Questions regarding pre-buys

[Slimbizza]

Is it typical for most A&P's to give discrepancies with no recommendation or dumbed down explanation? I'm not a mechanic, and I understand Pre-buys are providing facts, but I find interpreting the results hard. What is serious? What isn't serious?

For example, right inboard wing skin is wrinkled along with 2 patches. Rear bulkhead has small wrinkle. Okay, is that a structural issue, is it a deal breaker, or simply normal for thin aluminum skin? When asked, I find getting clear cut recommendations difficult.

This is my first airplane, and I'm learning alot, but I'm finding it overwhelming to some extent.

Sorry if my question is naive.

Thanks!

 

[AvNavCom]

At a minimum, you should be asking them to break things down by Airworthiness issues and non-Airworthiness findings. If they're willing to further break down their findings into recommendations for things which need to be addressed in the short-term vs. cosmetic/long-term items, that's a nice bonus. Ideally, you'd have your own mechanic look at these findings (if they didn't do the pre-buy) and explain what needs to be fixed in order to get an annual signed off. Anything related to airworthiness would need to get fixed for an Annual sign-off. Everything else is negotiable to some extent.

And yes, airplane ownership has a very steep learning curve at the beginning.

 

[Dana]

For example, right inboard wing skin is wrinkled along with 2 patches. Rear bulkhead has small wrinkle. Okay, is that a structural issue, is it a deal breaker, or simply normal for thin aluminum skin? When asked, I find getting clear cut recommendations difficult.

Hard to say without knowing more, but I'd say that it's not necessarily a deal breaker, but it's absolutely something that requires further investigation, both of the aircraft itself and the logs. Sounds it was landed hard at least once and repaired. The question is, "Were the repairs performed properly?" Sometimes (especially in the case of an older or obscure aircraft type) it needs to be evaluated by somebody who specializes in the type.

Did you ask the A&P what he thinks about the issues? I had a prebuy done when I bought my first airplane. It had minor issues and some old major repairs. The A&P explained the issues, e.g., "This was broken but it was repaired properly;" "This is just cosmetic," and "This isn't a big deal now but you'll have to deal with it eventually."

 

[TCABM]

Ah, the good old first airplane purchase. As a rule, you should already have your maintenance and inspection relationship established. That person should get a look at the plane and records up front and can give you some advice. Then, my recommendation is to not do a pre-buy.

Instead, make the purchase contingent on an annual inspection conducted by an IA that has not worked on the plane before and is agreeable to the buyer. Seller agrees the results are releasable to the buyer while in escrow.

Things that are airworthiness related (IA can’t sign the inspection off) the seller pays for.

Discrepancies/deferred items are the buyers responsibility.

That does nothing to reduce the risk of an engine catastrophe on day 1 of ownership, but it gives you a standard list of things inspected.

 

[Bell206]

Is it typical for most A&P's to give discrepancies with no recommendation or dumbed down explanation?

Yes.

I understand Pre-buys are providing facts,

Maybe. Pre-buys have no regulatory authority. So at best the results are merely a general list of opinions from the person performing the pre-buy. Whether those opinions can be considered "facts" depends on the context of the pre-buy and how it is performed.

This is my first airplane, and I'm learning alot, but I'm finding it overwhelming to some extent.

My standing recommendation for many years is to select your aircraft mechanic before you select your aircraft. And especially your 1st aircraft. Once selected, your mechanic can help you understand what you are getting into, plus he will be the only person who can make an objective determination of that aircraft as he will be the one to perform and sign off its first annual inspection. Make sense?

 

[Magman]

It seems most of these surveys start with “How much for a PPB”?

An agreement is reached which really dictates the hours to be spent.

The Buyer should dictate the scope of the inspection and not make

recommendations whether to purchase. The Inspecting Agency should

review Records and inspect the aircraft within the time frame agreed on.

A that time a List is produced to determine financial impact. In some cases

it can be difficult to determine this accurately as outside agencies may

need to be contacted and/ or parts cost investigated.

I agree with Bell as far as having YOUR Tech involved. It may be they only

review Records and possible repairs but they really have to make

determinations prior to a signature. Some of this is easier in 2026

by using phones to copy Records and pix/ vids for Repairs.

The Buyer would do well to verify the Tech is familiar with the type of

aircraft. However; understanding a PB is not a guarantee is critical.

 

[frfly172]

I purchased a twin once ,I had my mechanic talk to the mechanic that was going to do the pre buy,by phone ,worked out fine. Cost a little more but was worth it,no surprises.

 

[Lama1125]

When I do a prebuy, I charge per hour. There's no set time as I can get really in depth or I can find an absolute deal breaker at the start. It's common for shops to provide a list of issues and repairs to be performed to the customer once complete. I will send the info to them on email and tell them to call me once they get a chance and we can go over it all. It really helps them to fully understand what I've found and helps build that trust you have to have with the mechanic. Sometimes I allow the potential buyer to sit in on the inspection to go over things in real time, but that doesn't always happen due to scheduling. I'll also take pictures of anything major, so they also have evidence for negotiation. I know not all shops do this, but I'd like to think a fair amount do. There is a lot of "shops" out there if you get my drift... best thing to do is call around and get real reviews from people in your area. It will save you the headache and money in the long run.

 

[3393RP]

And yes, airplane ownership has a very steep learning curve at the beginning.

Ye$ it doe$.

Just kidding. Sort of.

 

[AvNavCom]

Ye$ it doe$.

Just kidding. Sort of.

Ha! One of the single biggest lies would-be plane owners tell themselves is that "I'll save money". No, no you won't. For the money I've spent on my own plane, I could have probably rented my way to an ATP by now.

 

[Bell206]

One of the single biggest lies would-be plane owners tell themselves is that "I'll save money". No, no you won't.

I've found it depends on the owner, first, and the circumstance, second. I made a few nickels assisting those type owners save a ton of money over that time period. So with the right mindset and opportunity one can save definitely save money but it takes a commitment to do so.

 

[bonefishpete]

I purchased a twin once ,I had my mechanic talk to the mechanic that was going to do the pre buy,by phone ,worked out fine. Cost a little more but was worth it,no surprises.

This is probably best if plane is across the country. I would probably do a pre buy annual at the same time if pre buy passed.
Had a pre buy done on a plane that missed quite a lot.

 

[Half Fast]

I can't say what's "typical," but on the pre-buy for my Beech I asked the shop to note which items were airworthiness issues and for an estimate to repair each item. I received a very understandable itemized list.

But somehow they missed altogether that the electric trim wasn't working, the fuel guages weren't working, and the pitot heat wasn't working. All of which I discovered doing the first pre-flight after purchase.

LESSON - get the shop to give you a list of everything they inspected, not just their list of discrepancies.

A pre-buy is a good idea, but its effectiveness is not a given.

 

[Hengelo]

Wow that's clever. Would you then ferry the aircraft to the inspecting IA or vice versa?

Instead, make the purchase contingent on an annual inspection conducted by an IA that has not worked on the plane before and is agreeable to the buyer. Seller agrees the results are releasable to the buyer while in escrow.

Things that are airworthiness related (IA can’t sign the inspection off) the seller pays for.

Discrepancies/deferred items are the buyers responsibility.

 

[bbchien]

I sure hope you have negotiated a post crash price on this one. Wrikled wing skin = bent spar. Creased rear bulkhead usually = tailstrike. Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, this a/c has some serious damage.

Since there are many fish in the sea, the low price being offered reflects significant damage in it's history......structural repairs such as you posted can exceed the price of the airframe....as they open it up and find other stuff.

 

[Bell206]

Wrikled wing skin = bent spar. Creased rear bulkhead usually = tailstrike. Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, this a/c has some serious damage.

Not necessarily. Over time aluminum will wrinkle, oil-can, or distort from normal ops. For example, a lot of Cessna float plane wings are "wrinkled" on the top skins but solid underneath. But that doesn't mean there should not be any further checking involved if you feel its an issue.

 

[Magman]

PB’s vary in scope as should be dictated by the Buyer; not the Tech. It can

be as easy as checking the screen/ filter and a cursory check of the

airframe. Most seem to start with “ How much $$”?


So let’s say the PB Tech finds an issue similar to the preceding and reports

it to the Buyer. At that point it’s really up to the Buyer to decide how much

time and $$ to expend determining just what a repair entails. Or just

walk away. Anyone buying aircraft parts is very foolish to guess at a price.

There can be BIG surprises over little items.


If a potential Buyer bails out after paying for a PB; just who do the results

of that assessment belong to,other than the person that paid for it?

I’ve had Sellers become upset when subsequent “Buyers” want to results

free and I direct them to the first “ Buyer”. IMHO I have no interest

in doing so for 2 reasons.

1. Dealing with subsequent “Buyers” can involve quite a bit of time.

2. In the event of an issue arising later some of the “ freeby- folks”

may threaten action for a poor PB. It’s not like an Annual with

a minimum standard.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Not necessarily. Over time aluminum will wrinkle, oil-can, or distort from normal ops. For example, a lot of Cessna float plane wings are "wrinkled" on the top skins but solid underneath. But that doesn't mean there should not be any further checking involved if you feel its an issue.

Speaking of oil canning, blow this picture up to see what oil canning in flight looks like

 

[AvNavCom]

I've found it depends on the owner, first, and the circumstance, second. I made a few nickels assisting those type owners save a ton of money over that time period. So with the right mindset and opportunity one can save definitely save money but it takes a commitment to do so.

I don't doubt you, but I wonder on a per-hour basis what the average owner pays over the course of their ownership, vs rental costs for a similarly equipped aircraft. Granted, the purchase cost is probably recoverable and I will freely admit that a lot of my dollars are upgrades that the aircraft would have flown perfectly well without. That said, nasty surprises abound. I had a very, very thorough pre-buy performed on my aircraft with fairly low hours, a mid-time engine, frequently flown by a private group of a few owners, and meticulous maintenance. Despite this, I found myself on the hook for a complete engine overhaul less than a year into ownership due to a cam not being airworthy.

Still, I acknowledge that if pure hours-building is the goal and droning along in a Cessna 150 is acceptable, it can be a reasonably economical option. My personal issue is a bad combination of "while we're at it" and "wouldn't it be nicer/safer..."

 

[Magman]

Something like “ when your shoes are off is a good time to change socks!”

Right now I only work with owners that want to get involved

This excludes those that just want to write the check.

There is lot they can do even w/o getting hands dirty.

This reduces cost of ownership slightly but pays big dividends in

reducing downtime.

 

[Bell206]

I don't doubt you, but I wonder on a per-hour basis what the average owner pays over the course of their ownership, vs rental costs for a similarly equipped aircraft.

Its not just a straight hour vs hour type comparison. In my experience, when an owner becomes engaged at that level, the overall condition of the aircraft improves as he now has control of certain costs he didn't have prior. So when the aircraft is maintained at a higher level regularly, the downstream mx costs tend to decrease over time. And that better condition tends to increase the value of the aircraft which is not an option with a rental. So in general, when you start with two worn out 172s, one a rental and one purchased, and you have a zealous owner who efficiently and economically repairs the wear and tear on his 172, at the time both pilots complete their training, etc. and want to walk away from both aircraft you'll find the owner will walk away with more money in his pocket or a lot more especially if he sells his 172. Its a very broad example, but is based on real life examples I've seen.

 

[TCABM]

Wow that's clever. Would you then ferry the aircraft to the inspecting IA or vice versa?

Depends on what’s agreed to; this isn’t rocket surgery we’re talking about.

For the 182 we just bought, a broker has physical possession and he just taxi’d it across the ramp to a Cessna Service Center that had no relationship with either us or the seller.

Seller paid for the annual, since it was expiring anyways; there were a couple of discrepancies we agreed to pay for and left the rest open. Seller had a couple of airworthiness issues to fix and paid for that stuff.

 

[Kristin]

As you have discovered, there are as many approaches to a pre-buy assessment as their are people giving the opinion. I will only add one point, if you are look at a complex, vintage aircraft, e.g. Mooney, Bonanza, Comanche, C-210, get someone who is genuinely an expert in the airframe you are interested in. Don't take the mechanic's word for it, find the community online, or wherever, and get them to point you at someone.