Reality check, right-of-way in actual conditions

[LongRoadBob]

I'm studying more for the "Air Law" section of the exam.

I'm in Europe (Norway, which is using SERA and ICAO) and have been a trying to understand the specifics of right-of-way. I mean, the text is clear enough as far as it goes.

I get that "at about the same altitude" (paraphrasing) an aircraft from your right has the right of way and you are then to fly behind it, at least not under, over, or continue in your flight path.
You are to fly towards behind the aircraft on your right to avoid chance of collision.

How far away or how close before these actions should be taken?

I'm thinking if I see a plane coming up on my right side, just the fact that I can SEE it, how far away would it be on say a clear day? And then, I think if the other aircraft is a ways away, I don't know his plans, if he may be thinking of banking left (in which case if I start banking to get behind him AS IF he had continued on his path) and does it, as I am trying to get behind, I am now becoming the plane on the right.

I'm thinking too much about this, or too obsessively, right?

I just imagine that not yet being used to speeds we fly at, I imagine by the time I see the other plane there is not that much time to decide, and since we aren't stuck to keeping to a "road" or anything, he could do anything at that point? Could have not seen me, intend to bank one way or the other, etc.

How does this actually work?

 

[Dr. O]

Being it is Europe I have not a clue
See and be seen has worked since Orville and Wilbur, here
In Europe? (shrug)
Ask your CFI

 

[Salty]

I'm studying more for the "Air Law" section of the exam.

I'm in Europe (Norway, which is using SERA and ICAO) and have been a trying to understand the specifics of right-of-way. I mean, the text is clear enough as far as it goes.

I get that "at about the same altitude" (paraphrasing) an aircraft from your right has the right of way and you are then to fly behind it, at least not under, over, or continue in your flight path.
You are to fly towards behind the aircraft on your right to avoid chance of collision.

How far away or how close before these actions should be taken?

I'm thinking if I see a plane coming up on my right side, just the fact that I can SEE it, how far away would it be on say a clear day? And then, I think if the other aircraft is a ways away, I don't know his plans, if he may be thinking of banking left (in which case if I start banking to get behind him AS IF he had continued on his path) and does it, as I am trying to get behind, I am now becoming the plane on the right.

I'm thinking too much about this, or too obsessively, right?

I just imagine that not yet being used to speeds we fly at, I imagine by the time I see the other plane there is not that much time to decide, and since we aren't stuck to keeping to a "road" or anything, he could do anything at that point? Could have not seen me, intend to bank one way or the other, etc.

How does this actually work?

Generally speaking, if everyone banks to the right you're in better shape, unless you're moving in the same general direction as one another (one plane overtaking another). Right? (Pun intended) in reality you have to watch closely and do what you have to to avoid.

 

[mscard88]

Use your discretion of when to turn, descend, climb, whatever you think you need to do. As long as you take action in a timely manner and do not cause a conflict you should be good to go.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Actual? As in actual imc?
ATC says you are in the right, so you go on your way.
(excepting an RA that is)

 

[LongRoadBob]

Being it is Europe I have not a clue
See and be seen has worked since Orville and Wilbur, here
In Europe? (shrug)
Ask your CFI

Thanks but I was asking, isn't it the same in the US? Two planes heading toward each other, both go to the right.
On overtaking a plane stay to the right of the plane you are overtaking.
On a cross, plane coming from the right has right-of-way and you then would have to avoid by adjusting so you fly behind the plane on your right as it passes?

The thing that IS different here, I was specifically asking here to get the general experience here. I'm not currently flying, as I have to pass the written in order to be able to solo, so I'm not contacting my CFI and asking him to work for free. There are instructors at the school (mostly online school) but I chose to ask here because of all the experience.

 

[FlySince9]

How about this, If the plane was coming from your left, would you just keep flying straight into a collision since it is his responsibility to turn in response to your approaching from his right? Of course not... Take appropriate action to avoid a collision... "How far away or how close before these actions should be taken?" When you as PIC deem it appropriate to do so... You cannot learn judgment sitting in a chair, reading a book. Judgment comes from experience... My first perception of whether or not a conflict is imminent is if the "target" does not move. If it stays in one position relative to me, then we are probably on a collision course. I've seen your posts on here before. I don't understand your situation, but it would be very helpful if you could fly as well as study for the test... Doing both will help you to better understand each...

Good Luck with your training....

 

[BigBadLou]

If he is to your right and converging, you need some right aileron and elevator pull, do a slow barrel roll while keeping him in sight (out of your right window) and when you resume straight & level flight, you will be behind him and he will be in your gun sights, ready to pull the trigger. Textbook Air Force maneuver.

Now take that with a grain of salt (or a pinch ... or a rock ... ).

 

[Salty]

If he is to your right and converging, you need some right aileron and elevator pull, do a slow barrel roll while keeping him in sight (out of your right window) and when you resume straight & level flight, you will be behind him and he will be in your gun sights, ready to pull the trigger. Textbook Air Force maneuver.

Now take that with a grain of salt (or a pinch ... or a rock ... ).

Best post of the week!

 

[Cooter]

How far away or how close before these actions should be taken?

As soon as you see that it may be a problem. The earlier you correct your flight path the less deviation will be required. So say I am flying VFR and I look out and see a plane off of my right and we are converging at about 90° angle. The sooner I check right, the easier the deviation will be.

 

[TheGolfPilot]

I never, and I mean never, say to myself "Its my right away so I am going to continue". If someone is on a collision course with me I am going to evaluate the situation as though nobody has a right away and take action accordingly. Right away does nothing for me dead

 

[LongRoadBob]

I never, and I mean never, say to myself "Its my right away so I am going to continue". If someone is on a collision course with me I am going to evaluate the situation as though nobody has a right away and take action accordingly. Right away does nothing for me dead

Nobody is really suggesting that though.
It's just with the regulations at the base, there is less chance of that becoming more serious.

All I'm trying to understand is if I picture this right.

 

[champ driver]

You're over thinking this a bit, relax. Not all situations are like Top Gun and require split second decisions.
Distances will vary when seeing other aircraft, some might be close, but still not a factor, and some will be farther away, maybe 1-2 miles. Closure angle will vary too, every one is different and you'll soon learn what it takes to avoid the other aircraft. You can't anticipate the other aircrafts sudden or unanticipated maneuvers. When you go and fly with your instructor and do see other planes, you can think through what it will take to avoid them with whatever maneuver it might require. You want to de-conflict the possible situation and still keep the other plane in sight.

 

[Kritchlow]

I never, and I mean never, say to myself "Its my right away so I am going to continue". If someone is on a collision course with me I am going to evaluate the situation as though nobody has a right away and take action accordingly. Right away does nothing for me dead

That's great.... just realize what the other person is suppose to do so you don't turn in the direction he is turning to avoid you.

 

[denverpilot]

I think he’s asking while studying for a European written, which means he’s looking for the long legalese answer.

The real world answer in the airplane is: Do whatever it takes to not hit the other aircraft.

 

[LongRoadBob]

I think he’s asking while studying for a European written, which means he’s looking for the long legalese answer.

The real world answer in the airplane is: Do whatever it takes to not hit the other aircraft.

Thanks denverpilot, actually I have the legalese part, but it is so unspecific, I know the intent (prevent collisions) too, but still was curious about the actual use in practice. Mainly a few of the answers here helped a lot. I also understand this is the intenet, but I was never in doubt that you do whatever you have to to avoid. But rules are what (if the other guy follows them, and sees you) help us not correct into a worse situation. If the other guy doesn't follow the right-of-way rule (if he has it, he is supposed to continue on, and not maneuver, at least here) you then change what you do.

But as some pointed out, this comes with experience I guess. I'm thinking of if I don't see the other airplane until it is closer, judging how to comply safely, etc.

It happens all the time in autos (though you usually can count on the other car at least keeping to the road, no roads up there) and I drive defensively. It happens in hallways or sidewalks, we've all had that where you both "avoid" the same side, then the other, then back again, until one person stops, grins and makes a gesture "ok you go THAT way, I'll go this way". Kinda want to avoid the aviation version of that one

But I got some good answers here, so thanks all!

 

[Palmpilot]

If the people who wrote the regulations didn't specify how close or how far away you should take action to avoid a collision, it's probably because they didn't think it was necessary to define pilot actions with that degree of specificity, and recognized that some things are better left to the pilots to decide. In practice, my opinion is that it is better to take collision avoidance action too early than too late.

 

[LongRoadBob]

If the people who wrote the regulations didn't specify how close or how far away you should take action to avoid a collision, it's probably because they didn't think it was necessary to define pilot actions with that degree of specificity, and recognized that some things are better left to the pilots to decide. In practice, my opinion is that it is better to take collision avoidance action too early than too late.

Definitely, and I thought that too. But your post helped get me to home in on what was bothering me. i was wondering, if I'm flying along, and I catch sight of a plane at (as far as I can tell...) about the same altitude converging from my right, obviously I need to judge it, but can it be that one would judge that relative speeds or distance were such that you believe you will be well past the other plane and there is no need to alter your course? And of course, you wouldn't make that decision and then ignore it, you would keep attention on the other and be ready to alter if needed, but continue? Or does just the fact that you can see it mean you should alter?

Sorry if this is a dumb question, I have only eleven hours flying, and it hasn't happened yet. Have only seen other planes that are not in any way converging.

 

[Palmpilot]

The mere sight of another plane does not by itself indicate a need to alter course. In general, the ability to judge whether and how much to alter course comes from experience, but one thing that helps is that if another aircraft appears stationary in your windscreen or window, then you're on a collision course with it.

 

[LongRoadBob]

The mere sight of another plane does not by itself indicate a need to alter course. In general, the ability to judge whether and how much to alter course comes from experience, but one thing that helps is that if another aircraft appears stationary in your windscreen or window, then you're on a collision course with it.

Thanks! That helps a lot! That tip about stationary I am burning into my brain...excellent. I hadn't "put it together", I have seen how the stationary area while landing is the landing "point", but of course, that also works horizontally! Thank you again!

 

[cowman]

From a practical standpoint most of the traffic you'll encounter will be at/around airports. When towered, the tower will tell you where to go and what to do. At an uncontrolled field most pilots will be on the radio and, usually, will work out a simple practical way to avoid each other like extending a downwind leg in the traffic pattern or doing a 360 to delay their arrival. You still have to be looking out for traffic in case someone makes a mistake or an airplane without a radio arrives but normally, at least in my experience, the right of way rules almost never come into play. Most of the time it will be pilots or ATC working out a practical way for everyone to avoid each other depending on the situation.

 

[denverpilot]

From a practical standpoint most of the traffic you'll encounter will be at/around airports. When towered, the tower will tell you where to go and what to do...

... and might screw it up. Never trust them 100%.

At an uncontrolled field most pilots will...

...eventually do something stupid and you’ll have to avoid them, with whatever works.

You’ll know it went wrong in either case when you’re counting rivets in aircraft skin as your butt puckers real tight.

FTFY! LOL...