Question following our overhaul

dwalt

dwalt

Pre-takeoff checklist
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DWalt
We had the overhaul on our 0-360-A4K done by Don George. So far very pleased with the work.

I do have a question for others who've used him though. We received 8130s from them to return all of the parts to service, but we don't have a logbook entry returning the engine itself to service. I spoke to Don and he said that's correct because they aren't a repair station. He said that when our mechanic installed the engine and test-ran it and then signed off returning the aircraft to service, that that serves as the proper logbook entry. Anyone have input on that?
 
For an engine to be overhauled it must be test run. When you received your engine it had not been run so it was not technically overhauled at that time. Your mechanic signing off on the test run completes the overhaul process. Don's shop does good work but I am surprised that they leave the installing mechanic holding the bag for completing the overhaul.
 
charlie said:
For an engine to be overhauled it must be test run. When you received your engine it had not been run so it was not technically overhauled at that time. Your mechanic signing off on the test run completes the overhaul process. Don's shop does good work but I am surprised that they leave the installing mechanic holding the bag for completing the overhaul.
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So here's the confusing thing. Don ran it on their test stand and gave us a sheet with the performance numbers from running it in their shop, but he said that our mechanic running it is what signs it off
 
That's a new one on me with 44 years in the engine business. The overhauling agency be it an A & P or a certified repair station should provide a logbook entry for the overhaul. That in my book is the return to service for the engine. The installing signs off the installation of the engine and propeller on the aircraft returning it to service. Maybe the Orlando FSDO interprets the rules differently than the Tampa FSDO?
 
dwalt said:
So here's the confusing thing. Don ran it on their test stand and gave us a sheet with the performance numbers from running it in their shop, but he said that our mechanic running it is what signs it off
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I really hope this is dude doesn't expect someone to completely buy off the entire engine assembly that they had no hand in assembling it. There is NFW I would.
 
charlie said:
For an engine to be overhauled it must be test run. When you received your engine it had not been run so it was not technically overhauled at that time. Your mechanic signing off on the test run completes the overhaul process. Don's shop does good work but I am surprised that they leave the installing mechanic holding the bag for completing the overhaul.
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me too.
 
as I see it, he doesn't meet the requirements of 43.9
 
dwalt said:
but he said that our mechanic running it is what signs it off
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not true. I'm with Charley, the repairing facility's should sign it off with an entry of
"this engine serial _____ meets far 43.2 for being overhauled at Engine TT of _____. and signed by the facilities DOM or A&P.

Then your A&P has the entry needed to re-install on N ____ at the tach time of AFTT____ and return the AIRCRAFT to service as safe to fly.

The FAA 's take is...... "if the entry doesn't say it is overhauled, it ain't'
 
bnt83 said:
I really hope this is dude doesn't expect someone to completely buy off the entire engine assembly that they had no hand in assembling it. There is NFW I would.
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There are occasions where the overhauling facility can't run/test the engine. but they are required by 43.9 to enter what they did do.
 
And folks ***** about me teaching about log entries here.
 
dwalt said:
We had the overhaul on our 0-360-A4K done by Don George. So far very pleased with the work.

I do have a question for others who've used him though. We received 8130s from them to return all of the parts to service, but we don't have a logbook entry returning the engine itself to service. I spoke to Don and he said that's correct because they aren't a repair station. He said that when our mechanic installed the engine and test-ran it and then signed off returning the aircraft to service, that that serves as the proper logbook entry. Anyone have input on that?
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Have you told him hour concerned and told him you need him to sign it off?

I mean you gave this guy quite a bit of cash, if he's happy with his work I see no reason he wouldn't toss some ink into your logs.
 
James331 said:
Have you told him hour concerned and told him you need him to sign it off?

I mean you gave this guy quite a bit of cash, if he's happy with his work I see no reason he wouldn't toss some ink into your logs.
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When he signs it off, he take responsibility for it.
 
The installing mechanic shouldn't assume responsibility for the engine assembly. The engine builder needs to step up otherwise they are in violation of FAR.
 
Tom-D said:
When he signs it off, he take responsibility for it.
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Which is why I said the OH guy should be the one laying ink down, not the AP bolting it to the plane
 
James331 said:
Which is why I said the OH guy should be the one laying ink down, not the AP bolting it to the plane
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True,, that is why he needs to comply with 43.9 and make the entry that states what he did.
If Don George did not say it was overhauled, it wasn't.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Call your fsdo and ask an airworthiness inspector.
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What do you believe they will tell you that the FARs won't?

IMHO all that you will achieve is like throwing scat at the fan.
 
Tom-D said:
What do you believe they will tell you that the FARs won't?

IMHO all that you will achieve is like throwing scat at the fan.
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Well sounds like he might be in a situation where the endorsements in his books are not adequate to legally return him to service. Seems like an inspector might be able to help him out. If this situation is accurately depicted the engine shop he paid is run by an arrogant *******. I wouldn't have a problem calling the fsdo for the specific purpose of slinging some of the scat you referenced.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Well sounds like he might be in a situation where the endorsements in his books are not adequate to legally return him to service. Seems like an inspector might be able to help him out. If this situation is accurately depicted the engine shop he paid is run by an arrogant *******. I wouldn't have a problem calling the fsdo for the specific purpose of slinging some of the scat you referenced.
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All you would do is place Dan George on the defensive and probably not get what is needed.

Dan George has not been in this business as long as he has because he is a bad guy.
 
Tom-D said:
All you would do is place Dan George on the defensive and probably not get what is needed.

Dan George has not been in this business as long as he has because he is a bad guy.
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If there is one thing I have noticed in aviation it's that the longevity and outward appearance of success has little bearing on what really happens in a business. Some of the most unethical and unsafe operations I have worked for were pillars in the industry. Outspoken advocates of safety and being ethical. In reality they were closer to being criminals. I don't know who Dan George is. I don't care. IF the op is telling the truth he can sure ask Dan for a proper logbook entry. If he refuses it's time for lawyers and fsdo inspectors.
 
Does the FAA/local FSDO care if a shop is overhauling engines and refusing to take credit/responsibility for their work? Heaven forbid that engine takes a dump and there's an accident, who would the FAA go after when the truth is revealed?
 
iflyvfr said:
Does the FAA/local FSDO care if a shop is overhauling engines and refusing to take credit/responsibility for their work? Heaven forbid that engine takes a dump and there's an accident, who would the FAA go after when the truth is revealed?
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The FAA does care when WE Violate the FARs, including return to service entries.
The FAA does not determine the cause or blame in any accidents, the NTSB does.

IT really depends upon what the truth reveals ?
 
Thanks Tom, I was thinking enforcement action versus NTSB findings.
 
iflyvfr said:
Thanks Tom, I was thinking enforcement action versus NTSB findings.
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When you are an A&P and are under the microscope stand by for an audit, they will being their fine toothed comb, and their lawyer.
but the worst they can do is suspend your privileges
 
Quick update. Got these texts from my mechanic:


"They are going to mail me a new log entry with the mechanics signature and A&P number on it. some mix up with what they were actually supposed to send with the engine. Either way when I get it I will let you know and post it in the log."



I'm glad it's getting sorted out but the whole thing is strange to me. When I talked to Don, why did he originally tell me that he didn't need to send one? I did a lot of research before choosing a shop and Don had nothing but a stellar reputation with everyone I spoke to (and everything I read). Got to be honest, I'm a little concerned now but I suppose it still could've been an honest mixup of what was and wasn't sent with the engine.

Thanks everyone for the input here.

For those of you who've worked with Don George's shop in the past, did you have any of these issues?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Tom-D said:
Apparently :)
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If he is such a good guy then why refuse to sign off his work? Something doesn't add up. Either Dan is a prick or the op is misunderstanding the log entries/lying. I'll stand by my statement. IF the op is telling the truth and representing the situation accurately then Dan is not conducting business in good faith and should be held accountable.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
If he is such a good guy then why refuse to sign off his work? Something doesn't add up. Either Dan is a prick or the op is misunderstanding the log entries/lying. I'll stand by my statement. IF the op is telling the truth and representing the situation accurately then Dan is not conducting business in good faith and should be held accountable.
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He has ran a reputable shop or many years, I don't know what is going on either. But I know calling FSDO isn't going to get done what needs to be.
We don't even know what the WO says. or if the deal was for an overhaul.

He may be waiting payment, we don't know So I'm not rushing to judgement
 
Tom-D said:
He has ran a reputable shop or many years, I don't know what is going on either. But I know calling FSDO isn't going to get done what needs to be.
We don't even know what the WO says. or if the deal was for an overhaul.

He may be waiting payment, we don't know So I'm not rushing to judgement
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Neither am I Tom. There was an all caps IF in my post. There were two very specific and significant conditions to my statement.
 
I wonder who has the log book now
 
Tom-D said:
He has ran a reputable shop or many years, I don't know what is going on either. But I know calling FSDO isn't going to get done what needs to be.
We don't even know what the WO says. or if the deal was for an overhaul.

He may be waiting payment, we don't know So I'm not rushing to judgement
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At this point no need to call the FSDO now...my mechanic reached out to Don and Don is getting the logbook entry sent to us (see my post a few rows up). The thing I still don't get is why Don told me we didn't need it when I spoke to him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Well great,, case closed.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Could be the difference in maintaining a career or even staying out of jail.
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not for part 91 for which affects 99% of everyone here...8130-3 ain't needed for much...cept life limited parts. And only a repair shop can sign those.
 
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Tom-D said:
There never is.
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I have not not found an 8130 included for an engine repair or OH in a long time, private or commercial aircraft. I guess a field OH done by an A&P without an approved shop would be an exception.
 
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