Recurrent Training and FlightReviews

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Fearless Tower, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Looking for someone smarter than me to clarify this.

    I'm due for both my flight review and SIC recurrent training in the Citation in April.

    Question is, is it possible to use the recurrent training to meet both requirements? Because my recurrent training is for SIC, I'm not sure it meets the FR requirement, but curious what others think.
     
  2. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Are you rated as PIC in the Citation? Is the sim instructor a CFI rated in the Citation? It's a proficiency check but I'm not sure if it would be legal unless you're checked as PIC, and have the type rating. At the airline I didn't need a FR as every 6 months we had a proficiency check, but I was typed in the aircraft.

    It may be legal to sign off an IPC too if you perform the requirements for an IPC. Again, I'm not sure if you're rated as SIC only if it could be applicable. Have you inquired at the sim center? They may know the answer. Sorry I couldn't help ya.

    References
    Selected portions of 14
    CFR § 61.56
    (a) A flight review consists of a minimum of 1 hour of
    flight training and 1 hour of ground training. The review
    must include:
    (1)
    A review of the current general operating and flight
    rules of part 91 of this chapter; and
    (2) A review of those
    maneuvers and procedures that, at
    the discretion of the person giving the review, are
    necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise
    of the privileges of the pilot certificate.
    (c) Except as provided in paragraphs (d), (e), and (g) of this
    secti
    on, no person may act as pilot in command of an
    aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar
    month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in
    command, that person has

    (1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft
    for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor
    and
    (2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized instructor
    who gave the review certifying that the person has
    satisfactorily completed the review.
    (d) A person who has, within the period specified in
    paragraph
    (c) of this section, passed any of the following
    need not accomplish the flight review required by this
    section:
    (1) A
    pilot proficiency check or practical test conducted
    by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a
    U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or
    operating privilege.

    (2) A practical test conducted by an examiner for the
    issuance of a flight instructor certificate, an additional
    rating on a flight instructor certificate, renewal of a
    flight instructor certificate, or reinstatem
    ent of a flight
    instructor certificate.
    (e) A person who has, within the period specified in
    paragraph (c) of this section, satisfactorily accomplished
    one or more phases of an FAA
    -sponsored pilot proficiency
    award program need not accomplish the flight re
    view
    required by this section.
     
  3. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Same here, 135 PIC, no FR or anything needed, not sure about the SIC though, Id guess you would be exempt from the FR though
     
  4. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    No, I'm only rated SIC, which is why I suspect it won't meet the requirement, but I'll ask the sim center.
     
  5. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The part I highlighted in red addresses a "proficiency check", but doesn't clarify that it has to be PIC or not. But then at the beginning it uses PIC, so I'd call the FSDO, sim center, or a DPE may even know.
     
  6. champ driver

    champ driver Line Up and Wait

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    I'm not sure about the SIC part of it too. Call the Sim center before you go and talk to the training director.
     
  7. Anymouse

    Anymouse En-Route

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    Granted, I'm a PIC, but CAE issues me a little plastic card after my annual training in the King Air that is essentially my IPC/FR.
     
  8. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    The tail end of what mscard posted says operating privilege which I assume that means it counts as a FR.
     
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  9. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    It's actually a very interesting question. Here's what the FAA has said, and it's not directly on point.

    The SIC type rating is primarily a paper rating to meet ICAO requirements and the FAA,when asked, has said it is not treated as being "rated" for other purposes such as logging PIC time as the sole manipulator. See the 2012 Counsil interpretation ("SIC Privileges Only" limitation is not a "rating" for the purpose of logging flight time). You can see the same philosophy at work in the 2012 Littleton Interpretation (kind of the reverse; can't use an IPC in an aircraft with SIC privileges only to satisfy the Part 135 PIC competency check)

    If that same idea applies, then you may be stuck with not being able to meet the requirement that a FR be in an aircraft you are rated for or it being an applicable "proficiency check" for FR purposes.

    Edit: wow, a major missing "not".
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
  10. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Cleared for Takeoff

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    interesting question. part 1. a fr requires 1 hr of ground and 1 hr of flight instruction. that is met during a sic recurrent as long as the training facility is authorized to give sic recurrent.
    part 2 is the questionable part. IN AN AIRCRAFT IN WHICH YOU ARE RATED. you are sic rated, its right there on your certificate. the question is does the FAA consider you rated with a sic rating? i have no idea what their ruling on that would be.

    bob
     
  11. Bobcat1

    Bobcat1 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Back before the SIC deal came out, most FO's weren't typed in what they were flying. They were able to take care of the FR at recurrent as the ride would be a proficiency check required as a condition of an operating privilege. It doesn't specify PIC, or SIC or typed or not.

    The whole point of 61.56 was to make sure that the GA population would see some sort of recurrent training. The red lettered sections cited above were included because those pilots in either seat at a 135 or 121 carrier were already subject to recurrent training at the time of the regulation. Your recurrent can be legally considered in lieu of a FR.
     
  12. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    This actually wouldn't apply...he's not going to training to get a flight review. He's doing recurrent training in the Citation as an SIC. If it's Part 135 training, that means he's taking a checkride for an "operating privilege", and that means he's good under 61.56(d) and doesn't need a flight review.

    If he's taking the training for Part 91 privileges, there's no check ride involved, so the flight review would still be required.

    On the Part 91 side, even if the instructor has appropriate privileges on a Flight Instructor certificate, he still couldn't sign off a flight review, because as Mark noted, an SIC Type isn't considered being "rated". It's obtained by simply receiving training and doing paperwork. There's no check ride involved.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2017
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  13. Bobcat1

    Bobcat1 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Sure you meet the requirement. The aircraft is certificated for a minimum crew of two. As a required flight crewmemeber you're taking a proficiency check for an operating privilege. You don't need a FR. your PC counts as one.
     
  14. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Just to clarify...he's only taking a proficiency check if he's doing the recurrent under Part 135. If he's part 91, there's no checking, only training, which doesn't qualify as a flight review substitute.
     
  15. Bobcat1

    Bobcat1 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    True.
    Even a quick perusal of 61.58 wouldn't get him any relief, as that would only apply for PIC. If he's 91 Then it would appear that a FR would be necessary. Kinda silly when you consider the fact that these kind of training events are far more involved than your typical Flight Review.
     
  16. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    True. And if you are a private pilot ASEL, it might be a far more involved training event to do your flight review in a twin or glider or balloon. But for some reason, the FAA thinks the only recurrent training you are required to do, only once every two years, be done in a category/class you are actually licensed to fly.
     
  17. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Unfortunately, many of the regs are "one size fits all". It's tough to write rules that apply to both the private pilot that flys 15 hours a year and the pro that flys a 1000 hours a year.
     
  18. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    But they try. Compare the minimum proficiency check requirements for the 1000 hour per year pro (see generally FAR 135.293 and 135.297) with the (maybe) once every two years of that 15 hour private pilot.
     
  19. Pacman45

    Pacman45 Filing Flight Plan

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    Here's another Flight Review issue: Then new small UAS Rule Part 107 for drone pilots spells out that airman who are already certificated under part 61 can get their UAS certificate by taking an online course and filling out an application IF they've had a flight review in the preceeding 24 months. Since many of us don't require flight reviews by virtue of the fact we get 61.58 recurrent training, are we able to qualify for this short path to the UAS certificate?
     
  20. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    The actual language is "meets the flight review requirements specified in Sec. 61.56." Your 61.58 proficiency check, like a checkride for a new certificate or rating, meets the requirements of 61.56 according to the reg.