<Rant> Please announce your intentions in English for us mortal VFR pilots</Rant>

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by WannFly, Nov 30, 2017.

  1. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route

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    I agree. I always make VFR calls, not IFR calls when flying an approach. Usually calling "5 miles out, straight in for runway 16 and I will be going around at 200' AGL" etc.

    Much better than saying "5 miles out on ILS 16 and will execute the standard missed". Huh? Sure, pilots that know where that is will understand you. But the VFR one, EVERYONE understands you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  2. MadseasoN

    MadseasoN Line Up and Wait

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    My favorites:
    "Podunk traffic Cessna 1234 is on the GPS approach for 32".
    Thanks. But that doesn't mean anything to me.

    "Podunk traffic Cessna 1234 is over the high school".
    Which one? There are at least 50 in the range of this frequency. At least 3 within 10 miles of the AP.

    Several ATC or tower controllers who don't like repeating themselves: "<sigh> ..."
    Your sigh doesn't affect my flying in the least. So stop it.
     
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  3. jnmeade

    jnmeade Cleared for Takeoff

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    I am a CFII and understand the issue.
    Anymore, I simply get on the horn as ask, "Piper 12345 how far are you from the airport, what altitude and what heading". I tend to do that even when I know exactly where they are, just to be ornery.
    As we all know, too often in an IFR training situation, BOTH heads are in the cockpit. Shouldn't be, but too often is. I'm thinking see-and-avoid is too often not as good as it might be in this situation, so helping the VFR pilot understand where you are helps him help you avoid a mid-air.
     
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  4. chartbundle

    chartbundle Line Up and Wait

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    And since they didn't say Podunk again at the end of the transmission, the beginning one was stepped on so you really have no useful information at all.
     
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  5. jnmeade

    jnmeade Cleared for Takeoff

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    I don't mind announcing over a given landmark if it is distinctive and helps situational awareness, but agree that it needs to be precise. Sometimes two local pilots may have informal separation discussions that the rest of the world doesn't understand and it may not make any difference. so I don' t dismiss landmark references out of hand.
     
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  6. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    On a diff leg I heard a pilot make awesome position report for every possible turn in his pattern, but failed to announce the airport, twice. I knew it was not my destination airport because of the runway numbers, but must be confusing to everyone else on that frequency.

    I will admit, I have acquired a habit of ending my calls with my tail number for whatever reason , my home field is towered, then key in and correct it with the non towered airport name

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
  7. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    The other problem is... I am not local, I don't know where the freaking high school to the south is

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
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  8. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I agree. Second rant is for those who insist on giving military type position reports that don't mean anything to civilians (IFR or VFR). Oddly, this is never the actual military doing it, just a bunch of guys still pretending that WWII is still going on.
     
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  9. Chip Sylverne

    Chip Sylverne En-Route

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    Fear is the poison of our lives.
    I am more concerned with other IFR guys shooting practice approaches than I am vfr guys. I want the other guy heading to the holding fix iunder the hood to know that I'm in the hold, outbound or inbound, or at the FAF. Then I'll say x miles out, straight in rwy xx or whatever the intention may be. I've almost been creamed more times by one pilot under the hood and the other looking at an ipad than I have by vfr guys in the pattern.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  10. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    No no..... you do not need to know where other traffic is. Everyone just needs to listen.
     
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  11. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    Instead of ranting about the quality of the position report being given, maybe we should be happy that a position report was given? This is just a friendly reminder that use of the radio is optional in the situation described by the OP.

    If you can't get a position report out of the other pilot that you can understand the thing you should take away from the radio transmission is that there is someone else in the area using the airport besides you. Not that you shouldn't be looking anyway, but be extra thorough in your scan of the horizon as you look for the other airplane.
     
  12. somorris

    somorris Pattern Altitude

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    I'm with you, Paul. I can't recall any approaches that would have a procedure turn after a touch and go.
     
  13. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Easy enough to transition from one approach to another approach to the opposite runway which would include a procedure turn or a HIL. It'd save time maneuvering for the next practice approach.
     
  14. somorris

    somorris Pattern Altitude

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    Sure it is easy enough, Clark, but in that case more verbiage would have been nice and it would have been another approach. I was just pointing out that as Paul said, she lost some of her cool factor. We all need to work on being more specific in language everybody can understand.
     
  15. Chip Sylverne

    Chip Sylverne En-Route

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    Fear is the poison of our lives.
    More likely they said "published missed" and the op after hearing both doesn't know that from a procedure turn.
     
  16. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Cool factor lost. What's cool factor? Tell ya what, I'll put you under the hood then fail all your instruments except the tach and the clock and we'll see where your "cool factor" is. Deal?

    None of us were perfect during instrument training. Well, maybe Henning was. Maybe the CFII in this case shoulda chimed in. I agree that it is best to give the VFR translation on position reports just as it is important to let other IFR studs know where ya are on the approach that they may also be flying. Its a balance thing and I think the CFIIs should be picking up the slack. They aren't doing much but being ballast anyway by that point in the training...
     
  17. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Good point...

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  18. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Completely possible, I picked up few words here and there but the whole sentence didn't make any sense to me

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  19. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    By the way, the lady in question was on right seat. May be she is CFI II, donno. I saw them gett8ng ready for departure after I landed. I doubt a student will ever volunteer to sit on the rt seat. Or may be the lady was safety pilot making radio calls.

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  20. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    "Published Miss".... ouch. That would be silly, and perhaps flat out braggy.

    Just not good form.
     
  21. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    And, once we get the IFR dudes (and dudettes) straightened out, we can work on the VFR guys (and guyettes) that announce things like right downwind for 21 when they are on a left downwind for 03...
     
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  22. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Exactly..... but it's taboo to ask where anyone is.... at least in POA.
     
  23. somorris

    somorris Pattern Altitude

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    I would, but I might lose my cool factor :).
     
  24. nauga

    nauga Pattern Altitude

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    "Cirrus approaching Alexandria, Warrior XXXX initial for the overhead, 31, we'll keep an eye out fer ya."

    Nauga,
    in the blind
     
  25. charheep

    charheep Line Up and Wait

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    Turn off your radio. Problem solved.
     
  26. TRocket

    TRocket Line Up and Wait

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    Bugsmasher 12345, 5 mile final, practice low approach, RWY 34... and subsequent intervals from the runway. Keeps it simple and any pilot should be able to understand. [Says who you are, where you are, and what you are going to do when you get to the runway, pretty simple]

    And while there are IR guys that do not to a good job of announcing there positions/intentions (myself included I'm sure) that can be frustrating to VFR guys, there are plenty of VFR guys they say plenty of screwy stuff that irritates IR guys. It's a two way street.

    My .02
     
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  27. MadseasoN

    MadseasoN Line Up and Wait

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    I agree. I was being a little facetious about the GPS approach callout. I've taken the time to learn the IFR approaches at my home airport. And where all the schools are.

    Still would help to be more accurate. We have 2 Bravo, 3-4 Delta, and a whole bunch of other airports within a 20 mile radius. There are definitely other planes in the area. I defer to the AIM.
     
  28. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Cleared for Takeoff

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    Similar for the formation jockeys who announce "initial" and "break". Yeah yeah I know the overhead pattern is in the AIM. But it's very obscure, not generally taught, and 99% of the flight school guys in the beehive pattern will have no clue what they're talking about. If you're gonna bother talking on the radio, make sure there is comprehension on the other end.
     
  29. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    What would you expect a military to say differently? That's what they are taught, and controllers use the terms also, FAA and military controllers. It's explained in the AIM so wouldn't a flight school ensure students knew what the terms were if military planes are there a lot, or based there especially. It ain't rocket science!
     
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  30. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Cleared for Takeoff

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    I'm not talking military field or military pilots recovering aircraft after an Uncle Sam funded exercise. I'm talking recreational formation pilots flying personal aircraft for fun at GA airports using lingo that most do not understand. How about just say X miles out for an overhead upwind Rwy XX for midfield crosswind circle to land. Most will understand that.
     
  31. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    OK, I thought you were talking about military. I see your point.
     
  32. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

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    Thanks for posting that. When I started my instrument training and we did practice approaches my instructor was very strict about keeping the terms VFR basic. The first time I came on with something jumbled like "departing the hold inbound VOR ALPHA to MDA then executing missed" and he was like "what the hell does all that mean?"... up until a few months ago I would have had no idea what the heck that meant either! Now we just say something easy "inbound from the west, 5 miles, will do a low approach to runway 6 at 1,100 then depart to the northeast"

    I notice that at the controlled airport when we do the practice approaches the tower also announces us to other pattern traffic with basic terms, "the archer will be from the east, making a left 270 midfield. Follow him on your downwind to 27L"
     
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  33. 1RTK1

    1RTK1 Line Up and Wait

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    If you think the OP's problem understanding IFR lingo is hard, try flying at an uncontrolled field that happens to be next to a school comprised of mainly Chinese students that haven't yet mastered the English language
     
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  34. MetalCloud

    MetalCloud Line Up and Wait

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    I get it. I'm IFR, and if I go into an uncontrolled field for an approach, I speak as if I'm doing it VFR. It's not hard.

    Let's say you've got a dude in a Skycatcher 6 pack.. If you say "Cirrus 123 over WAYPT inbound on the GPS 30" he's not going to have a clue what that means. He can ask, but why put the burden on him? So I just call it like it's a VFR approach. "Cirrus 123 10 miles to the South, on the GPS approach straight in for 30 full stop."

    Safer that way. I can't control what other people inherently know or don't know. But I can control what information I give them.
     
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  35. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    ha ha. I know what you mean. they often come over from grand forks and more often than not I have no idea what they are saying, thank god for the controlled airport in KFAR. I have no idea how the controllers understand, but I like to believe they do.
     
  36. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    Just say, "What a coincidence? So am I."
     
  37. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    I wish that I could honestly say that I have never done that.
     
  38. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    What's the "overhead?" I don't see it on my approach plate?
     
  39. FlySince9

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    Probably sounds like a bunch of silverware hitting the floor... You know... Ching, chang, Plink, Bing, Bonk...etc...

    EDIT: Affectionately, of course....
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
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  40. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I can honestly say I've never done exactly that.