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Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
An A&P sends a crank into a reputable Aviation machine shop (CRS) to have it IRANed. The CRS condemns it for an inspection that is not called for in the overhaul manual. Is it legal to use that crank? (or any part that has been condemned for an inspection not called for in the manufacturers manuals).

I simply can't find a reference that says, yes or no.

If there is one show the reference.
 
Norman said:
You're being pretty vague. Wanna provide some details?
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In the 0-200/0-300 overhaul manual the only crank inspection is a magnaflux crack inspection. If the crank is red tagged for any thing else, can you use it?
 
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IMHO...

If a CRS red tags it, the burden of proof now lies our your shoulders to prove it is ok...

Good luck overcoming that.......:rolleyes:
 
Tom-D said:
In the 0-200/0-300 overhaul manual the only crank inspection is a magnaflux crack inspection. If the crank is red tagged for any thing else, can you use it?
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Hmmmm..

No run out inspection ?

Or undersize inspection ?

Or pitting /fretting inspection ?
 
I wouldn't,now that your on record as knowing ,it doesn't meet standards.
 
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Sounds to me like dancing around a corrosion issue.


In any event if you feel they are being too conservative then send it to another repair station or contact an OEM tech rep.
 
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bnt83 said:
Sounds to me like dancing around a corrosion issue. If you feel they are being too conservative then send it to another repair station or contact an OEM tech rep.
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I am not sure another CRS can remove a previously issued RED tag...
 
bnt83 said:
Sounds to me like dancing around a corrosion issue. If you feel they are being too conservative then send it to another repair station or contact an OEM tech rep.
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supposed it wasn't a crank? let's use a different part, If the CRS condemned a helo blade for having the wrong color, what then?
 
what if,, you sent in a gear to be magna fluxed and the CRS used ultrasound inspection method and found a defect that has run OK for 3500 hours. and sent it back with a red tag.
 
N801BH said:
I am not sure another CRS can remove a previously issued RED tag...
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An owner holds a cessna 182RG landing gear pivot, red tagged for cracking that was not repairable at the time. A different shop sees an opportunity to capitalize on the expensive parts and develops an gets an FAA approved repair scheme for the cracking issue, you are saying they are not repairable because the first shop issued a red tag instead of a green one?
 
I guess that the question becomes who declares airworthiness, the CRS or the installer?
 
Tom-D said:
what if,, you sent in a gear to be magna fluxed and the CRS used ultrasound inspection method and found a defect that has run OK for 3500 hours. and sent it back with a red tag.
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We are saying the NDT tech, which is a practice in its own right, is infallible.

Don't like the result, get a second opinion.
 
bnt83 said:
An owner holds a cessna 182RG landing gear pivot, red tagged for cracking that was not repairable at the time. A different shop sees an opportunity to capitalize on the expensive parts and develops an gets an FAA approved repair scheme for the cracking issue, you are saying they are not repairable because the first shop issued a red tag instead of a green one?
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I am saying (most) CRS's will not get into a pizzing match with another CRS over a lonely A&P questioning their RED tag...

The Cessna gear scenerio is different, but you can bet your ass Cessna will fight the CRS's "scheme" to fix a crack... IMHO..
 
bnt83 said:
An owner holds a cessna 182RG landing gear pivot, red tagged for cracking that was not repairable at the time. A different shop sees an opportunity to capitalize on the expensive parts and develops an gets an FAA approved repair scheme for the cracking issue, you are saying they are not repairable because the first shop issued a red tag instead of a green one?
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Thoes who developed the repair procedure will be issued a STC when approved. Superior holds many of this type of STC.
 
just send it in to a second shop....for a second opinion.

After all....it was working just fine prior to dis-assembly. :D
 
N801BH said:
I am saying (most) CRS's will not get into a pizzing match with another CRS over a lonely A&P questioning their RED tag...

How would they know it was previously red tagged?

The Cessna gear scenerio is different, but you can bet your ass Cessna will fight the CRS's "scheme" to fix a crack... IMHO..
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they may fight it, but they can't stop, nor do they have control of the STC procedure.
 
bnt83 said:
Never seen an STC for a repair.
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look up the superior STC to cut the 0-200/0-300 crank below .010. they can salvage cranks by STC to cut to .020.
that is a repair procedure.
 
Tom-D said:
look up the superior STC to cut the 0-200/0-300 crank below .010. they can salvage cranks by STC to cut to .020.
that is a repair procedure.
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Sounds like an alteration to me
 
bnt83 said:
Sounds like an alteration to me
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if you think so. call superior. the M20 bearing set comes with the STC paper work. as does the crank when they cut it.
 
Ultrasonic inspection of the crankshaft may be part of the repair station's RSGOM.
 
bnt83 said:
Ultrasonic inspection of the crankshaft may be part of the repair station's RSGOM.
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And when they find flaws beyond what the Ovhl/Manual requires , What then?

Can the A&P make a decision to use the part? Is that legal?

There are many 0-300 crank shafts that have been running for decades with flaws that a magna flux will not see, but an ultra sound will. is that criteria to condemn?
 
This is as close to my answer that I can find.
FAR 43.13 Performance rules (general).
(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as noted in §43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance with accepted industry practices. If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.
......
those will be the instruction for maintenance which the CRS uses. BUT, do they take precedence over the overhaul manuals. ?
 
Maybe an X-ray could disprove the ultrasound indication?
 
I've been apart of a lower wing attach fitting on a Bo that showed cracked via eddy current. You could see it too. Since it was toast we started polishing the area with cratex wheel for kicks and the crack disappeared. Eddy current confirmed the crack free surface and we submitted all measurements and pictures of it for repair disposition. It's still flying.
 
I wouldn't use it without someone saying its good, preferably continental themselves.
 
what data is this shop required to report?....will that make you liable if you choose to return it to service?....with or without the red tag?

me thinks....regardless of the color of the tag you assume liability for returning it to service.

Get a second opinion....and be done with it. :mad2:
 
Tom-D said:
what if,, you sent in a gear to be magna fluxed and the CRS used ultrasound inspection method and found a defect that has run OK for 3500 hours. and sent it back with a red tag.
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I wouldn't use it Tom. If the shop uses a different test than the one prescribed and they find defects resulting in a red tag, I don't believe it really matters how they tested as long as it is an accepted procedure. If you want an official opinion then the manufacturer would be the source in my opinion. If I was the owner I would not want the part in my engine.
 
It's a sticky situation for the CRS. If I was running one and needed to keep ultrasonic inspection equipment for certain affected critical parts I'd be interested what other non effected critical pats showed on the machine too.
 
timwinters said:
So, why was it red tagged? Did I miss it?
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No, it's a part of the bait.

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People,, understand this does not need to be an engine part. Any repairable part that is sent to a CRS to be repaired, can be red tagged because of using test procedure higher than required by the original manufacturer.
I'm not asking for common sense usage answers, just is it legal to use it after that happens.

Is there any thing in writing that says that red tag is final?
 
Tom-D said:
People,, understand this does not need to be an engine part. Any repairable part that is sent to a CRS to be repaired, can be red tagged because of using test procedure higher than required by the original manufacturer.
I'm not asking for common sense usage answers, just is it legal to use it after that happens.

Is there any thing in writing that says that red tag is final?
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I don't know and I have never bothered finding out. Even it it was legal I still wouldn't install it and if a customer had an issue with my decision they could find services somewhere else.
 
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