right and is more than just a 'look at' item, might consider that. Otherwise looks good; yup remove the old gauges unless you can think of a valid reason to have a backup for any of them.
     
  8. Lndwarrior

    Lndwarrior Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I just want to know what is this plane? Panel looks kinda cool.
     
  9. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    I would guess Tobago.
     
  10. GBSoren

    GBSoren Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It's a Trinidad. That was in the mountains, western Wyoming I'd guess. I'm at 11,500 so indicated air speed is only 122, true airspeed at that altitude would be just over 150, I'll true out at 154 at 9500 to 10,500. Lose a little higher than that because I can no longer maintain 65% power, which is what I always set in cruise. No real tailwinds there.

    I'll admit it's overkill on the ipads, but I really like using the IFD100 app with the Avidyne IFD440. I use Garmin Pilot for weather and traffic (and logbook). I have traffic on the IFD100 & 440 too, but like how it's displayed better on Garmin Pilot. ADS-b weather is not displayed on my IFD's, I'd have to have another wire ran from my GTX345 to the IFD440 to get weather displayed.

    I'd have to remover the 2nd VOR on the right too, I never use it other than when working on my IFR training. My next investment will be a G5 HSI, so I don't think I'd miss the 2nd VOR.
     
  11. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    Don't remove the #2 VOR. Instead move the A/P controller into the center stack while you rearrange that section, and put the #2 indicator into it's normal position in an "8 pack"
     
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  12. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

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    Don't worry about it. There are always going to be people who complain when they see anything more than a minimalistic cockpit setup. And you have an extra incentive since you can remote that IFD to one of them. It makes sense.

    There's some guy on YouTube who has a similar setup and the video comments constantly center on the multiple iPad thing. A bit tiring.

    I use two iPads also. It's a nice setup. Both have a specific function and the flow is very smooth. With a FlightStream 510 they all stay synced up with the GTN650. It's slick as snot, honestly. I use one of the iPads as a a (mostly) full time traffic display, and the other for everything else.

    I don't think I'd mount the iPad on the right side the way you described. It's tempting, because all of those engine instruments can/will go away anyway, but given it's such an interactive tool I think you'd find it annoying leaning over there and dealing with it all the time. I'd just leave the big iPad "floating."

    12" is pretty big to lay around the flight deck. I'd suggest the normal size, whatever it is these days, 9.7" or 10" or whatever.

    Save that space on the right for something you'll need down the road. But, it's your airplane, do what makes YOU happy.

    Just my .02.
     
  13. NordicDave

    NordicDave Line Up and Wait

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    Nice looking Socata panel. I like those planes a lot. Have you looked at the Socata TB users group? nice forum of Socata owners. https://www.socata.org
     
  14. GBSoren

    GBSoren Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks! Yes I'm a member of socata.com, great resourceful group.

    Ryan F makes a good point, the ipad is very interactive. That's really why i wanted the IFD100 on the yoke mount, and Garmin Pilot on the panal. I'm changing frequencies and changing things on the flight plan often on the IFD100, on Garmin Pilot I'm mainly looking at traffic and weather along my route. So I thought I could leave that up on the right side, and have the ipad mini for everything else.

    The last couple of flights I've played with using just the mini, switching between the IFD app and Garmin Pilot. That works too, but I think I prefer having both up all the time on separate ipads.

    As for a smaller ipad, I have a couple of them but I really like the larger ones, old eyes I guess, especially if I'd mount it on the right side. And the pro is my work ipad so it's nice to always have it along.

    Thanks for all the constructive comments!
     
  15. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I’d toss them, not really backup worthy on most GA planes, most pilots could limp the plane home to a airport if the thing decided to complete fail.
     
  16. k9medic

    k9medic Pre-Flight

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    I'm a gadget guy all the way but I stop short of putting anything other than an iphone on a mount in the aircraft. Perhaps it is the way that I learned but I don't want an ipad blocking my view of the DG or potentially falling off a mount and hitting something important.

    You mention not have an instrument rating yet. I would take the time to get that knocked out and see what you really need when flying in IMC. I can tell you from experience that having all of that extra data gets exhausting.

    As to your original question, I fly an aircraft that has the smart panel mount with an ipad pro mounted in it. We also have the G5. At first it was really neat to use but now we find ourselves turning it off and just flying with the G5.
     
  17. Dr. O

    Dr. O Pattern Altitude

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    Crashing is an analog event and some folks believe that an all digital panel will protect them (shrug)
    Now, I like my digital electronics as well as anyone - up to my ears in GPS stuff - planes, boats, tractors, combines, watch, astrophotography, you name it - but a bit of analog as back up will keep you from being found dead clutching an iPad right after the biggest solar flare of the past 15,000 years.
    This past weekend I did 20 minutes of old fashioned flying, under the hood with needle/ball, airspeed, altimeter, watch, and whisky compass. Discovered I have gotten rusty. (Vlad the Impaler in the right seat always finds your weak spot) Nothing bad but not as smooth as I used to be at holding altitude and bank in a turn while keeping track of the clock and remembering what the reciprocal heading is supposed to be. Going to hit it harder over the next few months (winter is perfect weather for getting some actual - funny thing, I feel safer in actual than under the hood )

    edit: Oh and I forgot (being honest here) he managed to get me on calculating the distance to the VOR by flying across radials. I know how but overloaded at that point with everything else going on. Some day Vlad, some day (grrrr)
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  18. bradg33

    bradg33 Cleared for Takeoff

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    No reason to keep them, IMHO. A failed engine gauge isn't going to cause an accident (and a working backup is unlikely to prevent an accident). Moreover, if those gauges have fluid lines running to them (rather than being fed by transducers), there's a really good reason to get rid of them.
     
  19. Briar Rabbit

    Briar Rabbit Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I was faced with the same decision process when we installed our 930. Got rid of the old fuel gauges, they were worthless compared to the 930. I kept the old Egt which is hooked into only the #3 cylinder and glad we did because when you are IFR there are times when you can’t spend the time to lean your engine with the more time consuming process of the electronic bar graph display. Being able to crank the mixture control so the gauge needle is at a familiar setting on the Egt is much quicker. Then fine tune the mixture later when things are not as busy. I also kept the tach mainly because the hour readout on the mechanical gauge (instead of an electronic hour meter) where the time accumulates at a slower rate when the engine is running at 2250 than 2500 for instance. To mount the IPad I put a RAM ball mount over the gauges on the right side of the panel and used a 6” extension to a RAM quick release mount for the IPad. This way I can turn it for different light reflection, can fine tune its position with the rest of the panel plus brings it a bit closer and does not affect the movement or feel of the controls, keeps it out of the passengers way and makes the IPad PRO very easy to remove at the end of the flight.
     
  20. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    "T"ing into lines to install an engine monitor in addition to factory installed analog instruments typically doesn't make economic, physical, or practical sense nor does it improve safety Imho.

    Doing a similar job on a 182 now, keeping the mechanical tach and manifold pressure gauge is pretty easy in this airplane it will look fine at the end. Everything else is replaced.