Putting flaps in during a turn

ifconfig said:
I'm stealing the "abandon thread" gif though not the reason for it.
I have never, ever heard of the elevators turning the aircraft. :idea:
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The elevator certainly turns the aircraft, it does not however roll the aircraft.
 
Henning said:
The elevator certainly turns the aircraft, it does not however roll the aircraft.
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I can turn the aircraft without using the elevator. I end up in a descent, but the aircraft does turn. Now if you want a level turn...
 
txflyer said:
You roll into a bank with aileron. You maintain it with elevator with aileron's neutral, as in level flight, save for minor corrections.
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Who's approaching to land in LEVEL flight?

This is getting incredibly stupid.
 
Sac Arrow said:
What if you have a mid field engine out, or have to do a short approach?
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Then you do things differently than the way you normally do it.

If you read the OP, nowhere do you see him saying that he was taught NEVER to do it, just that he SHOULD have wings level.

I prefer to keep my eyes moving outside in a turn, not to be watching the flap indicator (or anything else in the cockpit except glances at the ASI).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LandSickness View Post
I was taught attitude and airspeed is EVERYTHING during landing. If you're set up right, it shouldn't matter. I trained in a PA28 with manual flaps, so first set of flaps abeam the numbers, 2nd set during the turn from downwind to base, final set during the turn from base to final,

timwinters said:
Your statement leads me to believe that the winds, temperature and humidity are always the same at your airfield and that you never have to vary the timing of anything.

I seriously doubt this is the case. Proper timing for flap deployment, turns, etc. in the pattern are variable and should be adjusted to meet the demands of that day's conditions.
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I wasn't clear. Being "set up right" doesn't mean there's one setting for every approach. Being set up right means being ahead of the airplane, judging the conditions, anticipating and responding accordingly.
 
txflyer said:
Next time you're practicing steep turns, note where the aileron position is once you've established the bank. It will be neutral like level flight.

You maintain elevation with the elevator.
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Elevation isn't bank.
 
You can disregard the previous three posts. I have been on the road the last 4 hours and responded as I read the posts.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Elevation isn't bank.
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O.k. next time you're out, roll into a thirty degree bank, and hold the elevator neutral and see what happens.

sg1aLSi.gif
 
txflyer said:
O.k. next time you're out, roll into a thirty degree bank, and hold the elevator neutral and see what happens.

sg1aLSi.gif
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All I see is someone putting a foam RC plane in to a knife edge stall.
 
FastEddieB said:
And seriously, who might that be? I've repeatedly stipulated there might be times when a pilot will need flaps when turning and he or she should not hesitate because of a nearly infinitesimal chance of mechanical failure. At most, in my career I personally have found precious few times I've needed to to it, but that's just me™!



Here's how my presentation to a student might go:

"First, every time you reach for the flap switch, first glance at the airspeed indicator to make sure you're in the white arc. Do it every time and point to it and tell me you're doing it.

Second, we'll always try not to put down flaps while turning. We'll do 10º on downwind, 20º on base, and go to full flaps on final. You should always have plenty of time - plan ahead and you'll have more than enough time for flaps on the straight legs.

The reason is that sometimes one flap can fail, and if that happens, the plane will start what seems to be an uncommanded roll. You'll be in a slightly better position to recognize what's going on if you start from unbanked flight. It really hardly ever happens, but its still a good habit to get into."

Note in the second part the lack of the words "always", "never", "dangerous" or "hazardous". Admittedly the OP did paint it that way, and I've already stipulated it was overstated.
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No offense meant on my part. Parts of this conversation just struck me as contrary to what happens out there flying VFR airport to airport in normal spam cans (not acro or ag or super pilot stuff) and that's why I chimed in. All of the above sounds great, I just hope that a new pilot is prepared to "go straight to the numbers" or do a short approach or whatever is required to mix in with traffic that's all.
 
txflyer said:
RC models have the same aerodynamics as the real ones.
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Does that mean you think if you put an airplane in a 30 degree bank and hold neutral elevator you will get the result shown in the video with the RC airplane?
 
Ok OP back to chime in. I had no idea 6 pages would come from my question. Seems like we are definately not in agreement but I have learned a lot from reading the posts. I'll still wait till wings level because that's how I was trained and that's what I'm comfortable doing.

It does seem like adding flaps does alter the air flow around the wing and, if not corrected for could result in a lower speed and a greater chance of a stall. The point of that is that a stall during a turn would be a bad thing and likely be real bad at slow and low configuration. I imagine though, that anyone flying coordinated turns, well above stall speed, does not have much to worry about, regardless of when flaps are put down.
 
jspilot said:
Ok OP back to chime in. I had no idea 6 pages would come from my question. Seems like we are definately not in agreement but I have learned a lot from reading the posts. I'll still wait till wings level because that's how I was trained and that's what I'm comfortable doing.

It does seem like adding flaps does alter the air flow around the wing and, if not corrected for could result in a lower speed and a greater chance of a stall. The point of that is that a stall during a turn would be a bad thing and likely be real bad at slow and low configuration. I imagine though, that anyone flying coordinated turns, well above stall speed, does not have much to worry about, regardless of when flaps are put down.
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Better to expand your envelope of what you're comfortable with than limit your options due to fear of the unknown.
 
I didn't read through all 6 pages, but going off the original post....

I put flaps down in turns all the time. Could you get a flap failure that results in differential lift and an uncommanded rolling moment? Absolutely. I've never had that happen, but unless your particular aircraft locks out the other flap by design if this starts to occur, that would be the result. How bad would it be? That depends on the design of your wing, your flaps, how quickly they extend, how soon the failed flap failed, etc etc etc. In other words, in the 1/10000 chance occurrence of this, there is probably another miniscule chance that it wouldn't be controllable. I'd say that part of the chance depends very little on whether you are in an angle of bank or not. I know of a couple incidences where maneuvering flaps (ie not manually operated) failed asymmetrically at low altitude/high speed in level flight, and even in those examples, there wasn't a thing the guys could have done to survive.
 
Alexb2000 said:
All of the above sounds great, I just hope that a new pilot is prepared to "go straight to the numbers" or do a short approach or whatever is required to mix in with traffic that's all.
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As a counterpoint, I also would like a really new pilot to be prepared to say "Unable". He or she may have all of about 10 or 15 hours prior to solo, and it's not realistic to expect anything way out of the ordinary from them.

Really tight or truncated or non-standard patterns and slipping (or even slipping in turns) to save an approach are for the most part skills that develop later.
 
FastEddieB said:
As a counterpoint, I also would like a really new pilot to be prepared to say "Unable". He or she may have all of about 10 or 15 hours prior to solo, and it's not realistic to expect anything way out of the ordinary from them.

Really tight or truncated or non-standard patterns and slipping (or even slipping in turns) to save an approach are for the most part skills that develop later.
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Agreed. I believe the tower also considers what kind of aircraft they are talking to. I don't think I've ever heard a 172 get those kinds of requests, on the other end jets either, so there is some common sense going on.
 
txflyer said:
If you hold it long enough, yep.
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The only similarity is that you would eventually contact the earth, but you would do it in a 30 degree descending spiral. You wouldn't roll over and dive at the ground. Either you are not explaining what you mean correctly or you have a alternate reality when it comes to aerodynamics.
 
Whats it matter? Honestly . . . if you cannot control the airplane with an asymetrical deployment you should not be in the cockpit. Yes it happens - and it can happen wings level just as much as turning.
 
FastEddieB said:
As a counterpoint, I also would like a really new pilot to be prepared to say "Unable". He or she may have all of about 10 or 15 hours prior to solo, and it's not realistic to expect anything way out of the ordinary from them.

Really tight or truncated or non-standard patterns and slipping (or even slipping in turns) to save an approach are for the most part skills that develop later.
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Can't say unable when the engine isn't running and you need to get in somewhere short.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
You should. Quite entertaining.
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Especially this one...

EdFred said:
I'm just wondering where I can get the medical procedure done to have my larynx relocated into my rectum like one of you has. Because you are completely talking out of your ass.
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I'm surprised that hasn't made it into anyone's signature yet. :lol:
 
Everskyward said:
The only similarity is that you would eventually contact the earth, but you would do it in a 30 degree descending spiral. You wouldn't roll over and dive at the ground. Either you are not explaining what you mean correctly or you have a alternate reality when it comes to aerodynamics.
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What makes you so sure? Are you sky God?

From what I hear, you CO boys are the one's with legal alternate realities....


:goofy:
 
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