Region of reverse command

I'm going to have to agree with MRC01 that it's an ambiguous term. I don't believe the FAA invented it. In fact, it has been removed from the latest edition of the AFH except for the glossary.

It doesn't matter whether you go slower than Vy or faster than Vy, either way you get less climb. The elevator effect on climb is opposite above and below Vy; it's "reversed."

The regional of reverse command seems to be accepted by most people to be equivalent back side of the power curve. This occurs at minimum sink speed. The back side of the thrust required curve is best glide speed. Neither of these are Vy. I've never heard anyone else describe airspeeds less than Vy as the region of reverse command.
 
I wrote:


Then you wrote:



Per the FAA:
V Y is the airspeed for best rate of climb, which produces the greatest amount of altitude gain over the shortest period of time.

Sure sounds like peak vertical speed to me! Altitude gain per time is vertical speed, and the point where it's greatest is its peak.
Ok…that’s the definition of Vy. I thought we were talking about the region of reverse command. My bad.
 
I'm going to have to agree with MRC01 that it's an ambiguous term. I don't believe the FAA invented it. In fact, it has been removed from the latest edition of the AFH except for the glossary.
But it’s still in PHAK.
 
Neither answer is 100% correct. As I was taught in systems design: everything is deeply intertwingled.
 
The author presents a graph of vertical speed versus airspeed and calls that the "power curve". That is not even what the power curve refers to. She has a complete misunderstanding of the topic.

Vy occurs where the maximum delta exists between power available and power required, and will vary with the type of engine and propeller installed on the aircraft. The power curve refers to the power required curve only.
 
I am not a flight instructor, but in my opinion any flight instruction that teaches that pitch=altitude (in isolation without all the important qualifiers) is inculcating potentially lethal flight habits. Altitude (gain or loss) is defined by excess power (to maintain level flight), which depends on both the applied power and the angle of attack. It is certainly counterintuitive for new pilots to internalize the idea of increasing induced drag at higher AOAs eating into available power. No excess power, no altitude gain.

In a light single, the best, but not perfect, proxies for power is rpm (for fixed pitch prop) and for AOA is indicated airspeed. Pitch+power=performance. Every pilot should internalize this basic concept of flight by reading Wolfgang Langewiesche's Stick and Rudder. It will make even more sense when one starts training for instrument flight.
 
The author presents a graph of vertical speed versus airspeed and calls that the "power curve". That is not even what the power curve refers to. She has a complete misunderstanding of the topic.

Vy occurs where the maximum delta exists between power available and power required, and will vary with the type of engine and propeller installed on the aircraft. The power curve refers to the power required curve only.


Understood; I was providing an answer to your statement that you hadn't heard anyone reference the region of reverse command with respect to Vy. Now you have.

To my way of thinking, a "region of reverse command" can relate to any two regions where the flight controls behave in an opposite manner in each. In a power-off glide, for example, the elevator works in opposite directions to effect gliding distance depending upon whether you're above or below Vg. That has nothing to do with the power curve. If you're faster than Vg and pull up (slow down) you'll glide farther, but when you're slower than Vg you have to push down (speed up) to glide farther. The control is "reversed."
 
Frankly “region of reverse command” is a terrible way to describe any of the above, and is one reason why it’s so misunderstood. It’s a backward way to discuss the topic in my opinion. The elevator doesn’t make you go up and down. The elevator changes pitch.
 
Altitude (gain or loss) is defined by excess power (to maintain level flight),


When you're in level flight at max power, how do you climb? There is no "excess" power available; you can merely re-apportion the power you have. How do you that? Simple. You pull back on the yoke, which increases AoA, reduces airspeed, and increases vertical speed. All without increasing power.
 
When you're in level flight at max power, how do you climb? There is no "excess" power available; you can merely re-apportion the power you have. How do you that? Simple. You pull back on the yoke, which increases AoA, reduces airspeed, and increases vertical speed. All without increasing power.
Until it doesn’t.
 
Understood; I was providing an answer to your statement that you hadn't heard anyone reference the region of reverse command with respect to Vy. Now you have.

To my way of thinking, a "region of reverse command" can relate to any two regions where the flight controls behave in an opposite manner in each. In a power-off glide, for example, the elevator works in opposite directions to effect gliding distance depending upon whether you're above or below Vg. That has nothing to do with the power curve. If you're faster than Vg and pull up (slow down) you'll glide farther, but when you're slower than Vg you have to push down (speed up) to glide farther. The control is "reversed."
The 'control is reversed' only if you consider the control to be a controller for something it doesn't really explicitly control. The misapplication of "reversed command" in training is another of those oversimplifications that doesn't make sense when you have a better understanding of what really happens on the back side of the power required curve.

Nauga,
NEPIC
 
Frankly “region of reverse command” is a terrible way to describe any of the above, and is one reason why it’s so misunderstood. It’s a backward way to discuss the topic in my opinion.

Yes, I agree it's a confusing term.
 
To my way of thinking, a "region of reverse command" can relate to any two regions where the flight controls behave in an opposite manner in each. In a power-off glide, for example, the elevator works in opposite directions to effect gliding distance depending upon whether you're above or below Vg. That has nothing to do with the power curve. If you're faster than Vg and pull up (slow down) you'll glide farther, but when you're slower than Vg you have to push down (speed up) to glide farther. The control is "reversed."
So the definition changes depending on whatever you want it to mean? I'm going to have to agree with Maule on this one. Better to stick with a single definition as described by the FAA, rather than making up your own.
 
When you're in level flight at max power, how do you climb? There is no "excess" power available; you can merely re-apportion the power you have. How do you that? Simple. You pull back on the yoke, which increases AoA, reduces airspeed, and increases vertical speed. All without increasing power.
By increasing angle of attack and decelerating you have transitioned to a flight condition where you have excess power that can be used either to accelerate or climb.

Nauga,
and his two buckets
 
When you're in level flight at max power, how do you climb? There is no "excess" power available; you can merely re-apportion the power you have. How do you that? Simple. You pull back on the yoke, which increases AoA, reduces airspeed, and increases vertical speed. All without increasing power.
But you DID increase excess power by reducing the power required.
 
By increasing angle of attack and decelerating you have transitioned to a region where you have excess power that can be used either to accelerate or climb.

Nauga,
and his two buckets


Nope. There is no excess power. Throttle has been max the entire time. The power has been reallocated from airspeed to climbing.
 
But you DID increase excess power by reducing the power required.


How? What does "power required" mean in this sense? Some power is now being used for forward motion and some for upward motion. If you mean to say I've reduced the power required for level flight, I suppose that's true, but I no longer want level flight. I want to climb. So by increasing AoA at the same power setting, I've merely reallocated how I'm choosing to use that power.
 
Nope. There is no excess power. Throttle has been max the entire time. The power has been reallocated from airspeed to climbing.
That's not what excess power means. Excess power is equal to power available minus power required, and is dependent upon airspeed. It's not "power in excess of what I feel like using."
 
Excess power is equal to power available minus power required

Some power is required for forward motion, and some is required to climb. Total power remains the same.

I agree that when power is applied beyond that necessary for level flight, the "excess" will cause the plane to climb unless the AoA is decreased. Obvious, and second nature once you've learned to fly.
 
The term "excess power" necessarily refers to some baseline - excess of what?
I always thought that baseline was power required for straight & level flight at the given airspeed.
This is because excess power is often used to explain rate of climb and Vy.

So if you are in level cruise at, say, 120 knots, and you pull the stick back a tad to enter a climb, without changing the power setting, you slow down. If you hold the stick steady or trim off the pressure, after the airplane reaches equilibrium, it will be in a constant rate climb at a slower airspeed. That slower airspeed requires less power in level flight than when you were flying level at 120 kts, which created the "excess power" that is causing the climb.

PS you can quantify how much by knowing that airspeed in steady state level flight is proportional to power cubed. If you double the power, you go 26% faster (cube root of 2 is 1.26). If you want to go twice as fast, that requires 8x the power (2 cubed is 8). Slowing down from 120 kts to 110 kts is (110/120) = 92% as fast, which requires 77% of the power (.92^3 = .77).
 
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So by increasing AoA at the same power setting, I've merely reallocated how I'm choosing to use that power.
And you have reallocated it by decelerating to an airspeed where you have sufficient excess power to climb. "Power required" (ETA: at a particular flight condition) is defined as power required for 1g level flight (ETA: at that flight condition) as long as no other conditions are given for something like comparative performance charts. Excess power is power available beyond that. Most any applied aero or aircraft performance textbook will cover it, and while I haven't read it recently to convince myself it's correct, the Airplane Flying Handbook describes it in the chapter on energy management. Energy management, not coincidentally, is a better way to look at this than something as ambiguous and oversimplified as 'reversed command'.

Nauga,
and his doghouse plots
 
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is defined as
this is where we’re getting confused here…in today‘s society, there are no absolute definitions. Words mean what the person using them wants them to mean. We can’t be bound by rigid definitions. That would make people feel bad, and feeling bad is bad…unless bad means good.
 
Some power is required for forward motion, and some is required to climb. Total power remains the same.

I agree that when power is applied beyond that necessary for level flight, the "excess" will cause the plane to climb unless the AoA is decreased. Obvious, and second nature once you've learned to fly.

"Power required" refers to level flight, and is a function of total drag and airspeed. Maximum rate of climb occurs at the airspeed where power available minus power required is a maximum. You can't say some of the power required is for climb, that's using the same term two different ways and amounts to doubletalk (though you can probably Google and find an internet blogger with a mistaken view of the terminology like you did before). I suggest you consult the PHAK. You can also find more detail of this topic in Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators.
 
Hey flyers,

As per my name, I am 7 lessons into my PPL. I suppose I will be posting here a lot.

My question is regarding the region of reverse command and what it pertains to.

I understand that the roles reverse and that pitch is for altitude and power is for airspeed.

Is this only the case during low air speed? When getting set up for slow-flight or power-off stalls, I seem to take forever to get configured and I am fighting with the airspeed and altitude once those flaps come down.

Do I need to pitch for altitude and power for air speed when getting configured for slow flight and power-off stalls?

Secondly, does trim also hold altitude as well as airspeed?

When I change altitude, my airspeed also changes (for example, I find it difficult to maintain 74 knots when putting full power in to climb)

Please don’t laugh… thank you
By now it should be obvious that you are not the only one who is confused by this term. As you have read, there seems to be quite a range of interpretations. My hypothesis is that aerodynamics is difficult and unintuitive, and therefore the explanations provided in our pilot training materials are oversimplified. This, in turn, leaves a lot of room for misinterpretation, further oversimplification, and the imaginative formulation of alternative facts by individuals who never really understood the concept in the first place but find themselves compelled to explain it.

To have a truly useful grasp of this topic it is necessary to understand the following fundamental factors and how they relate (or, are interrelated) to each other: angle of attack; parasite drag; induced drag; airspeed; and power. With that in mind, please allow me to share my own personal oversimplific misunderstanding, which, I hope, will be competitive.

Straight to the point (and as simply as I can state it): Region of Reverse Command refers to a range of speeds in which more power is required to fly slower. That's it in a nutshell, but please indulge me as I fully embarrass myself with an attempt to delve deeper into this topic. Here’s where a diagram might be helpful.

The diagram below (representative of a small, swept-wing jet), shows the relationship between power required (thrust, or T) and speed. I chose this diagram because it’s realistic and includes plots for four drag configurations: clean; gear-extended; gear + approach flaps; and gear + full flaps. In order for the diagram to make sense, we have to understand that induced drag increases as speed decreases, and parasite drag increases as speed increases. Total drag is the sum of induced drag and parasite drag. At some speed, total drag is lowest (L/Dmax). L/Dmax has important significance beyond the scope of this discussion.

thrust.drag.jpg

Let’s first look at the bottom curve for the clean configuration. The lowest point along the curve, L/Dmax, occurs at approximately 240kts. At that speed, Total Drag (parasite + induced) is lowest, therefore the amount of thrust required (Tr) to maintain unaccelerated flight is the least (830 lbs). Moving to the right (faster) along the curve, we find that more thrust is required to fly at a faster speed, which is intuitive. But, counterintuitively, if we move to the left (slower) along the curve, we find that more thrust is required to fly slower than 240 knots. In fact, the same amount of thrust is required to fly at 160 kts as is required to fly at 390 kts. Because more power is required to fly slower than 240 kts, we can define the speed range between 240 kts and stall speed as the Region of Reverse Command (for this aircraft in the clean configuration).

The curves for configurations that include landing gear and flaps show that the same thrust—speed relationship exists regardless of configuration, but the speeds for L/Dmax are slower and the curves are significantly steeper. We can also note that, for all configurations, in the Region of Reverse Command the thrust required increases exponentially as airspeed decreases linearly. These are all factors that we should be acutely aware of, especially during the initial takeoff and final approach phases of flight when our airspeed is relatively low while the ground is relatively near, because at some point the power required to make the airplane do what we want may actually exceed the maximum power available from the engine. In such a situation, we may not have the option of decreasing pitch attitude to use gravity to help us accelerate (trading altitude for airspeed). If we get into a situation in which we are unable to accelerate or climb, unless the ground in front of us happens to be a suitable landing surface, the last few minutes of our flight may be featured in a YouTube video. You can experience and explore the Region of Reverse Command while practicing a maneuver called flight at minimum controllable airspeed, or slow flight, with your CFI.

With regard to your other questions, let me return you once again to the fundamental factors of aerodynamics: angle of attack/parasite drag/induced drag/airspeed/power. It's a topic that's beyond the scope of a forum thread, but thankfully there is a wealth of information available on the Internet (and some of that info is actually accurate). You can start with any of the commonly-used pilot training books and/or online courses, and then with a few mouse-clicks you can dive as deeply into the subject as your math skills will take you. It's a most peculiar rabbit hole, and if you happen to see Alice while you're down there please tell her that I want my Jefferson Airplane album back.

Lastly, it's great to hear that you're learning to fly. I hope you find it as enjoyable and rewarding as it has been for me, and I wish you the best.


-Edited for clarity, just in case anyone actually reads this post-
 
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Frankly “region of reverse command” is a terrible way to describe any of the above, and is one reason why it’s so misunderstood. It’s a backward way to discuss the topic in my opinion. The elevator doesn’t make you go up and down. The elevator changes pitch.
Lucky you, I don't have time to read all the posts so I'm sorry if somebody else said this. See Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators, Page 353. The there's more there than any pilot needs to know. The term's been around since at least 1960.
 
The elevator doesn’t make you go up and down. The elevator changes pitch.
That's why Langeweische used the term "flippers", to remove the notion that they "elevate" the plane"
Nope. There is no excess power. Throttle has been max the entire time. The power has been reallocated from airspeed to climbing.
Power equals thrust times airspeed. Pitch up, airspeed drops, required power drops with airspeed, now there's "excess", which produces climb.

It's even a simple equation. Excess power divided by aircraft weight equals rate of climb.
this is where we’re getting confused here…in today‘s society, there are no absolute definitions. Words mean what the person using them wants them to mean. We can’t be bound by rigid definitions. That would make people feel bad, and feeling bad is bad…unless bad means good.
A consistent definition of terminology is critical to engineering discussion. No snowflakes allowed.
 
When you're in level flight at max power, how do you climb? There is no "excess" power available; you can merely re-apportion the power you have. How do you that? Simple. You pull back on the yoke, which increases AoA, reduces airspeed, and increases vertical speed. All without increasing power.
Unless one's plane can violate the principles of conservation of energy, there is no gain in altitude unless the available power exceeds that required to maintain level flight. At cruise, the wing is at an attitude where much of the power available is used to overcome parasite drag. If you reduce parasite drag (and thus the power required to maintain level flight) by putting the wing in a higher L/D ratio attitude (which is slower than cruise speeds) then the excess power can be used to gain altitude. (You are not adding more power, you are merely reallocating power so that there is an excess to use.)

Consider that the same principle applies to level slow flight near the stall speed. In this case, much of the available power is used to overcome induced drag. If you want to climb, you need to create excess power by reducing induced drag. You would do this not by increasing AOA, but by reducing it.

The only case where you could not increase excess power available is if you were in a situation where the aircraft is already at or near the maximum L/D ratio in level flight at maximum available power (e.g. say at the service ceiling). In that case, there is no attitude change you can make to reduce drag to create excess power, since you are already at the most efficient wing attitude, and you are already at maximum power.
 
Frankly “region of reverse command” is a terrible way to describe any of the above, and is one reason why it’s so misunderstood. It’s a backward way to discuss the topic in my opinion. The elevator doesn’t make you go up and down. The elevator changes pitch.
So, at cruise you see you are 50 feet low, how to correct? Add power?

Probably not, you raise the nose a bit and climb back up.
 
So, at cruise you see you are 50 feet low, how to correct? Add power?

Probably not, you raise the nose a bit and climb back up.
If you're in a knife edge, you use the rudder to raise the nose.
 
So, at cruise you see you are 50 feet low, how to correct? Add power?

Probably not, you raise the nose a bit
…creating an upward acceleration and trading some airspeed for alititude, resulting in reduced airspeed, which reduces power required, resulting in excess power,
and climb back up.
, after which most of the process is reversed.

I probably missed several steps, but [shrug].
 
You'll descend more if you're in the region of reverse command.

That is the topic, isn't it?
EXACTLY.

And the other point is, you don't always use power to control altitude. For minor corrections you just pitch to climb or descend.
 
Seems like an awful lot of overthinking this. Fly the airplane, get it slow and see how long you can keep it in the air. You'll figure out what the whole "reverse" thing is about, it will be obvious, without a lot of words or laying around awake at night thinking about it..
 
I saw one of the Blue Angels get this wrong. It was for the USNA graduation. We were on a boat that was right along the flight path for the show passes. They were doing the high speed - slow speed pass.

Watching from directly behind, I see the low speed guy start to sink. Then the nose came up and the aircraft starting sinking faster. Then the burners lit. He was low enough the burners pushed a dent in the water.
 
I saw one of the Blue Angels get this wrong. It was for the USNA graduation. We were on a boat that was right along the flight path for the show passes. They were doing the high speed - slow speed pass.

Watching from directly behind, I see the low speed guy start to sink. Then the nose came up and the aircraft starting sinking faster. Then the burners lit. He was low enough the burners pushed a dent in the water.
But that can’t be…
For minor corrections you just pitch to climb or descend.
 
IN CRUISE FLIGHT. That is the whole point of this thread, when you are in the "region of reversed command" or "backside of the power curve" things work differently. In that area, raising the nose causes you to go down, not up.
 
I saw one of the Blue Angels get this wrong. It was for the USNA graduation. We were on a boat that was right along the flight path for the show passes. They were doing the high speed - slow speed pass.

Watching from directly behind, I see the low speed guy start to sink. Then the nose came up and the aircraft starting sinking faster. Then the burners lit. He was low enough the burners pushed a dent in the water.


Hmmm, did he get it wrong, or was he demonstrating the awesome utility of massive excess power?
 
IN CRUISE FLIGHT. That is the whole point of this thread, when you are in the "region of reversed command" or "backside of the power curve" things work differently. In that area, raising the nose causes you to go down, not up.
Seems like there’d be less confusion if the actual definition of region of reverse command was used.
 
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