Question For CFIs - Deciding not to fly in a student's airplane

CC268

CC268

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CC268
So I'm not a CFI (although I will be, one day)...but I've been thinking about this recently...

So if your an independent CFI (meaning your not working for a flight school) and you have a potential student who wants to fly in their airplane, I assume you meet with the student first to verify that all the proper documentation and airworthiness items are complete (ARROW, AVIATES). Have you ever turned a student down because you thought their aircraft was unsafe? Maybe the thing just looked like a junker, maybe it hasn't been flown in 7 years, but the A&P signed the annual off...etc.

I can just imagine meeting some student and he wants to get back into flying and he hasn't flown his Mooney for 7 years and the thing looks like a death trap. It would be awkward, but I think I would just tell the guy, "look man, I just don't feel safe flying this airplane". You ever done this before?

Honestly the only aircraft I feel safe in is the Cirrus :stirpot: I kid I kid :p
 
No.

Frankly I haven't really ran across many planes that were legit unsafe, some that could use some paint and upholstery sure, some that had crap radios yup, but legit unsafe but airworthy, nothing really comes to mind.


It's kinda like how many CFIs have you seen who sign a person off to solo who completely can't fly, I can't think of many stories I've heard about students lawn darting on their first solo.
 
James331 said:
No.

Frankly I haven't really ran across many planes that were legit unsafe, some that could use some paint and upholstery sure, some that had crap radios yup, but legit unsafe but logbook airworthy, nothing really comes to mind.
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Well that's good to know. I assume you require the student to show you that the aircraft is airworthy? Or do you just say kick the tires light the fires lets go?
 
Hell yeah, kick dem tires and light the candle! Let's go fly.

Honestly, the ones I've flown with in their own planes were well maintained so I never had any worries. Now the pilots of those planes.....I kid! ;)
 
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I'm not a CFI either, but the best rental trainer I've ever flown was a significantly bigger piece of crap than the worst privately owned plane I've been around. I've also been left stranded at airports away from home by busted rentals twice... but never a privately owned plane.
 
I was working with a guy once years ago and he and his son, both pilots, bought a Comanche. The father wanted recurrent training and we did a flight but I noticed something odd about the seat belts, but it never clicked until we finished the flight and I looked closer at them. They were automotive belts, don't know when or where they were installed or how long they were installed in the plane. I said that he could either get the correct belts and I would fly with him again, or he could fly with someone else, either way didn't make much difference to me. He got the new belts installed.
 
CC268 said:
Well that's good to know. I assume you require the student to show you that the aircraft is airworthy? Or do you just say kick the tires light the fires lets go?
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I'll go over the paperwork ofcourse, if anything because I put food on my table with my certs and don't want to risk it for anything.

But yeah, it's really never been an issue.


champ driver said:
I was working with a guy once years ago and he and his son, both pilots, bought a Comanche. The father wanted recurrent training and we did a flight but I noticed something odd about the seat belts, but it never clicked until we finished the flight and I looked closer at them. They were automotive belts, don't know when or where they were installed or how long they were installed in the plane. I said that he could either get the correct belts and I would fly with him again, or he could fly with someone else, either way didn't make much difference to me. He got the new belts installed.
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Which is a no bueno all day long, however from a safety (not legal) standpoint they would stop you from going out the windshield, or coming off your seat in turbulence just the same.
 
I don’t do much independent instruction but everytime I’ve flown in a student’s plane I ask to see the logbooks.
 
champ driver said:
I was working with a guy once years ago and he and his son, both pilots, bought a Comanche. The father wanted recurrent training and we did a flight but I noticed something odd about the seat belts, but it never clicked until we finished the flight and I looked closer at them. They were automotive belts, don't know when or where they were installed or how long they were installed in the plane. I said that he could either get the correct belts and I would fly with him again, or he could fly with someone else, either way didn't make much difference to me. He got the new belts installed.
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Ah, for the good ol' days before metal-to-metal connectors!
 
I'm very picky about who I give instruction to these days. If I don't trust them enough to get in their airplane without inspecting the logs, I just don't fly with them. Accordingly, most of my instruction these days is given to friends.
 
You’re worried about customer’s airplanes?

Have you seen the state of many (if not most) rental aircraft?
 
RalphInCA said:
You’re worried about customer’s airplanes?

Have you seen the state of many (if not most) rental aircraft?
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I suppose I was a bit spoiled as I did my flight training out of KSDL at Scottsdale Executive. They are known for their Cirrus training as they have 5 Cirrus (2 SR22T, 1 SR22, and 2 SR20s) - all newer than 2010 (the SR22s are 2012, 2015, and 2016). They have two (well now three) 172s - N models that I did my training in. Both were very nice airplanes that were very well maintained. Never had any issues. Panels were completely redone and cleaned up with 430Ws, new Garmin transponder, audio panels, etc.

Anyways...I suppose I have been lucky that I have never had to fly a rental that looked or felt like a piece of junk.
 
CC268 said:
I suppose I was a bit spoiled as I did my flight training out of KSDL at Scottsdale Executive. They are known for their Cirrus training as they have 5 Cirrus (2 SR22T, 1 SR22, and 2 SR20s) - all newer than 2010 (the SR22s are 2012, 2015, and 2016). They have two (well now three) 172s - N models that I did my training in. Both were very nice airplanes that were very well maintained. Never had any issues. Panels were completely redone and cleaned up with 430Ws, new Garmin transponder, audio panels, etc.

Anyways...I suppose I have been lucky that I have never had to fly a rental that looked or felt like a piece of junk.
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Tell ya the truth, the best dispatch rate plane I've ever flown was a 1940's Champ, aside from a new tire or a little oil or spark plugs and filters, outside of annuals it never really ever was in the mx hangar.

The more high tech stuff tends to have more issues, from newer G1000s cessnas to PC12s.
 
James331 said:
Tell ya the truth, the best dispatch rate plane I've ever flown was a 1940's Champ, aside from a new tire or a little oil or spark plugs and filters, outside of annuals it never really ever was in the mx hangar.

The more high tech stuff tends to have more issues, from newer G1000s cessnas to PC12s.
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I got a free discovery ride in a G1000 172, but other than that I have never flown anything glass panel...always been the ole steam gauges (which have been an absolute nightmare in my own Cherokee 140 and have had horrible reliability.)
 
The new FBO here has some nicer rentals. The old ones were clapped-out 1960s vintage Cherokees that smelled of old sweat, desperation and panic.
 
In the 90s I owned an FBO & had several young CFIs working for me. A student showed up with a worn out Tomahawk. He purchased it from Bolivar Aviation in OK that had gone defunct. Neither of my Instructors wanted to fly in the airplane. They were both nervous about the reputation the Tomahawks had & thought the airplane was unsafe. I needed the business so after checking out the airworthiness of the airplane decided to fly in it.

Long story short, it was my one & only total engine failure in an airplane. We'd flown it around 10 hours locally & headed out on my students first x-c flight. Thirty miles from our home airport the engine started running rough & then quit. We were able to land at a crop dusters strip without incident.

Yes, even us salty old dogs make mistakes.

After the engine was repaired the student did finish his private licence with me in the airplane. I actually enjoyed flying the airplane.
 
RalphInCA said:
You’re worried about customer’s airplanes?

Have you seen the state of many (if not most) rental aircraft?
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The rental airplanes in my area are far better kept than many of the privately owned airplanes...

From seeing some of the posts here I’m beginning to believe that there are just a lot of POS privately owned airplanes around me. I’m not talking about superficial problems here either, I’m talking about serious airworthiness issues. As a mechanic and flight instructor I know who’s airplanes to fly in and who’s to avoid, regardless of what the paperwork looks like. And to answer the OP’s question, yes I have avoided flying with some people in their airplanes.
 
I have worked with a couple of students to take care of squawks before I will fly the plane. One kid didn't know anything airplane related and bought a Cherokee 140 with a quick flip maaco style paintjob on it. Harness was original as far as I looked back (into the 80s) and mags were as well. Stabilator trim had tons of endplay, and the flaps wouldn't retract from 40 until there was pressure(air or hand) on them. I made him correct it and everything else went swimmingly. Turned down a v35k that had a paper annual every year, (mag ailerons were swiss cheese and about to turn into snj style dive brakes lol, the tip tanks looked like they were gooping up with resin, the gearbox was..... etc.). Had a couple of ferry trips where I made the owner fix some things before heading out. It really is amazing some of the stuff out there that is questionable.
 
champ driver said:
I was working with a guy once years ago and he and his son, both pilots, bought a Comanche. The father wanted recurrent training and we did a flight but I noticed something odd about the seat belts, but it never clicked until we finished the flight and I looked closer at them. They were automotive belts, don't know when or where they were installed or how long they were installed in the plane. I said that he could either get the correct belts and I would fly with him again, or he could fly with someone else, either way didn't make much difference to me. He got the new belts installed.
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Makes you wonder what other suto parts he installed.
 
I have only had one owner/student that I told there was no way I would get on that plane. He was all excited that he just bought the plane and it had a good engine. I told him that was good but there were a lot of other issues to be addressed. He spent about 8k to fix the issues, plane was still a POS, I said nope. Find someone else.
 
James331 said:
It's kinda like how many CFIs have you seen who sign a person off to solo who completely can't fly, I can't think of many stories I've heard about students lawn darting on their first solo.
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I didn't hear many stories either, but the airplane I soloed in, N6693W, was destroyed in 2014 by a student on his first solo, who flew into a hangar in a botched go-around from a minimum altitude.
 
zaitcev said:
I didn't hear many stories either, but the airplane I soloed in, N6693W, was destroyed in 2014 by a student on his first solo, who flew into a hangar in a botched go-around from a minimum altitude.
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How did he pull that one off?
 
zaitcev said:
I didn't hear many stories either, but the airplane I soloed in, N6693W, was destroyed in 2014 by a student on his first solo, who flew into a hangar in a botched go-around from a minimum altitude.
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WTF, how do you fly into a hangar which has to be good amount away from RWY... inquiring minds want to know...
 
James331 said:
How did he pull that one off?
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Apparently not enough right rudder. A Cherokee in such a situation will turn left if you keep wings level.

"On the student pilot's second solo landing the airplane landed hard and bounced twice. The flight instructor, standing on the side of the runway, radioed instructions to "go-around". The student pilot then applied full power, applied right rudder and retracted one notch of flaps. The flight instructor observed the airplane was then in a steep nose up stalling pitch attitude. He radioed instructions to "pitch down, pitch down", and with the airplane very low to the ground and drifting left, the student pilot radioed back asking the flight instructor to "say again". Control was lost and the airplane impacted a hangar about 650 feet to the left of runway center line."
 
zaitcev said:
Apparently not enough right rudder. A Cherokee in such a situation will turn left if you keep wings level.

"On the student pilot's second solo landing the airplane landed hard and bounced twice. The flight instructor, standing on the side of the runway, radioed instructions to "go-around". The student pilot then applied full power, applied right rudder and retracted one notch of flaps. The flight instructor observed the airplane was then in a steep nose up stalling pitch attitude. He radioed instructions to "pitch down, pitch down", and with the airplane very low to the ground and drifting left, the student pilot radioed back asking the flight instructor to "say again". Control was lost and the airplane impacted a hangar about 650 feet to the left of runway center line."
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Sounds like it wasn't a lack of rudder but a lack of neurons

"Say again" ...dude..

Sounds like he was sooo far behind the plane he wasn't even in the crash.
 
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Fascinating thread. I'm one of those students with an airplane, and I've never had a CFI ask to see the logs. Of course I do a thorough intro to the CFI, quick review of avionics and radios, where the fire extinguisher is, etc. Mainly because most of them are flying glass these days and I'm still mostly old school avionics. But all of them are very familiar with cherokees, so it's usually no big deal.
 
Hi.
Get the Log books, the Insurance and get added to the Policy before doing anything.
 
zaitcev said:
I didn't hear many stories either, but the airplane I soloed in, N6693W, was destroyed in 2014 by a student on his first solo, who flew into a hangar in a botched go-around from a minimum altitude.
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Damn. Just damn.
 
mscard88 said:
Damn. Just damn.
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The best part? He survived with a couple of bruises. The airplane hit the hangar right between support columns, which ripped the wings off and that took away some of the energy. The hangar was empty (well, there was a car that he missed). The fuel tanks remained outside of the hangar, in the detached wings, so there was no fire.

It does not always work like that. There was a gruesome story at FTG a few years ago, when, IIRC, a student landed a Jabiru on top of some hangars. The fuselage came apart, and she fell into a gap between two hangars and got stuck there. The rescue was quite slow in coming and she died while jammed in the hole between hangars. Murphey should remember that case and correct me if I misremember.

Statistically, students are safer than an average private pilot. But they certainly do get into accidents.
 
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zaitcev said:
The best part? He survived with a couple of bruises. The airplane hit the hangar right between support columns, which ripped the wings off and that took away some of the energy. The hangar was empty (well, there was a car that he missed). The fuel tanks remained outside of the hangar, in the detached wings, so there was no fire.

It does not always work like that. There was a gruesome story at FTG a few years ago, when, IIRC, a student landed a Jabiru on top of some hangars. The fuselage came apart, and she fell into a gap between two hangars and got stuck there. The rescue was quite slow in coming and she died while jammed in the hole between hangars. Murphy should remember that case and correct me if I misremember.

Statistically, students are safer than an average private pilot. But they certainly do get into accidents.
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What happened to the CFI? Did the FAA and/or insurance companies come after him?
 
labbadabba said:
Isn't a student flying solo PIC? Why would the insurance come after the CFI?
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Because the CFI endorsed the student for the flight?

Maybe the insurance company would not come after the instructor. Attorneys might.
 
As an airplane owner that did my instrument instruction in my own plane, I fully expected prospective CFIIs to ask for and review my aircraft's maintenance logs before they would fly with me. I had them in hand, ready to give to them when we first met.
 
zaitcev said:
The best part? He survived with a couple of bruises. The airplane hit the hangar right between support columns, which ripped the wings off and that took away some of the energy. The hangar was empty (well, there was a car that he missed). The fuel tanks remained outside of the hangar, in the detached wings, so there was no fire.

It does not always work like that. There was a gruesome story at FTG a few years ago, when, IIRC, a student landed a Jabiru on top of some hangars. The fuselage came apart, and she fell into a gap between two hangars and got stuck there. The rescue was quite slow in coming and she died while jammed in the hole between hangars. Murphey should remember that case and correct me if I misremember.

Statistically, students are safer than an average private pilot. But they certainly do get into accidents.
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Definitely before my time, never heard of this before.
 
I think I can speak for my cfi. I'm pretty sure he felt safer in my 3300 hr tt w/ 200 smoh than he did in the 20,000 hr 172 which we had to declare an emergency in when the engine stumbled while turning crosswind at power reduction. Damn school wouldn't send an available chopper for us and we had to rent a car and drive 2.5 hrs home. Then the school's maintenance department ok'd the plane back into service without finding much wrong. A few flights later someone else declared an emergency and it was found to have a cracked cylinder.

I bought my Cherokee shortly after that and have not flown a ragged out 172 since. It did have a nice Garmin in it though.
 
Had a guy show up for a BFR (when they were called that) in A Stearman. Said he'd fly the C152 if I wanted him to. Hell no, Stearman time dude, (well didn't use 'dude' back then, probably man) let's fly!
 
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mscard88 said:
Had a guy show up for a BFR (when they were called that) in A Stearman. Said he'd fly the C152 if I wanted him to. Hell no, Stearman time dude, (well didn't use 'dude' back then, probably man) let's fly!
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I tried to get a fed to renew my CFI with a checkride in my Maule. Her excuse was they weren't allowed to do elective checkrides.

Maybe she really thought that my airplane was dangerous...:eek:
 
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