Raptor Aircraft

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Unit74, Nov 6, 2015.

  1. OneCharlieTango

    OneCharlieTango Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Is there an executive summary of that video? I understand he’s headed to Salt Lake City, but I thought he used to say “west coast” or “California.” I do wonder what awaits him out there — on the ground and in the (very thin) air.
     
  2. donjohnston

    donjohnston Cleared for Takeoff

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    That's what he's supposed to do. I'm guessing at VLD the tower knew who he was so he thought he could get away with "raptor" there.
     
  3. iamtheari

    iamtheari Administrator Management Council Member

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    Indeed. I found it odd that he always did it wrong at a towered airport but got it right at an air park. He mentioned flight following on his trip to Arkansas, so maybe center corrected him.
     
  4. iamtheari

    iamtheari Administrator Management Council Member

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    He mentioned the Boise area and Twin Falls. He said that he will stop short of there in Montana and the people he is working with will come get his suitcase and other stuff to lighten the plane for the hop over the mountains. I don’t know what route he is planning that even goes close to Montana. From 2A2 to KTWF, the direct line is through southern Wyoming. Of course, any route from AR to ID is going to require altitudes he hasn’t reached yet. And his windphobia will be a serious impediment. In Wyoming and Montana, they call 15 knots “calm” unless it’s gusting over 30.
     
  5. donjohnston

    donjohnston Cleared for Takeoff

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    There is just no way that removing baggage is going to allow him to get high enough to clear those mountains... in the summer. That place never got over 6,000' (and that with a wonky static port that adds who know how much altitude to his altimeter) in the winter.
     
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  6. MacFlier

    MacFlier Pre-takeoff checklist

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    At least the fix he did on the wings made the plane a lot more stable. It now flies much much better.
     
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  7. iamtheari

    iamtheari Administrator Management Council Member

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    My biggest fear for his ego on the trip to Idaho is that he will encounter conditions beyond what he and the plane are currently capable of (winds, density altitudes, turbulence, IMC, terrain, etc.) and have to choose between pressing on and eating crow.

    My biggest fear for his safety is that he will get to the mountains, be unable to climb, and be unable to execute the necessary canyon turn to escape the terrain. The extent of his stall awareness in the plane appears to be, as stated in the Arkansas video, a firm belief that the nose will drop and the plane will continue flying. Even if that's true, it's not tremendously helpful when you need to make a tight turn close to rising terrain.

    I suspect that trying to yank a canard through a tight turn while the foreplane is stalling continuously or repeatedly (I don't know which it would do) would look a lot like trying to drive a front-wheel-drive car through an icy corner by turning the steering wheel harder. Except, unlike what happened to me my first winter as a licensed driver, instead of hitting the history teacher's rose bush the Raptor will drop its nose and continue flying directly into a rock.
     
  8. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Pattern Altitude

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    Is there anyone here that, in the first 40-hours of flying time would NOT have taken this plane to at least 10,000 or 12,000, if able?

    Is there anyone here that would have also not done some simple stall testing, with proper precautions?
     
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  9. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

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    Actually, no. 14CFR 91.319 says merely that the operator must "...Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with operating control towers." Doesn't say it must use "Experimental" as its aircraft type on a radio call, and in any case, CTAF is not a control tower.

    AIM gives an example: "Breezy Six One Three Romeo Experimental (omit “Experimental” after initial contact)."

    Mind you, the last time I flew into a controlled field ("Fly Baby 45848 Experimental inbound with Charlie") the *tower* used "Experimental" as my aircraft type afterwards. I reciprocated, just to minimize confusion.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  10. 231TC

    231TC Pre-takeoff checklist

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    He could get through the mountains following I-90 but that's a little out of the way and it sounded like he was planning something more direct through mountain passes. If so, it's a terrible idea.
     
  11. kyleb

    kyleb Final Approach

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    I think "If able" applies here. The airplane is badly undercooled and seems to have far less power than he claims. In yesterday's video, he said he was at 65% power, and the ASI was indicating 110 knots. That tells me the engine has far less power than he claims. Stack those things with the airplane's excess weight and he hasn't had the ability to get the airplane over (what?) 4,000'?

    The stall testing? Yeah, that should have been done.

    This is a pointless exercise that could have a very bad outcome.
     
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  12. DaleB

    DaleB Final Approach

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    If that porker can't make it over the mountains with one guy and some baggage, then I fail to see the point of going west to begin with. But hey, not my plane, not my circus, not my monkey. Maybe they're going to replace the Audi engine with a PT6 or something.
     
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  13. kyleb

    kyleb Final Approach

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    Maybe they can do a tow launch to about 18,000' behind a C-130 and the drift down rate will allow him to clear the mountains.
     
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  14. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Pattern Altitude

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    Bottom line is he has just flown it 40 hrs. He has no idea of vso,vs1,va,vx, vy, service ceiling, he has never determined best glide, he has never fixed. The static problems. Basically he has no test data at all.
     
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  15. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    Not true. He knows how it performs doing figure eights at 3500 feet.
     
  16. iamtheari

    iamtheari Administrator Management Council Member

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    He has had it up to 6000 indicated altitude, I think. The density altitude in the pattern in western ND today was 5500. I hope he waits for cooler weather before attempting to fly far into the Great Plains, much less beyond.
     
  17. donjohnston

    donjohnston Cleared for Takeoff

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    Key word there is "indicated". For all he knows, with that wonky static port, he could actually be at 5,500'. Or 5,000'.
     
  18. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Hmm...wonder what a static source error large enough to cause a -1000 ft altitude error might mean in terms of calibrated airspeed at 110 KIAS. ;)

    Indeed.

    Nauga,
    who follows the source
     
  19. aftCG

    aftCG Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Oh yeah, that could kill him for sure.
     
  20. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    He posted a video! He flew off the 40 hours!!

    His hanger doesn't have a paved driveway so he's using his friend's

     
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  21. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Not gonna lie, it's flying not bad
     
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  22. Racerx

    Racerx Line Up and Wait

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    Jumped off the Cirrus bandwagon and back onto Raptor?
     
  23. 231TC

    231TC Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Word on the street (comments section) is he's been busting his operating limitations because his DAR told him all he had to do was make a logbook entry at 40 hours and then he was free to go fly it wherever he wants. Sounds like bad advice from the DAR or a misunderstanding of what was said. Hopefully PM is talking to a good aviation attorney before taking off for Idaho.
     
  24. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    Actually, I've known several people who did just that: flew forty, loaded up the plane with family, went places. Is there more required?
     
  25. OkieAviator

    OkieAviator Pattern Altitude

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    As long as he’s made the proper log entries per his op limits he’s good.
     
  26. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    That's when you know things have gone real bad for me. It flew relatively stable, even hands off. There were several things in the video that were just too easy though so I didn't bother with it. He mentioned having to fly with the heat on to keep the engine oil under 240 so he cut a whole in the plane for extra vent for himself since it gets very hot in the cabin now. His parachute cover blew off one flight so he taped a random plastic panel onto it.. he still has the deathgrip on the sidestick on takeoff

    But, it did apparently make it to 40 hours (so what, about 30 on the current engine) and it's flying relatively stable
     
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  27. iamtheari

    iamtheari Administrator Management Council Member

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    It's been discussed in this thread. See posts #3134 and #3141 (both on page 79) for example.

    Short version: The paperwork for an Experimental-Research and Development certificate is not the same as for an Experimental-Amateur Built certificate. E-AB typically requires a Phase I flight test of a minimum of 40 hours of solo, day VFR, within a specified radius of a specified place. Raptor's E-R&D certificate does not work that way. I don't know if anyone has seen the actual certificate and limitations for N352TD, so we are speculating a bit. But more informed people seem to agree that it certainly does not allow him to fly anywhere he wants after simply logging 40 hours.
     
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  28. UngaWunga

    UngaWunga Pattern Altitude

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    Some very large control inputs on landing...
     
  29. A Martin

    A Martin Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I noticed around 39:40 he said he will have future announcements and press releases along the lines of ......

    .... "some super exiting stuff we are working on " ... "cant really say anything about it just yet" ...

    .
     
  30. A Martin

    A Martin Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I had that same impression.

    If I was a newbie and not aware of some of PM's (maybe unrealistic) goals .... but was wanting a very roomy aircraft with great forward visibility , that could economically burn JetA and was a sharp modern looking machine , It would certainly catch my interest.

    .
     
  31. A Martin

    A Martin Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I have a question ..... I cannot wrap my mind around the fact that he is using that awkward-looking single hand control unit for his aileron and elevator control.

    I have watched the build videos and did not see any hydraulic assist ..... only saw the typical aircraft cable-pulley system ..... my question is .... are the control forces so light and easy that one hand on that small control is enough ??
     
  32. donjohnston

    donjohnston Cleared for Takeoff

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    Marc Zeitlin paid $10 for the documents on the plane which included the OL's. He said it's a typical E/R&D with no Phase I. So no leaving the test area without a new OL.
     
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  33. donjohnston

    donjohnston Cleared for Takeoff

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    I obviously can't speak to the raptor, but the Velocity has either a center stick which uses torque tubes and flex cables (same type as used on boat steering) or side sticks using torque tubes and push/pull links. No problem at all with one hand on a relatively small throw stick. I can't imagine that adding a cable-pulley system in would make it significantly harder.
     
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  34. DaleB

    DaleB Final Approach

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    Not to mention, I think my LSA could just about keep up with him in cruise flight…. But not on final. Yeesh. I have to wonder, though, how he calculated his approach speed when he doesn't know what VS0 is.
    Sure, right up until you explored the actual specs, I imagine. I haven't watched all of the videos, but from what I gather it seems to top out at about 130 knots or so, and can't make it to a reasonable altitude with a solo pilot and baggage.

    I think it's an interesting prototype that a skilled design engineer could use as a starting point. Fix all of the things that have Band-Aids and kludges on the prototype, and do them right to reduce the weight and the build cost. Ditch what is quite obviously a grossly inadequate engine and swap in something with appropriate power for the airframe and intended use. Or... maybe not. Maybe a skilled designer with experience could shave half a ton off the empty weight and get some of the drag devices off the thing. I mean, seriously. Aileron spades?

    If I were trying to do what Peter is doing, there's a short list of people from the Experimental community that I'd reach out to for assistance and advice. There are guys out there with the engineering knowledge and experience to do amazing things with drag and structural strength. I've seen one or two go into great detail about fixing cooling problems and reducing drag at the same time... amazing stuff to someone like me who lacks a deep education in physics, fluid dynamics, and that kind of thing. "That looks about right" will only get you so far. After that you really do need to lean on people who know what the hell they're talking about.
     
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  35. Katamarino

    Katamarino Pattern Altitude

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    Any time I hear someone say that I feel I can safely say they're full of crap. Put up, or shut up.
     
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  36. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator Final Approach

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    Amazing that you'd need large control inputs while coming across the threshold at 100kts, lol.
     
  37. donjohnston

    donjohnston Cleared for Takeoff

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    Here's the thing. We already know that his static port location is bad. He picks up at least 100' on the ground roll during takeoff. That will also equate to a higher indicated airspeed than actual. How much faster is he indicating? I don't know. But it's possible that he's only going 90kts over the threshold. I guess that also means his cruise speed could be slower than he thinks. Since he's never done any testing for that, we'll never know. But he's "okay with that".

    As for large control inputs on final, either excess slop in the control system, poorly designed ailerons or poorly designed wing. Some early Velocity's had these kinds of problems, VG's were a common fix until they came up with a new wing design.

    Here's my landing (skip to 19:30 for the landing). I'm about 5kts faster than normal in this one.

     
  38. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator Final Approach

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    Yup, over the threshold at 80kts and touchdown at 75kts. Even if you were a bit fast I'd not think anything of it. If he is really coming in at 100kts, that's insane due to the fact that he doesn't actually know what speed he should be flying on final/touchdown since he doesn't know any of his v-speeds (nor does he have an accurate ASI) as well as the fact that there's a bunch of unnecessary wear & tear on landing gear and associated components. Add to that the additional energy he is bringing along in the event of a mishap and it could be the difference in survival.
     
  39. geezer

    geezer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Nice flight, donjohnston! I particularly enjoyed the real engine noise throughout, so that I was aware of all adjustments to power. Both you and your plane fly quite smoothly.
     
  40. Racerx

    Racerx Line Up and Wait

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    So did he get a new OL or did he once again say "it's an experimental aircraft, I can do what I want!"...as referenced by him flying a west cross country at 3500'- 4,000'
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2021