Refurb an old plane or buy new? Opinions welcome!

Its awesome that the ruddervators are back in production. I would agree that other than the RV-10, none of those planes approach your goals, and as far as I know Vans hasn't announced a plan to sell the RV-10 new and finished under MOSAIC (and to do so, I think it would require a 4kt reduction in stall, but I haven't read the entire reg).

Based on those needs, I would say that upgrading the Bo is the best option. Any lost "investment" in the Bo would be eclipsed by the first 3 years of depreciation on the SR22T or a Diamond, in addition, nothing looks more like a GA airplane "should" than a V-Tail Bonanza.
 
Think it comes down to where a parachute fits in the equation. If it's a must, then the Cirrus. If that's out of the equation, you can pump a bunch of money into the Bo and still be well below the Cirrus in $$.
 
MarkH said:
What happens if you wait? There are 3 concerns I have with reading this:

1) There is some risk with upgrading a V tail Bo, ruddervator corrosion being the obvious risk. MOSAIC's impact on value of older certificated 4 seat planes being a less obvious risk.
…
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As mentioned; Bo rv skins problem has been solved to ABS’ satisfaction although I think that problem was not endemic to all V-tails.

As for the second part, too early to tell; what I can say for the 182 market is an acceptable bid on an equivalency basis is at least 10% lower than it was at the end of 26Q2. DAMHIK.

MarkH said:
…2) If you are considering retiring early, is the plane you have now the best plane for your retirement? ….
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Who knows, but OEM with CAPS/BRS is table stakes apparently, and those offerings are slim, even if we back off to generic terms.

MarkH said:
…3) The new airplane market could change radically in 2 years, ….
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It could, but realistically it won’t when it comes to an SR-22 equivalent. I say that not as an optimist, which I’d love to be, but as a realist. Both the RV-10 and the Sling TSI are closest to what he is looking for and those things ring up close to 300 AMUs before labor and liability.

Today’s most likely MOSAIC success stories are the EASA LSA offerings and there ain’t a giantkiller amongst them for the OPs stated desires.
 
TCABM said:
Today’s most likely MOSAIC success stories are the EASA LSA offerings and there ain’t a giantkiller amongst them for the OPs stated desires.
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That's my take on it. Pipstrel Panthera, maybe, but they've had a few years to release it here and haven't done so (AFAIK). Textron doesn't seem to be chomping at the bit to get it into the North American market.

Honestly, even the DA50 RG isn't a great fit, as it doesn't have the range I'd like and it won't fit in my current hangar space (44ft wing).

....back to the SR22 or the Bo....
 
StraightnLevel said:
The bias is my wife's bias towards something with BRS/CAPS. That ain't happening in the Bo, no matter how much I upgrade everything.
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I do think that we'll at least see autoland come down the GA piston retrofit market in a few years, and that takes care of the biggest risk that CAPS solves, which is you conking out with her on board.

I have a lot of thoughts in both directions on this one - My plane is still a baby in terms of the GA fleet at only 28 years old. I do feel like I have lower maintenance and better dispatch reliability than the 1970s and older birds. And I've seen some brand spanking new airplanes that were NOT good - We had two TBMs that we picked up new on the same day, and one of them was a massive squawkfest for the first couple years. If I had plopped down $4.5M of my own money on that one, I'd have been PI$$ED. The other one was great... Until a couple years later, when the "bad" one had had everything worked out and the "good" one ate some FOD not once but twice in the space of a few months and spent a lot of time grounded waiting for engine parts.

I am a fan of multiple-ownership scenarios, but I do think @StraightnLevel is going to have a difficult time finding partners for his particular use case.

At the end of the day, I think this is going to come down to running a whole lot of numbers, and then making them look like they favor what you want to do in your gut. ;)
 
WDD said:
So....

1) What's the wait list for a factory new SR22T?
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24 months as of today for a SR22. The local dealer convinced me that the turbo model doesn't make sense for my missions, and on reflection I think he's right.

2 years is a long time.....

I went up in a SR22 this morning, and I was truly not prepared for just how different it is from my old Bonanza. The avionics are a completely different world. Flying it is a technology exercise, not a stick-and-rudder challenge.

Note: My plane doesn't have an autopilot, so I have been hand-flying 100% of the time, VFR and IFR. The 430W is a perfectly serviceable nav unit, but the new stuff in the SR2x is a whole new can of worms. I would assume that any new plane will be similar, right?

I have come to the conclusion that Klapmeier was right- Cirrus is a lifestyle sales company more than it is an aviation manufacturer. They spend their efforts training the owners on how NOT to fly the planes, instead focusing on all of the automation and safety systems.
Nice planes, but I like flying the plane more than I like being flown around. That said, maintaining heading and altitude by hand for 4 hours isn't exactly thrilling.....and I guess that you don't have to use the automation for TO, approach and landing if you don't want to.

I'm also coming to the conclusion that the Vision Jet was not designed to push the performance capabilities of an entry-level turbine. It's designed to be the easiest turbine to sell to a low-time, well-heeled buyer.

Hmmm.....
 
You could always buy a used/ 5 year old Cirrus. You can still take the dealer Currus training, etc. What you save on depreciation will pay for the parachute repack, uber plane cleaning and waxing, etc.

Wait - are you now considering a Vision Jet?
 
StraightnLevel said:
I went up in a SR22 this morning, and I was truly not prepared for just how different it is from my old Bonanza. The avionics are a completely different world. Flying it is a technology exercise, not a stick-and-rudder challenge.

Note: My plane doesn't have an autopilot, so I have been hand-flying 100% of the time, VFR and IFR. The 430W is a perfectly serviceable nav unit, but the new stuff in the SR2x is a whole new can of worms. I would assume that any new plane will be similar, right?
Click to expand...

On the plus side, after all the hand-flying you've endured flying an autopilot-less Bo around IFR for years, you're more than prepared to disengage the SR22's automated ride every time it does something stupid and unexpected. Which will likely happen for a while...
 
WDD said:
Wait - are you now considering a Vision Jet?
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I doubt that the numbers could work, but a used one with a lease-back deal.....?

[It has the BRS, and all of the G2 and newer have the auto-land capability, so the wife would....








.....probably divorce me.]
 
StraightnLevel said:
What's the collective view of PoA on the relative wisdom of putting significant $$$ into an older-but-solidly-airworthy plane, vs. biting the bullet and trading up to a new airframe with a warranty, a panel full of state-of-the-art tech and 0-time everything?

Background: I'm pricing out the upgrades I would like to pursue with my J35 Bonanza. The plane flies great, does everything right, and has no significant squawks. However, it's an older plane and it's overdue for some cosmetic work and updating.

Initial cosmetics would be paint and interior, including adding shoulder harnessess. I'm guessing around $45K for this. Then it needs a new panel, including addition of a GFC500 autopilot. Get rid of the VOR and vacuum system, update the 430W to something more like a 750 TXi, a set of GI 275s including EIS, ADS-B in, etc. $$$? Still working my numbers, but it's clearly not going to be inexpensive. I'm guessing $75-100K (but I could be way off).

Engine (IO-470C) runs strong and uses very little oil....but it's closing in on 1700 SMOH (1 OH since new) and I fly well over 100 hours/year (mostly long-ish cross-country). Even if it's a solid lump today, it isn't going to last forever so I need to assume that there's a $75-100K bill that's going to come due sometime in the next few years. Maybe upgrade to a 520 or 550? AFTT is a bit below 5,000 hours, no real issues.

All-in, this project plane is going to be well into the 6-digit range on top of what I already have in it...but then I'd have a no-excuses, fully updated V-tail Bonanza built exactly as I want it. :thumbsup:

So, I've been starting the process and getting quotes to kick it off....

Then my wife mentions something about "It would be really cool if you had a plane with one of those parachutes...." :mad2:

Great. That's not permission, it's a directive.

So, that leaves me wondering about a Cirrus...or going into a group deal to purchase something even faster w/the CAPS and Autoland (Epic?). I'd like the extra speed, but with an engine upgrade the Bo would already be about as fast as any single-engine cross-country piston.

Restate the Q: What's the collective view of PoA on the relative wisdom of putting significant $$$ into an older-but-solidly-airworthy plane, vs. biting the bullet and trading up to a new airframe with a warranty, a panel full of state-of-the-art tech and 0-time everything?
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Your call, your money, your values.

It kind of comes down to the mission, your money, your time value.

I'd vote for selling your plane, buying similar that was newer and better equipped.
 
StraightnLevel said:
This thought had occurred to me, BUT:

SWMBO specifically called out the BRS as the rationale for purchase approval.

This, in turn, means that an upgraded plane that doesn't have BRS is specifically disallowed.
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Vision Jets are out there at 1.8M asking price. That gets you CAPS, 300Kts and jet reliability. I think 1M for an SR22 vs 1.8 for a jet is tough to ignore
 
For completeness, you could consider a CAPS equipped (and otherwise dolled up 182. YOu're giving up some speed over the Bo, but if it'sa 550 airplane, they still get moving. I mean, a new, loaded SR22T sounds AMAZING, but just trying to give you complete options.

In budget:
New SR22T (caps, speed, new) $1M?
Used SF50 (caps, speed, used) $1.8M
UPgraded 182 with CAPS (caps, 150kts, used) Airplane = $445k, adding BRS ~$30k This is actually your best choice economically. https://www.controller.com/listing/...03-cessna-182t-skylane-piston-single-aircraft
 
4RNB said:
Your call, your money, your values.

It kind of comes down to the mission, your money, your time value.

I'd vote for selling your plane, buying similar that was newer and better equipped.
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Well, unfortunately Textron just killed the line, so a new Bonanza isn’t in the cards. There aren’t any BRS options for any of the Bonanzas anyway, so that’s not really a viable option.
 
MIFlyer said:
For completeness, you could consider a CAPS equipped (and otherwise dolled up 182. YOu're giving up some speed over the Bo, but if it'sa 550 airplane, they still get moving. I mean, a new, loaded SR22T sounds AMAZING, but just trying to give you complete options.

In budget:
New SR22T (caps, speed, new) $1M?
Used SF50 (caps, speed, used) $1.8M
UPgraded 182 with CAPS (caps, 150kts, used) Airplane = $445k, adding BRS ~$30k This is actually your best choice economically. https://www.controller.com/listing/...03-cessna-182t-skylane-piston-single-aircraft
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GIven the regular flights between T41 and KETB (effectively Houston to Oshkosh), going slower than the Bo isn’t something that is in the cards. For shorter flights that would be a strong consideration, but the longer legs really push me to be looking for going faster, not slower.

I haven’t seen BRS on a P210……hmmm…….
 
StraightnLevel said:
GIven the regular flights between T41 and KETB (effectively Houston to Oshkosh), going slower than the Bo isn’t something that is in the cards. For shorter flights that would be a strong consideration, but the longer legs really push me to be looking for going faster, not slower.

I haven’t seen BRS on a P210……hmmm…….
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If you plan to fly these trips in winter IFR then some kind of ice protection would be mandatory for me.
 
bonefishpete said:
If you plan to fly these trips in winter IFR then some kind of ice protection would be mandatory for me.
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You’re not wrong, and that’s another challenge with the J35. This one doesn’t have boots, and I’m not sure how possible it is to retrofit them. In the end I’d rather avoid icing than depend on a de-icing system; Delta may be the best anti-icing approach available to me if I decide to keep the Bo.

Even with existing SR22s, a lot of them do not have TKS, much less FIKI.
 
MIFlyer said:
Vision Jets are out there at 1.8M asking price. That gets you CAPS, 300Kts and jet reliability. I think 1M for an SR22 vs 1.8 for a jet is tough to ignore
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Right. $1.8 M asking. What do they sell for after 6 months sitting?

A new SR22 with FIKI and A/C is going to be bouncing up against $1.1M. To get one without all the extra junk that i really don’t want or need requires ordering, because most people apparently hit the “easy button” and go with the GTS, which is overkill IMO.

So, what if I could find a SF-50 that HAS to be sold, and lowball an offer for $1.5M? Seems like that’s a better deal than $1.1 for a new SR22, especially if I could find a lease-back Part 135 deal to help defray the operating costs.

Hmmmm……







….but divorce is expensive……
 
StraightnLevel said:
Note: My plane doesn't have an autopilot, so I have been hand-flying 100% of the time, VFR and IFR. The 430W is a perfectly serviceable nav unit, but the new stuff in the SR2x is a whole new can of worms. I would assume that any new plane will be similar, right?
Click to expand...
Similar, maybe, though Cirrus definitely makes the heaviest, and arguably best, use of the technology.

StraightnLevel said:
That said, maintaining heading and altitude by hand for 4 hours isn't exactly thrilling...
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And it IS fatiguing. Wait 'til you get an autopilot, you'll arrive in much better shape. For that reason, IMO a 2-axis autopilot, even if it's altitude hold only, is a must for a cross-country airplane.

StraightnLevel said:
I'm also coming to the conclusion that the Vision Jet was not designed to push the performance capabilities of an entry-level turbine. It's designed to be the easiest turbine to sell to a low-time, well-heeled buyer.
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Absolutely. It has turboprop performance. It's not supposed to compete with other jets, it's just supposed to be a jet that a Cirrus buyer can buy and fly, and they did quite well with that design goal.

Rick A said:
On the plus side, after all the hand-flying you've endured flying an autopilot-less Bo around IFR for years, you're more than prepared to disengage the SR22's automated ride every time it does something stupid and unexpected. Which will likely happen for a while...
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Funny how the more you fly an airplane, the smarter the airplane gets. ;)
 
StraightnLevel said:
Well, unfortunately Textron just killed the line, so a new Bonanza isn’t in the cards. There aren’t any BRS options for any of the Bonanzas anyway, so that’s not really a viable option.
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Huh?
Not new, newer.

Sell your old hunk o junk and buy a newer pile of scrap, with newer engine, better gadgetry, paint, interior.
Cheaper than new, perhaps cheaper than upgrades, likely limited downtime.

If you must have BRS then upgrade of current not an option and you should have said so.
 
4RNB said:
If you must have BRS then upgrade of current not an option and you should have said so.
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Any replacement has to have BRS. Since SWMBO wants it, it would give me permission to buy a new plane. Otherwise, I would be upgrading the Bo (the original plan until she brought up the BRS). Trying to upgrade without adding BRS and some level of de-icing would be a non-starter.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Trying to upgrade without adding BRS and some level of de-icing would be a non-starter. And the name of the plane must start with a "C". Not a hard "C" as in "Cloud", but a soft "C" as is "Cirrus".
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FIFY

G

Thread 'Cirrus FIKI'

I'm looking at Cirrus transition training to get into a FIKI equipped SR22. While the 172 and 182's work great in most cases, having the FIKI capability would be helpful to increase my dispatch rate. I've run into several cases these last few months where I've had to divert, cancel plans or otherwise make adjustments to avoid going through a fairly thin layer.

One question I have right off the bat, is how careful does one need to be with the TKS system? I've read the reserve of TKS fluid can dry up quickly depending on how much it is needed. I'd like to get some real world feedback on...
 
StraightnLevel said:
Any replacement has to have BRS. Since SWMBO wants it, it would give me permission to buy a new plane. Otherwise, I would be upgrading the Bo (the original plan until she brought up the BRS). Trying to upgrade without adding BRS and some level of de-icing would be a non-starter.
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The way I think, your logic circuits thus dictate a new plane and this topic is a waste of time.
 
4RNB said:
The way I think, your logic circuits thus dictate a new plane and this topic is a waste of time.
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WDD said:
I think the question isn’t “new or used” for the OP, but rather “I want a new plane with a parachute, I’ll compare it to a used plane although I’m getting a new one”. :cool:
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The wife said "I want a plane with a parachute" which might have really been "Making small talk here, I think I read where some planes have parachutes?". The OP wants a Cirrus. Kind of like when the wife accidentally says "Do whatever you want". OP has to mentally go through the due diligence of pretending to weigh the options.

So we're helping a brother out here by helping him pretend to weigh options before he buys his Cirrus. "But honey, the esteemed and nationally renowned POA helped me weigh the options to pick the safest and most financially responsible option".
 
Put the new plane purchase price in a fund. Then use that money to charter. Something like a Tradewind PC12.
 
Cirrus makes the perfect his and hers choice this xmas. A-word captain excoworker of mine bought wife #3 a Cirrus and kept the six seater he stole half of from wife #2. For most modern people divorce is just a right of passage on their way to serial monogamy Shangri-La. I cast no stones, but I will feel free to make light of the carnage. :biggrin:
 
bonefishpete said:
Put the new plane purchase price in a fund. Then use that money to charter. Something like a Tradewind PC12.
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I actually looked into that option a few years ago. That's how I ended up getting my PPL and buying the Bo.

Honestly, have you looked at charter pricing lately? There is absolutely no way it makes sense vs. flying yourself for solo or 2-person flights.
 
WDD said:
The wife said "I want a plane with a parachute" which might have really been "Making small talk here, I think I read where some planes have parachutes?".
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Hmmm.....I can't accept that, or my entire premise evaporates.

1763941540451.gif

So we're helping a brother out here by helping him pretend to weigh options before he buys his Cirrus. "But honey, the esteemed and nationally renowned POA helped me weigh the options to pick the safest and most financially responsible option".
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SHHH....you weren't supposed to actually say it out loud!
 
StraightnLevel said:
I doubt that the numbers could work, but a used one with a lease-back deal.....?

[It has the BRS, and all of the G2 and newer have the auto-land capability, so the wife would....


.....probably divorce me.]
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Divorce is expensive because it's worth it. If you need permission to buy a plane that meets your mission, is within your budget, and would make you happy, get both.
 
Remember if you do a Cirrus it will forever be a cirrus. I just upgraded my avionics and essentially did what amounts to a phase D (over 100K) on the Seneca.

Spouse LIKES two…:)
 
WDD said:
What is “Phase D”?
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That is when you do everything to every system in one sitting. Hoses, tanks, canles, pulleys, trim structure, The FIKI stuff, etc etc.

An airplane never makes financial sense. So FLY what you WANT to fly…and we have since been to both coasts in the past 3 mos……
 
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