Reduce speed in an a hurry and not gain altitude

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by WannFly, Sep 6, 2019.

  1. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    what is the best trick to reduce speed in a hurry, say from 100 kts to 60 or so and not gain altitude?

    background, the other day I was going to KJKJ (Moorhead) and had a mooney up my arse, I tried to maintain as much forward speed as possible, eventually slowed down to 70 on final. end result, the mooney had to do a 360 on final for separation. I kinda felt bad since I personally don't like circling at low altitude on short final, so it made me think... if I had tried to go to 65 from 100 I would have gained some altitude, I did gain some when I tried to slow down in a hurry to 70.

    thoughts? something that I can practice at altitude so this doesn't happen to the faster plane following me.

    yah she could have slowed down earlier, but my question is what I could have done better
     
  2. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Is this a trick question? Reduce throttle and add flaps and/or gear or make a turn
     
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  3. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

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    Steep turn
     
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  4. kkoran

    kkoran Cleared for Takeoff

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    Why was the Mooney so close?
     
  5. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

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    After reading the rest of your question there is a better answer for the situation. He should have extended his down wind leg for spacing.

    In other scenarios someone flying a complex aircraft can go to fine pitch on the prop to help slow down, s turn, or any maneuver to puts G loading on the airplane.
     
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  6. Kansas Flyer

    Kansas Flyer Pre-takeoff checklist

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  7. MIFlyer

    MIFlyer Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    Correct, IMO

    1. Far out from the airport (5 miles out), maybe let him pass you?
    2. once in the pattern, you're being cool by keeping up the highest safe speed you can, but he is responsible for not running you over and should have extended downwind
    3. once you're ready to slow down, reduce power, ensure you're in the white arc, extend flaps and if needed slip. Not sure what you're flying but in a 172/182 I can slow down and go down pretty freakin' dramatically with a combo of these tactics
     
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  8. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

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    You limited to reduced power and increased drag if you intend to continue to the runway. The monkey is on the Mooney driver who has S-turns or a 360 in addition to the other stuff.

    But the key is to not pay too much attention to the Mooney’s problem and just land the plane.

    Generally speaking, a steep turn with some G is very effective but inappropriate on final.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
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  9. champ driver

    champ driver Line Up and Wait

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    For me, kick it sideways in a slip.
     
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  10. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Me Three.

    It's not like it's hard to push the rudder pedal to the floor...
     
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  11. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    Winner winner chicken dinner. Throw out everything you can to dirty it up (if you haven't already), pull the throttle back to the tail and slip it to the stops while holding the nose up. Something like an Archer should go from 100 to 65 in the blink of an eye doing it that way.
     
  12. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

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    Bill Watson has it right....do no let another pilot dictate your PIC actions....it is the responsibility of the overtaking aircraft to slow down (91.113(f))

    Bob Gardner
     
  13. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    In non-HP airplanes, you can pretty much just reduce power and hold your altitude and it’ll slow down pretty fast. Once airspeed goes into white arc, drop the flaps / gear etc. In slicker airframes it’s not quite as easy to slow down on a dime.

    I agree with the folks above though, kicking some rudder and entering a slip is probably the fastest way to lose airspeed.
     
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  14. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I think this is key. You have enough to do without trying to make up for the guy behind you.
     
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  15. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

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    Don't worry about the runway behind you, the air above you, the fuel that isn't in your tanks and the Mooney behind you!!
     
  16. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    1. Own a Piper;
    2. Chop the throttle and wait 10 seconds.
    If the plane doesn't start to fall out of the sky as the speed decays rapidly, go back to step 1 above as you must have done that one wrong.
     
  17. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Besides the usual throttle back, flaps and gear if ya got it, slip it. Foot to floor slip
     
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  18. TommyG

    TommyG Cleared for Takeoff

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    Not your problem if the money pilot can’t control his speed. You worry about flying your plane to the runway.
     
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  19. zaitcev

    zaitcev En-Route

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    In addition to what everyone is saying about the following aircraft being responsible for its own speed, there's absolutely no need to feel sorry for a Mooney. A Mooney flies great when slow, and there's no problem slowing it down either. There is one exception that I found for my M20E: if the airplane is (already) descending, it's very much unwilling to slow down. This may put me in a position where no matter how I chop the throttle, I'm unable to reach the Vfe and dirty the airplane. The only exit is to give up the descent at that point. Once flying level, slowing down is no problem. If the airplane is dirtied before descent, it can be kept under Vfe with just the power settings. Any Mooney driver knows all this and can do what's necessary in order to keep the spacing. You aren't causing anyone to stall and crash behind you.
     
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  20. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Perform a quick stop. Little more difficult in a Cherokee vs a Chinook though.

     
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  21. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Reduce thrust to flight idle, deploy speed brakes, maintain altitude.

    Easy.
     
  22. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Meet the Fokkers
    Simple....

    Just firmly say Whoa girl.

    Kate loves when you take charge.
     
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  23. david.h

    david.h Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I fly an Archer, work at Mooney. Mooney pilot should have known better.

    Tip: Don't fly fast planes, they will spoil you quickly.
     
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  24. Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

    Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

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    Did you fly a normal sized pattern? No carrier pattern? Assuming yes, you do you, the Mooney does the Mooney.

    When I used to get ATC on United flights I heard those folks say a few times I can descend or slow. Which do you want first.
     
  25. david.h

    david.h Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Descend? Thicker air down low easier to slow down. That's my guess-no heavy iron experience. I'm not paying for the gas.
     
  26. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    S-turns will dissipate a lot of energy. So will slips. Both should be in your arsenal as things you are competent doing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
  27. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Cleared for Takeoff

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    I guess I'm the only one who doesn't understand your post. You have a plane up your ass and YOU (not the Mooney) wants to slow down quick?? Just hit the brakes and he'll fly right by.
     
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  28. RingLaserGyroSandwich

    RingLaserGyroSandwich Pre-Flight

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    I believe the idea was to keep speed up knowing the slow-ish pilot could slow down real quick at the last moment using the techniques discussed in this thread. That way, the Mooney wouldn't be gaining for most of the pattern. I don't think it's the right way to approach the situation, but hopefully that clears up the question.

    I fly my patterns the way I was trained. I don't suddenly try to screw with my speed because of traffic behind me.
     
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  29. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Thanks everyone, I was already on a 3 degree glide path , so didn’t think about using forward slip, in hindsight that could have helped. S turns or turns was out of question since I was already on very short final. And yes, my focus was on landing, all the thinking was after I exited the runway.
     
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  30. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 En-Route PoA Supporter

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    One more option...
    Pull back till you almost smell fumes. ;)
     
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  31. Huckster79

    Huckster79 Line Up and Wait

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    Nothing wrong with being a polite pilot but not to the point it affects the safety of your ship.

    The ability to know how to come in hot and then slow her down fast is a great one, practice it now if you’d Like but if you aret proficient at doing it and It’s not second nature yet, his plane is his worry about his separation behind you...fly safe my friend...
     
  32. IK04

    IK04 Cleared for Takeoff

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    I can vouch for that. Saved my life several times!
     
  33. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    Very short final, too close for S turns and still way too fast? Did you ever think about going around?
     
  34. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I’ve dealt with this in the skycatcher with a twin otter barreling down behind me on final. I added power to keep my speed up and landed long (closer to my turnoff). Was fast and high over the numbers, at the last moment, I put it into an aggressive forward slip to slow down and drop, plopped down on the runway a couple hundred feet from my turnoff, and barely had to brake. I had to hold the slip even after the flare to keep slowing down enough. Looked back once I cleared to see the otter wiz past on the runway. Timed perfectly. I told the otter pilot my plans and it all worked out. He likely would have done a 360 if I hadn’t told him i would keep up the speed and land long.
     
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  35. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I agree. But will add that if you don’t learn this skill, you may be circling quite awhile to get into an airport with a lot of faster traffic.
     
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  36. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm with those who don't feel the need to change my approach to landing at a nontowered airport because of some guy behind me flying faster than necessary just because he can.

    "Keep your speed up" from a Tower is a different scenario.
     
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  37. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    I had 5k feet to land, just that couldn’t make the first turnout
     
  38. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Cleared for Takeoff

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    Disagree. Most GA aircraft are only minimally affected by slipping. If the point is to reduce your pattern exposure and clear the runway quickly, rather than flying a 3 degree fast approach and then doing some last minute slipping nonsense, you'd be much better off getting comfortable flying a normal power off 180, or at least a power off final approach and using slips not to try to scrub speed, but to put the plane down precisely where you want. No need for any histrionics.
     
  39. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I don’t think we disagree. You can’t do a power off 180 when you are already on final. You can’t pull power and fly a normal approach when the turnoff is halfway down a 5000 foot runway and you were aiming at the numbers.

    I don’t think we disagree because your suggestions are all good tools in the toolbox, and there are times when they are the right solution, but they don’t work on every situation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
  40. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    Not a single person said it... y’all are slippin’...

    (Literally?)

    “I’m gonna hit the brakes and he’ll fly right by...”

    Oh come on. You know it had to be said! ;)
     
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