Ramp Check

BillTIZ

BillTIZ

Final Approach
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Easy

Standing by the glider with a "student", an ATP, former Glider CFI about 15 yrs out of gliders getting recurrent, and another CFIG.

Get a radio call from our tow pilot on the other side of the airport, a visitor is on the way over. Hmm.. Maybe an intro ride to give? No, it's the FSDO on a ramp check.

So introductions, names, drop the "I'm a FAASTeam Lead Rep working with, xx, and he says, great as a FAASTeam member, I'm sure everything is in order, "who's the PIC?", well, as the IP that would be me. So he asks for my certificate, sees me digging it out of my wallet and justs ask me to read the number to him.

I mention it would take a screw driver to retrieve the glider paperwork behind the clear plastic. He looks at the airworthy in the plastic and says that's good. This particular glider, no POH required in the aircraft and I provide some instruction as to why and show the required placards in place as required by the TCDS. He notes the N-number and closes his notebook.

A little chat about the airport, training plans and he sees a helo land and head to the fuel pumps. He says so long as he heads for the helo.

And he mentioned he gets a double bonus check for finding a FAASTeam member in action at the airport working with two instructors.

Neither the student CFI or other CFI had seen a ramp check nor knew what to expect. Maybe I should run some mock ramp checks in the flying club.
 
Quick, someone call in a plane crash down the road!!!
 
So easy indeed that I wonder what the point was?
Did anything get checked that typically appears in an NTSB accident report probable cause?
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
Just because some bureaucrat writes a bill "allowing" it shouldn't mean the constitution suddenly doesn't apply.
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:nonod: :rolleyes2:



Please go do some research on administrative law and try to understand the differences between it, civil law and criminal law. There are several threads here you can search and read and hopefully gain a better understanding.

Here is just a small tidbit grabbed off the internet:

Criminal law determines what acts you can be imprisoned or fined for by the government. Most criminal acts require some sort of bad or evil intent. If it's a criminal law, it will be enforced by a prosecutor working for the state or federal government.

Civil law is mostly common law and case law (not statutes) that determine rights as between citizens. These are the laws that determine who can sue whom for damages when one person wrongs another. The government does not get involved, except to the extent that it provides courts and judges.

Administrative law determines what government agencies may do. The state or federal government has law making power, some of which they can delegate to agencies in setting the particulars. The president and governors can do this to some extent too. Admin. law tells us what can be delegated to agencies, what those agencies can do, and how you as a private citizen can challenge agency decisions through the courts.

Constitutional law examines the federal or state constitutions. Constitutions set limits on what the government can do. Laws that exceed those limits are unconstitutional and can be altered or struck down by the courts.
 
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Ramp checks at small airports.

Rump checks at large.

The new America.

:thumbsup:
 
Everyone has to make a living. As long as there is respect on both sides ,the ramp check should be no problem.
 
First let me plant my flag. What they are doing is unconstitutional, period. I don't care what some scumbag lawyer who got appointed as a judge for supporting another scumbag lawyer's election as governor says - it is unconstitutional.

Ok (whew) got that off my chest. Now let us get to the point. And the point is that this kind of paper shuffling produces zero results in improving public safety. It is the bureaucratic equivalent of masturbation. The 'inspector' gets off and you get dripped on. The comment about him getting "double points" is the admission that this is quota system no different than a traffic officer getting paid vacation time for having written the most traffic citations for the quarter. It is corruption - and RICO charges should be filed against them.
 
Dr. O said:
First let me plant my flag. What they are doing is unconstitutional, period. I don't care what some scumbag lawyer who got appointed as a judge for supporting another scumbag lawyer's election as governor says - it is unconstitutional.

Ok (whew) got that off my chest. Now let us get to the point. And the point is that this kind of paper shuffling produces zero results in improving public safety. It is the bureaucratic equivalent of masturbation. The 'inspector' gets off and you get dripped on. The comment about him getting "double points" is the admission that this is quota system no different than a traffic officer getting paid vacation time for having written the most traffic citations for the quarter. It is corruption - and RICO charges should be filed against them.
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Is Sean Hannity or Glenn Beck your favorite law professor?
 
Dr. O said:
The comment about him getting "double points" is the admission that this is quota system no different than a traffic officer getting paid vacation time for having written the most traffic citations for the quarter. It is corruption - and RICO charges should be filed against them.
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Apparently sarcasm is still at pattern altitude for you.
 
I really don't know the specific legality of the ramp check, but in an encounter such as the OP's, I don't have an issue with them.
 
Some of the people who are allowed to ask pilots for identification aren't nearly so polite. Nice to hear of a ramp check that was done in a civilized manner.
 
I've been ramp checked once, it was straightforward and simple.

That said, it is a waste of time and resources.
 
Shepherd said:
Some of the people who are allowed to ask pilots for identification aren't nearly so polite. Nice to hear of a ramp check that was done in a civilized manner.
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A routine encounter with the FAA is not going to bother me. I don't ultimately know what the point of ramp checks is, but the individual is likely to be a relatively polite grown-up.

It's the "other" agencies that are trouble -- when the tax assessor starts poking around the tarmac at night, or when the sheriff meets you at the runway exit with lights flashing.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Please go do some research on administrative law and try to understand the differences between it, civil law and criminal law. There are several threads here you can search and read and hopefully gain a better understanding.
Click to expand...

I think the point may have been that administrative law does not trump the Constitution, which is a valid point.

With that said, I'm struggling to understand how the ramp check as described is a violation of the Fourth Amendment. Seems to me there are far more egregious violations of the Constitution originating in Washington that warrant more outrage than a rather benign FAA ramp check.


JKG
 
JGoodish said:
I think the point may have been that administrative law does not trump the Constitution, which is a valid point.

With that said, I'm struggling to understand how the ramp check as described is a violation of the Fourth Amendment. Seems to me there are far more egregious violations of the Constitution originating in Washington that warrant more outrage than a rather benign FAA ramp check.


JKG
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Yup....
 
JGoodish said:
I think the point may have been that administrative law does not trump the Constitution, which is a valid point.

With that said, I'm struggling to understand how the ramp check as described is a violation of the Fourth Amendment. Seems to me there are far more egregious violations of the Constitution originating in Washington that warrant more outrage than a rather benign FAA ramp check.


JKG
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Here's one explanation: http://www.nata.aero/data/files/abj/FAA_Comes_Knocking1.pdf (page three of PDF, page number 17 of the magazine).

Basically it states that the FAA inspector can't force his way into your plane if you decline to let him. Of course, should you choose that path he can likely get an Administrative Inspection Warrant from a judge, and you may face administrative penalties from the FAA for impeding their work.

While we each have our own opinions as to whether that's appropriate (and that would be a SZ topic for sure), the law is not going to be on your side if you declare it to be a 4th Amendment violation to be ramp checked. It's also nothing new and hardly a sign of the apocalypse. As you said, there are much bigger problems to be worried about than this.
 
Need to see more Ramp Check's on Experimental aircraft. Nearly 15 percent of general aviation aircraft (33,000 of 224,000) in the U.S. fall into the amateur-built experimental classification, the NTSB says. And that group exhibits "accident rates greater than those of other comparable segments of GA.:nono:
 
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§44709. Amendments, modifications, suspensions, and revocations of certificates
(a) Reinspection and Reexamination.—The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may reinspect at any time a civil aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, design organization, production certificate holder, air navigation facility, or air agency, or reexamine an airman holding a certificate issued under section 44703 of this title.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Administrative law.
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Exactly. But a ramp check is still a mini shake down. You are not under arrest. You may walk away at any point. You are not required to answer any questions. Especially questions that might incriminate yourself. You are required to show your certificate and medical if so requested. You are required to show the airworthiness certificate and other required paper work. If you do not want to talk to the fed, then don't. I just defer all questions to my chief pilot. At the end of the conversation, if any, I'll ask the fed if (s)he finds the aircraft unairworthy.

I always let the fed set the tone. If (s)he comes up to me and treats me with respect, I do the same. I have had a couple that were real a holes and I treated them that way, then called their boss.

Most ramp checks I have gone through were just showing certificate and medical, some light conversation of the current weather, and that's it. One ramp check in Kantishna, AK was pretty quick. There were three planes, he checked everyone's certificate, wrote down plane numbers, and was on his way. Kantishna is on the very end of the 96 mile long Denali National Park Road. He had his grandkids with him. The park road is closed to public traffic. He used his credentials to take his grandkids site seeing in the park. Then used us as his reason to justify his trip and his job.

The last ramp check I went through, the fed announced he wanted to get in my plane and inspect it. I was in the FBO about to wash my hands and face. I told him we just delivered a patient that had meningitis and he will need to suit up first. He looked at the plane through the FBO window and said everything looks good. He wouldn't even touch my certificate and medical. :lol::lol:
 
timwinters said:
Ramp checks at small airports.

Rump checks at large.

The new America.

:thumbsup:
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I've been ramp checked 3 times. All were at small airports. Two were in the 1980s, so the new America has been around for awhile.
 
I've had one ramp check in 30 years of flying. The airplane was on the ramp in front of the FBO and I was still at home! The FBO called me and said the inspector wanted to speak with me. He noted a screw that was loose and a patch that on the couwling that had a hole in it. Very polite, I told him I was aware of the patch, and would have the loose screw addressed. When I got to the airport 20 minutes later, he approached me, showed me what he was talking about and gave me his card. It could not have been a more pleasant experience. I have dealt with him on my N number changes as well, great guy, even had another inspector deliver a new airoworthiness certificate to me a couple weeks ago! :D
 
John's story reminds me of a similar encounter. Not a ramp check, but while at the avionics shop an inspector was looking at the shop, ended up looking over the 310. He did find one or two legitimate issues that I had addressed, but mostly he learned a few things about 310s and I told him about my AoA indicator which he'd been thinking about for his Citabria.

He started off polite but I think more of the attitude that my plane was unairworthy, confusing ACF-50 for smoking rivets. After we got through a couple of his initial concerns and got on to other discussions it was a normal conversation with a pilot.
 
Dr. O said:
First let me plant my flag. What they are doing is unconstitutional, period. I don't care what some scumbag lawyer who got appointed as a judge for supporting another scumbag lawyer's election as governor says - it is unconstitutional.

Ok (whew) got that off my chest. Now let us get to the point. And the point is that this kind of paper shuffling produces zero results in improving public safety. It is the bureaucratic equivalent of masturbation. The 'inspector' gets off and you get dripped on. The comment about him getting "double points" is the admission that this is quota system no different than a traffic officer getting paid vacation time for having written the most traffic citations for the quarter. It is corruption - and RICO charges should be filed against them.
Click to expand...

There is militias on the Texas border this week that are missing you.
 
How are you guys having "multiple ramp checks" over the years. I think I have had one in 25 years and that was a non-event.
 
B350ATP said:
How are you guys having "multiple ramp checks" over the years. I think I have had one in 25 years and that was a non-event.
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Right place, wrong time? All my ramp checks were pt 135. I never had a pt 91 ramp check.

I had a ramp check in Alaska one time that turned into a police report.
 
Although I understand the fear of ramp checks, I think they are part of flying, just like a license check while driving. Do I think they are useful? not really, will they find unlicensed pilots? probably not. Unairworthy airplanes? I bet if they dig enough, almost any aircraft can be deemed unairworthy. :dunno:
 
B350ATP said:
How are you guys having "multiple ramp checks" over the years. I think I have had one in 25 years and that was a non-event.
Click to expand...

Just comes down to place and time. So in the above situation, I knew the feds would be checking out the shop the day I was there, so I figured they'd talk to me.
 
I haven't been ramp-checked in over 1,500 hours. I have had a couple of run-ins with the TSA at smaller airports and learned that if you tell them to go f*** themselves, the local cops WILL show up...quickly.

And then it becomes a real Barney Fife convention.

It's all quite entertaining actually...if you have the extra time to spend...

I'm eagerly awaiting the day that DEA has the local cops come out to meet me when I land (if I have time to play). That should be more fun yet (if I have time to play).
 
I got ramp checked once. they brought out the dogs, and then had the nerve to tell me my plane wasn't airworthy. some ramp checks are good, but sometimes you get the FAA nazi.

20100428_021500_PLANE02_400.jpg
 
^^^^ heh heh!

I've only had one ramp check - the inspector came up to the airplane after the passengers walked into the FBO with my FO. Fortunately the Fed was a guy I knew pretty well, and according to him, it was just a box checking thing. He checked the typical AROW stuff, my certificate and medical, and since this was a 135 flight, he also looked over my manuals and checklists to make sure they were all up to date.

The only thing he had to say was, "Well man, it all looks good. We need to go get a beer sometime. Oh, and your FO looks like an a@@hole, want me to go shake him down?" :D
 
I can see why your plane is not airworthy. It doesn't have a rudder...:lol::lol:
 
Zeldman said:
Right place, wrong time? All my ramp checks were pt 135. I never had a pt 91 ramp check.

I had a ramp check in Alaska one time that turned into a police report.
Click to expand...

Got an interesting story that goes with that? :confused:
 
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