Ramp checked, my first time

Tom-D said:
My airport was 3 miles from the house and I had to go past the house to get to town, now that the hangar is 45 minutes away I leave my flight bag in the aircraft locked in the hangar. head sets, GPS and all.
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Oh -- then it's not true that you "carry it every where [you] go, and do not leave it unattended" as you posted earlier. Your later post seems more sensible.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
See? I knew it! So glad I laminated it. I want it to look just like it did the day I earned that sucker.
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Curious.

Mine still does look new. Had it since January, and it goes everywhere with me (flying or not). My medical looks like hell, but that's from stuffing it in the logbook too many times while I was a student pilot.
 
Tom-D said:
I hope Denney Pollard checks in on this, he is a real inspector, (or was) he operates in public view actually helps the public, is a DME, has his own web site, writes a news letter for his club, will e-mail you directly from his office with a ______.FAA.GOV address.
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I believe Denny is retired. In any case, he is now living in Japan. Good guy though, gave me lots of good advice on dealing with a FSDO inspector who was querying about a diversion.
 
MAKG1 said:
Curious.

Mine still does look new. Had it since January, and it goes everywhere with me (flying or not). My medical looks like hell, but that's from stuffing it in the logbook too many times while I was a student pilot.
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As does mine. I think I got mine in late Septemberish?
 
Ron Levy said:
Oh -- then it's not true that you "carry it every where [you] go, and do not leave it unattended" as you posted earlier. Your later post seems more sensible.
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well when you put it that way. I don't carry it to the potty either.

But when I go aviating anywhere, it goes too.

I don't leave it in the aircraft when I go to the ______, or when I leave the aircraft on the ramp. there is too much stuff in it I can't afford to loose.
 
azure said:
I believe Denny is retired. In any case, he is now living in Japan. Good guy though, gave me lots of good advice on dealing with a FSDO inspector who was querying about a diversion.
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Yes I believe that's true, but he is still active in aviation and will answer question, and doesn't hide behind a monicker and snipe other's on the web.

I have great respect for Denny, even tho I have had different opinions than his.
 
Tom-D said:
well when you put it that way. I don't carry it to the potty either.

But when I go aviating anywhere, it goes too.

I don't leave it in the aircraft when I go to the ______, or when I leave the aircraft on the ramp. there is too much stuff in it I can't afford to loose.
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So they you do carry it to the potty. :D
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Of course I signed it. I laminated it because I heard after a few months in my wallet - my name and all the other writing would "wear off". You should see the cards etc in my boyfriend's wallet - all beat up. I didn't want that to happen to me.
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Someday you'll be getting a new one every two years and it won't be such a problem....
 
Tom-D said:
Yes I believe that's true, but he is still active in aviation and will answer question, and doesn't hide behind a monicker and snipe other's on the web.
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Indeed so. His advice to me was by email... from Japan.
 
What happens if your eyes change color? Should I get three different pilot certificates and look in the mirror before I fly to decide which to take? That would be funny.
 
jpower said:
What happens if your eyes change color? Should I get three different pilot certificates and look in the mirror before I fly to decide which to take? That would be funny.
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The FAA web site gave you the option to update your hair color and weight (and address), but not the eye color.
 
PPC1052 said:
This guy is nuts! When is the last time you ever used the tire while in the air? Answer: NEVER! Maybe if he had said the plane wasn't GROUNDworthy.

Oh yeah. In your FACE, FAA!!!
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Yea, What They Said!!! :rofl::rofl:
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Of course I signed it. I laminated it because I heard after a few months in my wallet - my name and all the other writing would "wear off". You should see the cards etc in my boyfriend's wallet - all beat up. I didn't want that to happen to me.
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kimberlyanne546 said:
See? I knew it! So glad I laminated it. I want it to look just like it did the day I earned that sucker.
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I felt the same way, but I have found that instead of laminating, a little plastic wrap works just as well
 
Josh_C said:
I felt the same way, but I have found that instead of laminating, a little plastic wrap works just as well
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I go to Kinko's a lot for work. They laminated it in this huge pro laminator. It came out not so great. The second one they laminated with self laminating sheets. That one looks professional, and they didn't even need a machine. Go figure.
 
I have been lucky, only approached once and the inspector gave up before he ever got to my plane. It went like this:

I was walking across the ramp in civvies,(stayed with friends and was going to change on board) toward a plane we had brought in for an event.

Inspector: "Hello. I am Joe Jones of the FAA, we're doing spot ramp checks today. Going flying?"

Me: Yes.

Him: May I accompany you to your aircraft and conduct an inspection?

Me: Sure thing.

After we stroll down the line of display craft a ways: "Where is your plane?"

Me: "It's the big white C-130 with the red stripe."

Him: Oh......er...have a nice day.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
I have been lucky, only approached once and the inspector gave up before he ever got to my plane. It went like this:

I was walking across the ramp in civvies,(stayed with friends and was going to change on board) toward a plane we had brought in for an event.

Inspector: "Hello. I am Joe Jones of the FAA, we're doing spot ramp checks today. Going flying?"

Me: Yes.

Him: May I accompany you to your aircraft and conduct an inspection?

Me: Sure thing.

After we stroll down the line of display craft a ways: "Where is your plane?"

Me: "It's the big white C-130 with the red stripe."

Him: Oh......er...have a nice day.
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Now that's funny.
 
Hello Tom and Capt Ron, I am still around and active in aviation. I did retire from the Oakland FSDO July 2011 and moved to Northern Japan. I am back in Oakland this week performing mechanic tests as a DME for two colleges in the Bay Area.

During a ramp check the FAA will not or should not ask to see you aircraft records unless you have them onboard the aircraft. In all my years as an inspector I never look at aircraft records during a ramp check or did I ask to see them.

I was at the FSDO yesterday and now with the new Pilot Bill of Rights everything has changed with ramp inspections and the way the FAA is allowed to do business.

Now the FAA will have you sign the Pilot Bill of Rights before they ramp your aircraft. If you do not sign it the FAA is trying to decide if they can still inspect your aircraft. This question has not been answered yet. For all of us any time we do any business with the FAA such as with certificates, ramp inspection, flight reviews the FAA will ask us to sign a Pilot Bill of Rights. If you do not sign the Bill of Rights the FAA will not process your airman certificates.

This has become a BIG confusing mess right now inside the FAA. As I understand there are six different types of Pilot Bill of Rights. I am getting copies of all six today and will spend some time reviewing them.

The Pilot Bill of Right has tied the hands of how the FAA does business and give power back to the airman. Its a good thing.

If you would like to contact me the best way is through my web site there is a hyper link with my email address on it. Just go to www.stacheair.com and click on the hyper link.

I will be returning home to Japan this coming Saturday.
 
Stache said:
Hello Tom and Capt Ron, I am still around and active in aviation. I did retire from the Oakland FSDO July 2011 and moved to Northern Japan.

...

I will be returning home to Japan this coming Saturday.
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Hey! Good to see your "face" here; drop on in anytime! :yes:
 
Stache said:
Hello Tom and Capt Ron, I am still around and active in aviation. I did retire from the Oakland FSDO July 2011 and moved to Northern Japan. I am back in Oakland this week performing mechanic tests as a DME for two colleges in the Bay Area.

During a ramp check the FAA will not or should not ask to see you aircraft records unless you have them onboard the aircraft. In all my years as an inspector I never look at aircraft records during a ramp check or did I ask to see them.

I was at the FSDO yesterday and now with the new Pilot Bill of Rights everything has changed with ramp inspections and the way the FAA is allowed to do business.

Now the FAA will have you sign the Pilot Bill of Rights before they ramp your aircraft. If you do not sign it the FAA is trying to decide if they can still inspect your aircraft. This question has not been answered yet. For all of us any time we do any business with the FAA such as with certificates, ramp inspection, flight reviews the FAA will ask us to sign a Pilot Bill of Rights. If you do not sign the Bill of Rights the FAA will not process your airman certificates.

This has become a BIG confusing mess right now inside the FAA. As I understand there are six different types of Pilot Bill of Rights. I am getting copies of all six today and will spend some time reviewing them.

The Pilot Bill of Right has tied the hands of how the FAA does business and give power back to the airman. Its a good thing.

If you would like to contact me the best way is through my web site there is a hyper link with my email address on it. Just go to www.stacheair.com and click on the hyper link.

I will be returning home to Japan this coming Saturday.
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Good to hear from you, stache.... :)
 
Unless you are a student you are not required to carry a logbook . maintenance records are not also required to be available for inspection in a ramp check.

Nor are you required to answer ANY of his questions.

If I was ramp checked I'd cooperate to the point of answering questions related to FAA functions. Then I'd defer and contend I'm not comfortable answering. Simple things like how the day is or where I am going are fine unless it gets followed up with an aircraft/airman related question. Then s/he is done.

Nor are you required to present a W&B computation right then and there if you don't have it. You are required to know the aircraft is in compliance, not perform one before every flight.

Next time, don't make 'funny' comments about not understanding all the little round dials, either. It's not a joke.
 
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The problem with the FAAs form is that some versions waive rights. I'm not seeing any place in the PBOR where I need to waive those rights to get the faa to do their job. That is going to need to be addressed, and soon.


Stache said:
Hello Tom and Capt Ron, I am still around and active in aviation. I did retire from the Oakland FSDO July 2011 and moved to Northern Japan. I am back in Oakland this week performing mechanic tests as a DME for two colleges in the Bay Area.

During a ramp check the FAA will not or should not ask to see you aircraft records unless you have them onboard the aircraft. In all my years as an inspector I never look at aircraft records during a ramp check or did I ask to see them.

I was at the FSDO yesterday and now with the new Pilot Bill of Rights everything has changed with ramp inspections and the way the FAA is allowed to do business.

Now the FAA will have you sign the Pilot Bill of Rights before they ramp your aircraft. If you do not sign it the FAA is trying to decide if they can still inspect your aircraft. This question has not been answered yet. For all of us any time we do any business with the FAA such as with certificates, ramp inspection, flight reviews the FAA will ask us to sign a Pilot Bill of Rights. If you do not sign the Bill of Rights the FAA will not process your airman certificates.

This has become a BIG confusing mess right now inside the FAA. As I understand there are six different types of Pilot Bill of Rights. I am getting copies of all six today and will spend some time reviewing them.

The Pilot Bill of Right has tied the hands of how the FAA does business and give power back to the airman. Its a good thing.

If you would like to contact me the best way is through my web site there is a hyper link with my email address on it. Just go to www.stacheair.com and click on the hyper link.

I will be returning home to Japan this coming Saturday.
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comanchepilot said:
Unless you are a student you are not required to carry a logbook . maintenance records are not also required to be available for inspection in a ramp check.

Nor are you required to answer ANY of his questions.

If I was ramp checked I'd cooperate to the point of answering questions related to FAA functions. Then I'd defer and contend I'm not comfortable answering. Simple things like how the day is or where I am going are fine unless it gets followed up with an aircraft/airman related question. Then s/he is done.

Nor are you required to present a W&B computation right then and there if you don't have it. You are required to know the aircraft is in compliance, not perform one before every flight.
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I want to be there to see what happens when you pull that with an Inspector. And to be a spectator at the hearing before the ALJ, too.
 
If the FAA inspector asks you to sign the PBR statement, what would be wrong with asking him to show you the FAR that requires it?
 
Ron Levy said:
I want to be there to see what happens when you pull that with an Inspector. And to be a spectator at the hearing before the ALJ, too.
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Which part would be the subject of an ALJ hearing, not having his logbook with him, not having the maintenance records with him, not answering questions, or not presenting a weight and balance computation?
 
Old Geek said:
If the FAA inspector asks you to sign the PBR statement, what would be wrong with asking him to show you the FAR that requires it?
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The PBoR statute requires the FAA to provide timely written notification. It does not place any mandates on pilots - certainly none requiring the pilot sign anything. The signature "requirement" appears to be an FAA invention designed to provide proof to a court (when the need arises) that they provided timely written notification per the statute. There are other ways (and probably better ways) they could establish proof that written notification was supplied. They are just being lazy in wanting a single mechanism to cover every scenario.
 
Jim Logajan said:
The PBoR statute requires the FAA to provide timely written notification. It does not place any mandates on pilots - certainly none requiring the pilot sign anything. The signature "requirement" appears to be an FAA invention designed to provide proof to a court (when the need arises) that they provided timely written notification per the statute. There are other ways (and probably better ways) they could establish proof that written notification was supplied. They are just being lazy in wanting a single mechanism to cover every scenario.
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This is not something spectacularly new or different. For example, signing acknowledgement of Privacy Act rights when dealing with Federal agencies, or HIPAA rights when visiting a physician, or signing a "Miranda waiver" when you elect not to have an attorney present while being questioned in custody by police have been standard practices for years. Congress says they have to advise you, and they are within their authority in creating the proof that you were advised. The alternative is them videotaping the reading of your PBOR rights to you, or something like that, and that would take a lot longer and be a much bigger pain than simply handing you the paper and you signing an acknowledgement that you read it. You want to get upset, get upset at Congress for creating the law, or the lawyers who sue over failure to document notification of Federal rights, not the FAA for doing what they are forced to do to show they're complying with it.
 
Ron Levy said:
I want to be there to see what happens when you pull that with an Inspector. And to be a spectator at the hearing before the ALJ, too.
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I just went thru a pretty extensive inspection of both my maintenance records and pilot certifications.

The inspectors were very courteous, but firm in their asking me to sign the PBR form. The sheet they handed me was the wrong one, I read it and told the inspector that I would not sign that one, he read it , and agreed I should not.
He then asked If they could enter the hangar and do the inspection. I told them they could. They then took digital pictures of my Pilots certificate, and noted the signature could not be seen, and asked me to re-sign it, which I did.

they then took pictures of all my maintenance records page by page. and then started to inspect the damage.

It was not until the next day I received an E-mail with the proper PBR form which I printed, signed and re-scaned then returned by E-mail to the inspector.

Investigating an accident has a different requirements than a ramp check but in either case you best have your records in order.

I would suggest that any pilot take digital pictures of all their pilots logs speciality the Tail dragger endorsements, etc. and store then on a remote device that can not be lost when your computer crashes.
 
Ron Levy said:
This is not something spectacularly new or different. For example, signing acknowledgement of Privacy Act rights when dealing with Federal agencies, or HIPAA rights when visiting a physician, or signing a "Miranda waiver" when you elect not to have an attorney present while being questioned in custody by police have been standard practices for years. Congress says they have to advise you, and they are within their authority in creating the proof that you were advised. The alternative is them videotaping the reading of your PBOR rights to you, or something like that, and that would take a lot longer and be a much bigger pain than simply handing you the paper and you signing an acknowledgement that you read it. You want to get upset, get upset at Congress for creating the law, or the lawyers who sue over failure to document notification of Federal rights, not the FAA for doing what they are forced to do to show they're complying with it.
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I disagree. A cop doesn't read me my Miranda rights if he stops me for rolling through a stop sign. Neither should an FAA inspector doing a routine check with no presumption of guilt or probable cause. It's good human behavior that situations escalate from a social interaction to an enforcement action in a predictable and respectful (to both parties) way. Shoving a document in my face to sign breaks the mutual respect in a damaging way.
 
My best advice to any pilot being ramp checked.

They have the right to ask for your certificate, don't tell them NO, simply comply with their requests.

I would not carry maintenance records in the aircraft in plane sight, If you must carry them place them in a container that does not look like a log book, such as your flight bag.

when an inspector asks to inspect the aircraft, you can tell them no, but I would not suggest that you tell them that. They do have means that will prevent you from flying it again with out jumping thru a bunch of hoops.

be as courteous as they are, answer their questions, and don't babble, what you say can be used against you.
 
Old Geek said:
I disagree. A cop doesn't read me my Miranda rights if he stops me for rolling through a stop sign. Neither should an FAA inspector doing a routine check with no presumption of guilt or probable cause. It's good human behavior that situations escalate from a social interaction to an enforcement action in a predictable and respectful (to both parties) way. Shoving a document in my face to sign breaks the mutual respect in a damaging way.
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The Form letter the FSDO asked me to sign did not say the FSDO must or would persue any enforcement actions, it only said they can.
 
comanchepilot said:
Unless you are a student you are not required to carry a logbook . maintenance records are not also required to be available for inspection in a ramp check.

Nor are you required to answer ANY of his questions.

If I was ramp checked I'd cooperate to the point of answering questions related to FAA functions. Then I'd defer and contend I'm not comfortable answering. Simple things like how the day is or where I am going are fine unless it gets followed up with an aircraft/airman related question. Then s/he is done.

Nor are you required to present a W&B computation right then and there if you don't have it. You are required to know the aircraft is in compliance, not perform one before every flight.

Next time, don't make 'funny' comments about not understanding all the little round dials, either. It's not a joke.
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That's an interesting attitude... be completely uncooperative with the FAA guy, do your best to act like you've got something to hide, but don't ever have a sense of humor. Gosh, I'll have to try that next time, I'm sure it will end WAY better.

(and I didn't' ask about "all the little round dials", either... I asked if I needed a license to fly. I had my student pilot cert within reach, and knew perfectly well that all of my paperwork ducks were lined up.)
 
Old Geek said:
I disagree. A cop doesn't read me my Miranda rights if he stops me for rolling through a stop sign.
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Agreed, but a cop doesn't take you into custody in that situation, either.

Neither should an FAA inspector doing a routine check with no presumption of guilt or probable cause.
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The PBOR is not, like the rights covered in Miranda warnings, limited to custodial situations. Thus, your analogy is not valid.

It's good human behavior that situations escalate from a social interaction to an enforcement action in a predictable and respectful (to both parties) way. Shoving a document in my face to sign breaks the mutual respect in a damaging way.
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Blame that on Senator Inhofe for running the PBOR through Congress, and all the lawyers who love to claim their client's rights were violated, not the FAA. Just as the police are forced to require a written waiver of Miranda rights when questioning a suspect in custody if the suspect chooses not to have an attorney present, the FAA is only doing what they have to do to be able to show they complied with the law if push comes to legal shove later, and the pilot involved claims the Inspector never informed him/her of his/her rights under the PBOR as they apply to the situation at hand and as the PBOR effectively requires the FAA to do.
 
Ron Levy said:
This is not something spectacularly new or different. For example, signing acknowledgement of Privacy Act rights when dealing with Federal agencies, or HIPAA rights when visiting a physician, or signing a "Miranda waiver" when you elect not to have an attorney present while being questioned in custody by police have been standard practices for years. Congress says they have to advise you, and they are within their authority in creating the proof that you were advised. The alternative is them videotaping the reading of your PBOR rights to you, or something like that, and that would take a lot longer and be a much bigger pain than simply handing you the paper and you signing an acknowledgement that you read it. You want to get upset, get upset at Congress for creating the law, or the lawyers who sue over failure to document notification of Federal rights, not the FAA for doing what they are forced to do to show they're complying with it.
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I don't sign anything until I've read it thoroughly. That could take a LONG time.
 
Old Geek said:
I disagree. A cop doesn't read me my Miranda rights if he stops me for rolling through a stop sign. Neither should an FAA inspector doing a routine check with no presumption of guilt or probable cause. It's good human behavior that situations escalate from a social interaction to an enforcement action in a predictable and respectful (to both parties) way. Shoving a document in my face to sign breaks the mutual respect in a damaging way.
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Just tell him you have to read it before you sign it, start reading it out loud while slowly and painfully stuttering through every sentence in your best forest gump impression voice.
 
Ron Levy said:
Congress says they have to advise you, and they are within their authority in creating the proof that you were advised.
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I'm not sure where you get the idea that the FAA is within its authority to force you to sign anything during a ramp check. What precisely do you believe the FAA is allowed to do if a pilot is ramp checked and the pilot declines to sign a PBR notification? Certificate action? A fine? Something else?
 
Jim Logajan said:
I'm not sure where you get the idea that the FAA is within its authority to force you to sign anything during a ramp check. What precisely do you believe the FAA is allowed to do if a pilot is ramp checked and the pilot declines to sign a PBR notification? Certificate action? A fine? Something else?
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Then, I suspect, they have to get a witness or a video camera or the like and read it to you line by line. You want to waste your time as well as theirs like that, feel free -- they get paid the same for their day's work. IOW, like the Army, they can't make you do anything, but they can make you wish you had done it.
 
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