Putting flaps in during a turn

tmyers said:
You are ok JS, Keep posting. Some threads get a higher than usual level of Testosterone flowing, and some don't. Not exactly sure what brings it out.
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Stupid people.
 
If you'd only want to deploy flaps on landing or in level flight, what were combat flaps installed and used for in WW2 era fighters? :confused:
 
Ron Levy said:
I've read that, too. The fact that someone once wrote it somewhere doesn't make that a universal truth -- and this most definitely is not. Generally speaking, what it says in the POH has been determined by the engineers and test pilots at the factory to be the most effective configuration for that maneuver.
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Thanks Ron. That makes sense.



And good Morning beeeeyaches! I'm ready. Give it to me. :devil:
 
Greg Bockelman said:
You didn't ask me, but I got mine at 18. Just one year after you did. But what does that have to do with anything in this thread?
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It doesn't have anything to do with this thread. That's the fun of it. Haven't you been following?

My hat's off to you. You and I are in an elite club.

Flying and ****ing by the age of 18. :cheerswine:
 
Ron Levy said:
I've read that, too. The fact that someone once wrote it somewhere doesn't make that a universal truth -- and this most definitely is not. Generally speaking, what it says in the POH has been determined by the engineers and test pilots at the factory to be the most effective configuration for that maneuver.
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I believe it was Sparky who made the statement. It is in his Mountain Flying book and was a generalized recommendation IF the mfr did not specify a flap setting.
 
txflyer said:
It doesn't have anything to do with this thread. That's the fun of it. Haven't you been following?

My hat's off to you. You and I are in an elite club.

Flying and ****ing by the age of 18. :cheerswine:
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The examiner stood me up my first attempt, had to settle for 3 days after my 19th:redface:
 
jesse said:
Mine didn't either. I also had to earn it myself, while living on my own, and I passed my private checkride at 17 years old. Agree with you that the age you passed is completely irrelevant.
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Similar here. Passed at 19 I think. Getting too old to remember. ;) ;) ;)
 
Jimmy cooper said:
What are " combat flaps?"
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"Like gliders, some fighters such as the Nakajima Ki-43 also use special flaps to improve maneuverability during air combat, allowing the fighter to create more lift at a given speed, allowing for much tighter turns. The flaps used for this must be designed specifically to handle the greater stresses as most flaps have a maximum speed at which they can be deployed."
 
Numerous fighters deploy flaps, slats, and all sorts of crap during maneuvers automatically. First microprocessor ever used for such was aboard the F-14.
 
denverpilot said:
Numerous fighters deploy flaps, slats, and all sorts of crap during maneuvers automatically. First microprocessor ever used for such was aboard the F-14.
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True, but the overall concept has been around since at least WWII. If you search YouTube, you can find some good videos of Kermit Weeks describing the flaps on the Wildcat. They're speed limited, so pilots learned to enter the fight with the flap handle down and as the speed bled off in the turn the flaps would automatically extend and allow a tighter turn. I don't know that I've ever heard them referred to as 'combat flaps' though.

Same concept that the Southwest pilots used in the Burbank overrun. Put the flap lever to full when well above the limiting speed and wait for the airplane to get slow enough for the flaps to deploy.
 
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Combat flaps may be some kind of setting now that I think about it; afaik they're just like normal flaps but are put out to certain extensions for combat and landing. I was mainly using it as a counterpoint to people saying only use it in straight and level flight or landing. Pilots in turnfights with other aircraft definitely were not landing or staying level with their flaps in these situations and they didn't die :goofy: and I'm sure they took into account the possibility of split flap deployment.

I'm in the camp of "use them when you need them" with a dash of "be prepared in case it hits the fan" :yesnod:
 
Pilawt said:
Got the PPL on my 17th birthday.

:p
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Welcome to the teen pilot's club! :goofy:

Me, you, Duncan, and Denver so far ....



images
 
FWIW, soloed at 16, licensed at a month after 17. :rolleyes: more due to my dad's ability to sponsor me than anything else though
 
Dead Stick said:
Like that would make any difference. Honestly, who comes up with ideas like these? :idea:
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Bush pilots. :yes:

With manual flaps, you can do it. Acceleration with no flaps is argued to be faster, then yank them in when you want to pop off.

Works in reverse too. Very short field, come down with full flaps, right at touchdown, or even a smidge before, dump them and you're down and can stand on the brakes.
 
txflyer said:
Bush pilots. :yes:

With manual flaps, you can do it. Acceleration with no flaps is argued to be faster, then yank them in when you want to pop off.

Works in reverse too. Very short field, come down with full flaps, right at touchdown, or even a smidge before, dump them and you're down and can stand on the brakes.
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I worked on that with a 188, could not find a difference between starting with flaps in or popping them in.
 
txflyer said:
Bush pilots. :yes:

With manual flaps, you can do it. Acceleration with no flaps is argued to be faster, then yank them in when you want to pop off.

Works in reverse too. Very short field, come down with full flaps, right at touchdown, or even a smidge before, dump them and you're down and can stand on the brakes.
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No it doesn't. Seat of the pants perceptions don't count. Show me flight test data. It doesn't exist. The reason is simple, the difference in drag at those comparatively slow pre-rotation speeds is so minimal that the difference in the ground roll would be negligible at best. But there is the undeniable placebo that techniques like these have on some pilots. Dumping the flaps on landing does help to the extent that it transfers more weight from the wings to the wheels thus enhancing breaking performance.
 
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Henning said:
I worked on that with a 188, could not find a difference between starting with flaps in or popping them in.
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Dead Stick said:
No it doesn't. Perceptions don't count. Show me flight test data. It doesn't exist. Dumping the flaps on landing does help to the extent that it transfers more weight from the wings to the wheels thus enhancing breaking performance.
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Watch my context.

That's why I said "it's argued" to be faster.

When you think about it, the flaps not deflecting the power flow down, should accelerate the plane faster. But I have no empirical data to prove this.
 
denverpilot said:
Not really. I had no life outside of working and flying back then.

Oh wait... the habit stuck. Crap.
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Looking back, the most carefree days of my life was when I had nothing but a truck, a girlfriend, and Mom and Dad's roof over my head.


Whoever said "life is what happens while you're busy making plans." had it right.
 
txflyer said:
When you think about it, the flaps not deflecting the power flow down, should accelerate the plane faster. But I have no empirical data to prove this.
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Not to argumentative, but when I think about that I don't possible see how it could make any meaningful difference. I'm with Henning, there is no appreciable difference. There are a lot of OWTs in aviation just as in any other activity. Oh well, fly smart my friends and Happy New Year! Be safe everyone.
.
 
Dead Stick said:
Not to argumentative, but when I think about that I don't possible see how it could make any meaningful difference. I'm with Henning, there is no appreciable difference. There are a lot of OWTs in aviation just as in any other activity. Oh well, fly smart my friends and Happy New Year! Be safe everyone.
.
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Happy New Year!
 
Dead Stick said:
Not to argumentative, but when I think about that I don't possible see how it could make any meaningful difference. I'm with Henning, there is no appreciable difference. There are a lot of OWTs in aviation just as in any other activity. Oh well, fly smart my friends and Happy New Year! Be safe everyone.
.
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one needs to look at the airplane wing and flap design. Some flaps add more lift than drag in early extension, some don't.

The whole reason we have the sort of flaps we have in GA airplanes is to alter the shape of the wing to make it better suited for the particular task at hand.
 
Dead Stick said:
Like that would make any difference. Honestly, who comes up with ideas like these? :idea:
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Dead Stick said:
No it doesn't. Seat of the pants perceptions don't count. Show me flight test data. It doesn't exist. The reason is simple, the difference in drag at those comparatively slow pre-rotation speeds is so minimal that the difference in the ground roll would be negligible at best. But there is the undeniable placebo that techniques like these have on some pilots. Dumping the flaps on landing does help to the extent that it transfers more weight from the wings to the wheels thus enhancing breaking performance.
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What incredible arrogant ignorance. I was talking about professional bush ops. So was Txflyer. Are you a working bush pilot who must operate on the most critically short, soft, and rutted strips? I am positive you are not. That flap technique does help in certain conditions. It would note exist it it did not. Tell bush pilots who have spent decades flying in Alaska that this is just a 'placebo'. I'm sure they could really learn a lot from you. ;) If you are curious, this technique is described very well in F.E. Potts' book, 'Guide to Bush Flying'. He spent decades using this technique, and he is one of the most educated pilots in his craft I have ever read. But again, I'm sure you could teach him some things. ;)

Henning said:
I worked on that with a 188, could not find a difference between starting with flaps in or popping them in.
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Maybe that's true with the airplane you flew, in the environment you flew it, and with the skill level you had at the time. But were you ever a working bush pilot flying Super Cubs in and out of the most critical, soft, and rutted strips? I assume not.

This is not a weekend warrior technique. It takes practice. I'm not a bush pilot either. It wast just an example I provided of just one more way flaps are not used "just for landing".
 
RoscoeT said:
What incredible arrogant ignorance. I was talking about professional bush ops. So was Txflyer. Are you a working bush pilot who must operate on the most critically short, soft, and rutted strips? I am positive you are not. That flap technique does help in certain conditions. It would note exist it it did not. Tell bush pilots who have spent decades flying in Alaska that this is just a 'placebo'. I'm sure they could really learn a lot from you. ;) If you are curious, this technique is described very well in F.E. Potts' book, 'Guide to Bush Flying'. He spent decades using this technique, and he is one of the most educated pilots in his craft I have ever read. But again, I'm sure you could teach him some things. ;)



Maybe that's true with the airplane you flew, in the environment you flew it, and with the skill level you had at the time. But were you ever a working bush pilot flying Super Cubs in and out of the most critical, soft, and rutted strips? I assume not.

This is not a weekend warrior technique. It takes practice. I'm not a bush pilot either. It wast just an example I provided of just one more way flaps are not used "just for landing".
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Nope, I was an Ag pilot working Boll Weavil in the Texas heat. How many bush pilots do the experiment 10 times a day on the same strip under identical conditions with a measurable point of take off?
 
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RoscoeT said:
What incredible arrogant ignorance. I was talking about professional bush ops. So was Txflyer. Are you a working bush pilot who must operate on the most critically short, soft, and rutted strips? I am positive you are not. That flap technique does help in certain conditions. It would note exist it it did not. Tell bush pilots who have spent decades flying in Alaska that this is just a 'placebo'. I'm sure they could really learn a lot from you. ;) If you are curious, this technique is described very well in F.E. Potts' book, 'Guide to Bush Flying'. He spent decades using this technique, and he is one of the most educated pilots in his craft I have ever read. But again, I'm sure you could teach him some things. ;)



Maybe that's true with the airplane you flew, in the environment you flew it, and with the skill level you had at the time. But were you ever a working bush pilot flying Super Cubs in and out of the most critical, soft, and rutted strips? I assume not.

This is not a weekend warrior technique. It takes practice. I'm not a bush pilot either. It wast just an example I provided of just one more way flaps are not used "just for landing".
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It's not arrogance, it's physics and aerodynamics. When someone comes up with flight test data then I'll sing a different tune. High time bush pilots aren't immune from OWTs, infact they often propagate them. Henning's observations are bang on. Listen and learn my friend.
 
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This thread serves as a perfect example of how the simplest question posed on POA can turn into the most absurd cafeteria food fight ever witnessed.

To the guy with the Maule: don't worry about putting flaps in during a turn, worry more about that little button on the end of the flap handle popping off on final and you finding yourself one arm short of what's required to deal with the situation. Later, after you have successfully landed and are looking for that button I'll tell you where it is - it has found it's way into the deepest, darkest corner under the floorboards. I mean, where else would it go? :rolleyes:

And as for asymmetric flap deployment during a turn: Well don't you have a 50/50 chance of it being the outboard flap that dumps therefore putting you in a situation that is actually BETTER than if you were level?

Finally, to the original poster of the question: If that's the way you were taught and it hasn't been causing you any trouble then stick with it. But don't expect the rest of us to change our routine just because of that.
 
Just one more reason to enter all patterns with a straight in. You won't have to worry about deploying flaps in a turn. Of course if one side suddenly retracts on short final you're screwed. :(
 
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