Question for Major/Regional Pilots...

T

tinygiant

Pre-Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
66
Display Name
Display name:
tinygiant
All,

Looking at retirement in the next year and I need another job. My apps are in for FDX/SWA/UAL/DAL/AA. I have all the flying pre-reqs, but I'm currently sitting in a non-flying job (i.e. I have currency via GA/CAP flying, but not going to get the 100 hours that places like UAL desire). I'm going to keep pressing for the majors, but assuming that I end up spending a little while building time after retirement so I look prettier for the majors interview boards, what options should I be looking at to remain competitive? Regional 121? 135? Local/long haul cargo/feeders? I have no ground truth, but I'm told (rumor mill) that some majors prefer Regional 121 to 135 or other types of flying. I'm willing to absorb any insight you're willing to provide. Not trying to create a flying type argument, just looking for insight from those that have been there.

Thanks!
 
tinygiant said:
Not trying to create a flying type argument, just looking for insight from those that have been there.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Here we go! Again....:D

Not directed at you, you'll see when they start giving advice and opinions. Check Airline Pilot Central Major and Regional boards and you'll get good advice/info there. Good luck!
 
Yep, I'm looking over there. Nothing against them, but that seems to be a pretty jaded group. I didn't think the question would get a fair shake over there. I've read a few of the threads concerning this and it seems all the majors pilots want to bash the regionals and all regionals blame the majors without actually addressing the question. There's still a great bastion of knowledge over there concerning facts and figures, but as soon as opinion is requested ... hold on! I know that's relatively true just about everywhere, but I was hoping to get a better answer since the airline pilots here are more likely grounded in GA and other pursuits.
 
As long as you can separate the wheat from the chaff here, you will do ok. Some will give good advice, most will not.

It would help to know a little more about your background.
 
Greg,

Sure thing. 2000ish hour fighter guy. ATP/AMEL & ASEL. 20 years active. O-5. Last official military flight = Feb 2015. Expected retirement = early 2017.
 
tinygiant said:
Sure thing. 2000ish hour fighter guy. ATP/AMEL & ASEL. 20 years active. O-5. Last official military flight = Feb 2015. Expected retirement = early 2017.
Click to expand...

With your background, I'd just go to a regional. I think you'll get a call from one of the companies on your list before you know it. A good buddy from my new hire class was pretty much exactly in your position, went to ExpressJet for the 121 time, and got called in just a couple of months. He was barely off of IOE.
 
tinygiant said:
Yep, I'm looking over there. Nothing against them, but that seems to be a pretty jaded group. I didn't think the question would get a fair shake over there.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with getting additional viewpoints. Unfortunately, the vast majority of posters here are not 121 pilots and for some reason many have a chip on their shoulders thinking that 121 flying is somehow beneath them.

Nothing wrong with wanting to fly 121 if that's what your heart desires. IMO, it won't hurt to apply directly to the majors, but I'd have a backup plan/be prepared to take a job at a regional to get your foot in the door. Good news is that the flow through prospects are improving.

On the downside, you are competing with an increasing number of military guys. When hiring was bad, a larger number of military pilots were staying on active duty (better pay/job security). Now that more majors are hiring, more military pilots are jumping ship before retirement to take those jobs.

Good luck to you! I hope to be flying 121 in a year or so, but I'll have to go the regional route- just don't have the experience to go straight to a major.
 
Not a lot of info to go on but I'm thinking you'd have a hard time getting on with a major at the moment. The regionals on the other hand are having a hard time finding people that meet the 1500 hour requirements that are willing to fly for really lousy pay. I believe Republic just changed their first year pay to around 40K.
 
tinygiant said:
Greg,

Sure thing. 2000ish hour fighter guy. ATP/AMEL & ASEL. 20 years active. O-5. Last official military flight = Feb 2015. Expected retirement = early 2017.
Click to expand...

Sorry I missed this. I should say that you are competing with more military guys, many who have more recent experience. That said, I still don't think it hurst to apply.
 
If you do end up going with a regional, do your research and try to find one without a restrictive training contract/indentured servitude situation so you are more flexible if a major offers you a job.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Sorry I missed this. I should say that you are competing with more military guys, many who have more recent experience. That said, I still don't think it hurst to apply.
Click to expand...

That's why I think a little time at a regional to check the recency box will get him near the top of the stack. He seems pretty in line with a lot of the fighter guys I'm seeing hired right now. At the moment, if we're not hiring a military guy, it's a flow.
 
Here's my $0.02...

I'd apply everywhere. Majors, regionals, cargo, ACMI, fractionals, etc. Go to every interview you can... if nothing else, just for the interview practice. Take whatever flying job is offered to you. Not sitting in a cockpit for 2 years will sting, but it's not the kiss of death. You'll probably have to hit a stepping stone before getting to the DAL/UAL/AAL/FDXs, but a lot of guys do.

If you're on APC, search out "AlbieF15". He's a fellow FDXer and runs a Interview Prep company that is highly regarded and has an excellent track record. His company is Emerald Coast Interview Consulting (I am not affiliated with them in any way). He seems to have his fingers firmly pressed on the pulse of airline hiring. Pay for his service, it'll be worth it. Read his posts on APC, lots of free wisdom there.

My vision for you is that you'll get snatched up by a regional, do a touch and go there for currency, and end up at a major before too long. The monthly dough from Uncle Sugar should soften the blow of that first year or two...
 
Sluggo63 said:
If you're on APC, search out "AlbieF15".
Click to expand...

Second this. Albie's good people. He's also on ProPilotWorld. It's a great place. You have to pay a yearly fee, but that cuts down on a lot of riffraff and folks seem a little less jaded there.
 
tinygiant said:
Greg,

Sure thing. 2000ish hour fighter guy. ATP/AMEL & ASEL. 20 years active. O-5. Last official military flight = Feb 2015. Expected retirement = early 2017.
Click to expand...

You're in dude. If you hear nothing from the Majors because of currency you may as well get some 121 experience with the Regionals. I would think flying for a Regional affiliated with a Major (ie ExpressJet w/ Delta & United) would be helpful. I'm retired from ExpressJet (ASA) and you can't beat their training department. Movement however is stagnate as all the new flying is going to SkyWest (SkyWest Inc owns ExpressJet & SkyWest). Endeavor also tied into Delta, who I think actually own Endeavor.

By the time you retire in 2017 a lot can change however. I'm sure you have some buddies at the Majors, start networking now. Good luck!
 
mscard88 said:
Movement however is stagnate as all the new flying is going to SkyWest (SkyWest Inc owns ExpressJet & SkyWest).
Click to expand...
Out of curiosity, if things at ExpressJet are stagnant, why do I keep getting their cards in the mail saying they are coming to a town near me to interview?
 
Hell I got one and I'm retired from there! Dunno man. :dunno:
Just from what I hear from friends there and boards like APC.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for all the viewpoints so far. I've already hooked up with ECIC and completed their interview prep. Although I'll likely apply at more places in the near future, this is the second place I've heard that I should expect to gain experience and currency at a regional in order to secure the call from a major because of time out of the cockpit. Any opinions on SkyWest?
 
I think you're light on experience for a major. Military is good, but numbers a bit low. Do regional for a year or two, build up time and 121, and you will be a shoe in two years from retirement.
 
tinygiant said:
Any opinions on SkyWest?
Click to expand...

They're hiring.

We've got at least one POA member who did a recent career change (gave up being a lawyer) and is now flying for them. Seems to be enjoying it and has a long running thread about his experience. A friend of mine is also working there and seems to be enjoying it.
 
Kritchlow said:
I think you're light on experience for a major. Military is good, but numbers a bit low. Do regional for a year or two, build up time and 121, and you will be a shoe in two years from retirement.
Click to expand...
I don't know. For a tactical guy, he's probably right on.

I'm not going to argue the merits of what I'm about to say, because there are wildly differing opinions on it, but most majors give military fighter/trainer time a "multiple" to normalize it to the military "heavy" pilots.

The thinking is that what a Tanker/Strat Air guy does in 4-6 hours (takeoff, mission, transition work, land) is what a Fighter guy does in a 1.3. Therefore, a fighter guy coming out with 2,000 hours probably has the same amount of 'sorties' than a heavy guy coming out with 4,000 hours.

2,000 might be a little low for a 20 year O-5, but I'm sure there were a few staff tours in that, and probably some leadership positions where there wasn't much flying, but I think the biggest issue for the OP is going to be the recency of experience, not TT.
 
121 Cargo guy. You didn't mention my company. Ask yourself a few questions.
1. Do you want to FLY or do you need to be called Colonel? At my company, the structure is exactly like the military. Management and Line Pilots and the two NEVER cross. I a. In my 28 the year and in that time not ONE line Captain has given up their seniority number to go into "management". A few first officers have but mainly the backstabbing butt kissers or the retired colonel that couldn't give up the "command".
2. At most majors IF you can be hired, you most likely will never move up the seniority list to Captain. Can you accept that?

Jaded? Sir, if you had been treated the way most of us have you would be jaded too. How can you tell if management is lying? Their lips are moving.
I go to work, do my job with my fellow line pilots and ignore most of the drivel coming from the experts. We have one management check pilot that was a 135 driver in the AF and never made AC Commander, got out and went to the regionals and never made Captain, came to my company and was immediately made a check pilot on the MD11 and doing international checks.....we usually have to teach them how it really works.

We have Blue Angels, Thunderbirds, AF1, SR71. F117 test pilots etc. so we have a few guys that know how to fly but because they aren't management, their suggestions are not needed.
Yup, jaded.
 
Kritchlow said:
I think you're light on experience for a major. Military is good, but numbers a bit low. Do regional for a year or two, build up time and 121, and you will be a shoe in two years from retirement.
Click to expand...

Yep. That's the AF nowadays. Lots of non-flying years interspersed with the good years.
 
MD11Pilot,

Do you recommend your company? I've only applied to the majors so far because their timeline is the longest based on my research. Still looking to reach out to other companies, but doesn't sound like you're very happy there. If you have any info you're willing to, or would rather, share privately, please PM me. Always want to get all viewpoints.
 
tinygiant said:
MD11Pilot,

Do you recommend your company?
Click to expand...
I'm guessing he's a UPS guy.

MD11Pilot said:
At my company, the structure is exactly like the military. Management and Line Pilots and the two NEVER cross.
Click to expand...
Really? I don't know what you mean by military 'management' but from my experience, the military management/line pilot crosses very often until you get higher than the sq/cc level. Flight cc's and sq/cc's often "fly the line," go on trips with the crew dogs and try to keep one hand in what the "line pilots" are going through. Go up to group or wing staff, and all bets are off...
 
I will PM. You later but yes I would recommend for one reason mainly.
Average of 1.4 billion per quarter profit. I am blessed to be there but I am near the end of my career (waiting on the latest contract to be settled but we have only been negotiating for five years) and I am hanging it up.

Will contact you later today.


tinygiant said:
MD11Pilot,

Do you recommend your company? I've only applied to the majors so far because their timeline is the longest based on my research. Still looking to reach out to other companies, but doesn't sound like you're very happy there. If you have any info you're willing to, or would rather, share privately, please PM me. Always want to get all viewpoints.
Click to expand...
 
MD11Pilot said:
2. At most majors IF you can be hired, you most likely will never move up the seniority list to Captain. Can you accept that?

QUOTE]

That is changing at the majors, and now. Great numbers of retirements coming up for the next 10 or more years. Seems Delta FOs are upgrading, don't know at what year but perhaps you could ask or read that over on APC, or maybe a DAL pilot will chime in. From what I read and hear American has the greatest number of retirements coming up, so things ought to move quickly there.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
tinygiant said:
All,

Looking at retirement in the next year and I need another job. My apps are in for FDX/SWA/UAL/DAL/AA. I have all the flying pre-reqs, but I'm currently sitting in a non-flying job (i.e. I have currency via GA/CAP flying, but not going to get the 100 hours that places like UAL desire). I'm going to keep pressing for the majors, but assuming that I end up spending a little while building time after retirement so I look prettier for the majors interview boards, what options should I be looking at to remain competitive? Regional 121? 135? Local/long haul cargo/feeders? I have no ground truth, but I'm told (rumor mill) that some majors prefer Regional 121 to 135 or other types of flying. I'm willing to absorb any insight you're willing to provide. Not trying to create a flying type argument, just looking for insight from those that have been there.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

You've got the right creds, so that shouldn't cause you a problem getting on with one of your choices in a hiring cycle. Regional will offer you more opportunities to get hired and get flying, but in the long run may not be worth it to you if that costs you an opportunity with a major for taking. The nice thing about coming out of military is you have the potential to go direct to a major and get seniority started there a few years earlier; so you may want to take advantage of that.

As for cargo or pax... Do you prefer working day or night? For most people I know that left the good cargo jobs, they did so because they could no longer stand working nights. YMMV. Good luck.
 
Sluggo63 said:
2,000 might be a little low for a 20 year O-5, but I'm sure there were a few staff tours in that, and probably some leadership positions where there wasn't much flying, but I think the biggest issue for the OP is going to be the recency of experience, not TT.
Click to expand...
A lot depends on service/community and timing of flying tours. 2000 by 20 is average to good for some platforms in the Navy. Some guys have gotten caught in the years of reduced hours when fuel budgets were tight.
 
UAL is looking to reduce that currency requirement. I would recommend a 121 job based on my research. I'm in a similar situation as you. One more option you might consider. If you were an IP in any of platform, you can take the mil conversion test and get CCI/CFII. That would look better for currency than just flying around in a Cessna. They like instructor time, even in GA aircraft. Whatever you do, stay away from any commitments because you are hireable right now. I hear Skywest and Endeavor mentioned most often by low time mil guys who are wanting to go to the majors.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I don't know. For a tactical guy, he's probably right on.

I'm not going to argue the merits of what I'm about to say, because there are wildly differing opinions on it, but most majors give military fighter/trainer time a "multiple" to normalize it to the military "heavy" pilots.

The thinking is that what a Tanker/Strat Air guy does in 4-6 hours (takeoff, mission, transition work, land) is what a Fighter guy does in a 1.3. Therefore, a fighter guy coming out with 2,000 hours probably has the same amount of 'sorties' than a heavy guy coming out with 4,000 hours.

2,000 might be a little low for a 20 year O-5, but I'm sure there were a few staff tours in that, and probably some leadership positions where there wasn't much flying, but I think the biggest issue for the OP is going to be the recency of experience, not TT.
Click to expand...

Sluggo,

I believe the hours conversion is meant to make up for the different way in which the military logs hours. The majors allow heavy guys to add the same conversion to their hours. The FAA allows you to log time as soon as the aircraft is moving under its own power. Major airlines use block times. The military is wheels up to wheels down +5 minutes. In order to bring military flyers in line with normal logging methods, they allow all military pilots to add either 0.2 or 0.3 per sortie.
 
Cooter143 said:
UAL is looking to reduce that currency requirement. I would recommend a 121 job based on my research. I'm in a similar situation as you. One more option you might consider. If you were an IP in any of platform, you can take the mil conversion test and get CCI/CFII. That would look better for currency than just flying around in a Cessna. They like instructor time, even in GA aircraft. Whatever you do, stay away from any commitments because you are hireable right now. I hear Skywest and Endeavor mentioned most often by low time mil guys who are wanting to go to the majors.
Click to expand...

Cooter,

I've got a few hundred hours of IP time and have considered the mil comp. I have the test complete, just haven't completed the paperwork. Although I agree it looks good, I'm not sure if I'll have the time to build any IP time with my current job requirements and other family issues. I'll definitely keep this in mind and see if I can swing it next year. Any words on how they look on IP/EP time in CAP? If I go mil comp, is it automatically CFII vs CFI? Also, am I limited to MEI vs CFI since I was an IP in a ME aircraft?
 
Last edited:
I'm not familiar with CAP, but in most APPs there is a column for Instructor hrs. It doesn't separate them so all should count the same. FedEx ask if you were an IP and CFI, and years instructing in each but not a breakdown of hrs. Most airlines use the point system, so any extra blocks you can fill helps. Some seem to have a trigger for currency and you won't get noticed until you meet the minimum.

Unfortunately, each FSDO seems to view things differently but you should be able to get CFI/CFII if you instructed Instruments. If you have paperwork that says you were an inst. check pilot then it should be easy. Otherwise it might could go either way. As far as MEI, others would know better but I would guess you could get both as long as you weren't centerline thrust limited.
 
tinygiant said:
Sluggo,

I believe the hours conversion is meant to make up for the different way in which the military logs hours. The majors allow heavy guys to add the same conversion to their hours. The FAA allows you to log time as soon as the aircraft is moving under its own power. Major airlines use block times. The military is wheels up to wheels down +5 minutes. In order to bring military flyers in line with normal logging methods, they allow all military pilots to add either 0.2 or 0.3 per sortie.
Click to expand...
No. That's not the 'multiplier' I'm talking about. I know all about the .02 per sortie, etc.

My info is a little stale... Hired at UAL in 2000 and FedEx in 2005, but back then, when you filled out the applications for UAL, for instance, (on a SCANTRON bubble sheet), there was a column for Military Fighter/Trainer time, and a separate column for Military Heavy time. The conventional wisdom/urban legend/old wives tale was that UAL was taking that Fighter/Trainer time and, behind the scenes, giving that a multiple of 3-4x for the reasons I stated above.

My own independent non-scientific survey bore that out. In my UAL new-hire class, out of the 20+ military guys in there, we all had either a fighter background, or were heavy guys who had done a stint in AETC (or the Navy equivalent).

I had a bud who was in my UPT class. We both went to KC-135s together for two assignments, on the third assignment, I went and flew Tweets for 4 years, while he did another tour in the tanker. When I got hired at UAL, I was able to check to see where he was on the list. He was >3,000 numbers for being called. We basically had the same resume, same hours, except 1,500 of mine were as a T-37 IP, his were in the KC-135. I got a call early, he never did (now he's at DAL... so it's all good)

Again, I don't know if this practice still goes on, but there has to be some discriminator. I don't know what a typical F-xx guys gets now, with the Ops Tempo the way it is, but getting out at the 10 year point, I'd imagine a C/KC/RC-xxx has more TT than the fighter guy. There would have to be an equalizer on there somehow, because fighter guys are getting hired at a rate about the same as the heavy guys.
 
tinygiant said:
Cooter,

I've got a few hundred hours of IP time and have considered the mil comp. I have the test complete, just haven't completed the paperwork. Although I agree it looks good, I'm not sure if I'll have the time to build any IP time with my current job requirements and other family issues. I'll definitely keep this in mind and see if I can swing it next year. Any words on how they look on IP/EP time in CAP? If I go mil comp, is it automatically CFII vs CFI? Also, am I limited to MEI vs CFI since I was an IP in a ME aircraft?
Click to expand...

Skulls up,
I'm an Eagle IP/SEFE and in my area (SE) they will only give you the Instrument Airplane instructor with the mil comp test. Still better than nothing because you can do add-on checkrides for SE and ME, but it's a pain.

Not being current you'll likely have to do a quick T&G at a regional. The guys I know at SkyWest like it. PM me if you want to talk with them. They were in a similar boat as you - fighter to non-fly to exit to regional.

I started at Delta 13 months ago - it's a lot more fun than I was expecting. I'm on long term mil leave now, but I do miss it. Looking forward to retirement! Good luck, let me know if I can help.
 
Thanks all for the data. I had a feeling I'd get the answers I've seen here and it's generally what I was expecting, but wanted to confirm before I started making plans.

Thanks again! I'll let you know how it turns out...
 
Do some research, find the regional that has a junior base where you plan on living after retiring, because you'll be sitting lots of reserve there and you don't want to commute to that. They are all desperate, so you'll get hired pretty quick at the place of your choice. From reports of other mil dudes in the same boat as you, you probably will only spend a few months there until your majors call anyways.
 
fiveninerzero said:
Do some research, find the regional that has a junior base where you plan on living after retiring, because you'll be sitting lots of reserve there and you don't want to commute to that. They are all desperate, so you'll get hired pretty quick at the place of your choice. From reports of other mil dudes in the same boat as you, you probably will only spend a few months there until your majors call anyways.
Click to expand...
While that is certainly good advice, at a lot of regionals right now, there isn't much 'sitting' on reserve.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Out of curiosity, if things at ExpressJet are stagnant, why do I keep getting their cards in the mail saying they are coming to a town near me to interview?
Click to expand...

I have a friend who left ExpressJet 4-5 months ago for that reason. He described why things are slowing down but I can't remember. He went to compass and upgraded almost immediately.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top