Putting flaps in during a turn

[Greg Bockelman]

Banks are established with aileron and held with elevator. Like a climb, you're pushed down in your seat.

Care to explain that one to me? Unless I am doing it wrong I have ALWAYS maintained a bank with ailerons.

I guess you guys perform perfectly coordinated 1g turns.

Well, in level flight, you will always have x amount of increased g-loading, depending on the bank angle.

Vfe on mine is 120knots. So if I'm going 110knots, start a turn, and pull flaps, the actual weight/load on the wings could be exceeding Vfe was my point.

Vfe is an airspeed, not a load factor. Not sure how one relates to the other. The air load on the flap doesn't increase with bank angle.

I have manual flaps. So why is it harder to pull in a bank than it is level if the flaps are not seeing that load?

Well it's not because of the airspeed load on the flaps.

 

[txflyer]

Why do you think that Vfe is a load factor issue rather than aerodynamic? If you are banking in a level turn and increasing load factor, unless you increase power, you will lose speed, not increase.

All I know is, I can feel that load through the flap handle. More force to put them down, should equate to more force pushing them up.

I get it. Aerodynamic force should be the same, as in the same amount of 'wind' traveling under the wing. Only now you've made the wing maybe 1.5 times heavier in the opposite direction the flaps deploy towards. The air is being compressed more.

Try it sometime in a manual flap plane if you don't believe it.

 

[txflyer]

Care to explain that one to me? Unless I am doing it wrong I have ALWAYS maintained a bank with ailerons.

Go back and read 'stick and rudder' again.

Once a bank is established, you maintain it with elevator. Very little aileron is used.

To maintain horizon on one point on the glare shield, it takes elevator and rudder. The plane is in a level climb or descent for all intents and purposes as far as the ailerons are concerned.

 

[poadeleted20]

Sometimes that is true....but not even close to all the time.

I'd like to know how (short of a 90-degree bank) an airplane can be turning (i.e., changing heading) without the outboard wing going faster through the air than the inboard wing. Can you explain that?

 

[FastEddieB]

Care to explain that one to me? Unless I am doing it wrong I have ALWAYS maintained a bank with ailerons.

I suspect you're doing it right and noticing it wrong.

As I said before, a shallow turn will require a small bit of aileron held in to cancel out the tendency of the plane to want to return to wings level.

But next time you're up, try a medium turn (20º to 30º typically) and really pay attention to your ailerons. You should note that you need aileron to roll into the turn and out of the turn but none (except for minor corrections) to hold the turn.

Oh, wait...

Thinking about it, that might have been what you meant - the tiny corrections to hold a given bank angle, not the need for aileron in the turn.

Is that what you meant? If so, I misunderstood.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Go back and read 'stick and rudder' again.

Once a bank is established, you maintain it with elevator. Very little aileron is used.

To maintain horizon on one point on the glare shield, it takes elevator and rudder. The plane is in a level climb or descent for all intents and purposes as far as the ailerons are concerned.

So explain to me how to use the elevator to get to a 45 degree bank turn if the current bank is more or less than 45 degrees. If I use elevator, I will climb or descend, but the bank doesn't change. If my bank isn't what I want, I use ailerons to fix it.

I am not comprehending how you change bank angle with elevator.

 

[EdFred]

I'm just wondering where I can get the medical procedure done to have my larynx relocated into my rectum like one of you has. Because you are completely talking out of your ass.

 

[txflyer]

Go back and read 'stick and rudder' again.

Once a bank is established, you maintain it with elevator. Very little aileron is used.

To maintain horizon on one point on the glare shield, it takes elevator and rudder. The plane is in a level climb or descent for all intents and purposes as far as the ailerons are concerned.

So explain to me how to use the elevator to get to a 45 degree bank turn if the current bank is more or less than 45 degrees. If I use elevator, I will climb or descend, but the bank doesn't change. If my bank isn't what I want, I use ailerons to fix it.

I am not comprehending how you change bank angle with elevator.

You roll into a bank with aileron. You maintain it with elevator with aileron's neutral, as in level flight, save for minor corrections.

 

[Henning]

I'm just wondering where I can get the medical procedure done to have my larynx relocated into my rectum like one of you has. Because you are completely talking out of your ass.

Assuming you're referring to me, if the mains are down and the nose is still up, or even if the mains are still off waiting for touch down, and I have a cross wind; if I take my feet off the rudder pedals the plane is going to weathervane into the wind. How do you prevent that from happening?

 

[Sac Arrow]

You roll into a bank with aileron. You maintain it with elevator with aileron's neutral, as in level flight, save for minor corrections.

Are you confusing bank with elevation maybe?

 

[EdFred]

Assuming you're referring to me, if the mains are down and the nose is still up, or even if the mains are still off waiting for touch down, and I have a cross wind; if I take my feet off the rudder pedals the plane is going to weathervane into the wind. How do you prevent that from happening?

No, it wasn't you. And I think that response is for a different thread.

 

[txflyer]

Are you confusing bank with elevation maybe?

Next time you're practicing steep turns, note where the aileron position is once you've established the bank. It will be neutral like level flight.

You maintain elevation with the elevator.

 

[redtail]

You roll into a bank with aileron. You maintain it with elevator with aileron's neutral, as in level flight, save for minor corrections.

I thought the elevator was used to compensate for the loss of a portion of the vertical component of lift, that turns the airplane(the horizontal component). The ailerons initiate and (with minor corrections), maintain the bank.

 

[Henning]

All I know is, I can feel that load through the flap handle. More force to put them down, should equate to more force pushing them up.

I get it. Aerodynamic force should be the same, as in the same amount of 'wind' traveling under the wing. Only now you've made the wing maybe 1.5 times heavier in the opposite direction the flaps deploy towards. The air is being compressed more.

Try it sometime in a manual flap plane if you don't believe it.

Could be because in a 2 G turn your hand & arm weigh twice as much? Pehaps you're slipping or skidding in the turn and building up extra air pressure against the fuselage? I've flown plenty of manual flap planes and never noticed.

 

[FastEddieB]

Next time you're practicing steep turns, note where the aileron position is once you've established the bank. It will be neutral like level flight.

As I said before, one definition of a steep turn is one where the overbanking tendency of the aircraft becomes apparent.

Hence, if your turn is steep enough, opposite aileron will be required to offset the overbanking tendency.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Go back and read 'stick and rudder' again.

Once a bank is established, you maintain it with elevator. Very little aileron is used.

To maintain horizon on one point on the glare shield, it takes elevator and rudder. The plane is in a level climb or descent for all intents and purposes as far as the ailerons are concerned.

Next time you're practicing steep turns, note where the aileron position is once you've established the bank. It will be neutral like level flight.

You maintain elevation with the elevator.

I agree with this, but that's not what you said...

 

[txflyer]

I thought the elevator was used to compensate for the loss of a portion of the vertical component of lift, that turns the airplane(the horizontal component). The ailerons initiate and (with minor corrections), maintain the bank.

Correct. We're saying the same thing just in a different way. The elevator turns the airplane after the aileron's have rolled it.

The aileron's go neutral once the bank is established.

 

[FastEddieB]

Could be because in a 2 G turn your hand & arm weigh twice as much? Pehaps you're slipping or skidding in the turn and building up extra air pressure against the fuselage? I've flown plenty of manual flap planes and never noticed.

My second Citabria had manual flaps and I'm pretty sure the faster I was going the harder they were to deploy. Which I think is logical because you're forcing them down against airflow under the wing, the force of which increases as the square of the increase in velocity.

To txflyer's point about the air being compressed more, ummm, no.

Air can be thought to be incompressible at GA speeds. Once it does start to compress, you get sonic booms - which not many of us have to concern ourselves with!

 

[redtail]

Correct. We're saying the same thing just in a different way. The elevator turns the airplane after the aileron's have rolled it.

The aileron's go neutral once the bank is established.

But the bank is not maintained with the elevator, the level turn is.

 

[EdFred]

As I said before, one definition of a steep turn is one where the overbanking tendency of the aircraft becomes apparent.

Hence, if your turn is steep enough, opposite aileron will be required to offset the overbanking tendency.

What?!??! You can't present an opposing viewpoint by using actual FACTS! That's Message Board 101!

 

[EdFred]

My second Citabria had manual flaps and I'm pretty sure the faster I was going the harder they were to deploy. Which I think is logical because you're forcing them down against airflow under the wing, the force of which increases as the square of the increase in velocity.

To txflyer's point about the air being compressed more, ummm, no.

Air can be thought to be incompressible at GA speeds. Once it does start to compress, you get sonic booms - which not many of us have to concern ourselves with!

Correct, and as you know, that has nothing to do with G load.

 

[txflyer]

But the bank is not maintained with the elevator, the turn is.

I'll capitulate to this statement.

 

[poadeleted20]

You roll into a bank with aileron. You maintain it with elevator with aileron's neutral, as in level flight, save for minor corrections.

In a stable turn, you control pitch with elevator inputs to maintain altitude, not bank angle. And while you'll probably need near neutral aileron to maintain bank angle in a medium bank (15-30 degrees) turn since the dihedral and airspeed differential effects on lift of the inboard/outboard wings are typically balanced in that range, in shallow/steep turns you'll need constant (albeit slight) aileron into/out of the turn (respectively) to maintain bank angle.

And this is all easy to demonstrate. I'd suggest you find a good CFI to help you do that.

 

[poadeleted20]

I thought the elevator was used to compensate for the loss of a portion of the vertical component of lift, that turns the airplane(the horizontal component). The ailerons initiate and (with minor corrections), maintain the bank.

You thought correctly.

 

[poadeleted20]

Correct. We're saying the same thing just in a different way. The elevator turns the airplane after the aileron's have rolled it.

You're the only one saying this. What turns the airplane after it's been rolled into a bank is the horizontal component of lift. The bank angle is both established and maintained with aileron. All the elevator is used to do in a turn is increase angle of attack to increase total lift to make up for the portion of total lift lost to the horizontal plane when the plane's wings are not level.

The aileron's go neutral once the bank is established.

Only in a medium bank, and they may not stay there even in that condition. In a shallow turn, you'll need aileron into the turn to maintain bank angle, and in a steep turn, you'll need aileron opposite the turn to maintain bank angle.

Again, easily demonstrated.

 

[txflyer]

Purely semantics and ego's at this point.

 

[poadeleted20]

Purely semantics and ego's at this point.

No, this is not semantics -- it's understanding the aerodynamic forces and controls involved, and explaining them in a way in which a trainee will understand them, and apply them correctly in flight.

 

[Henning]

My second Citabria had manual flaps and I'm pretty sure the faster I was going the harder they were to deploy. Which I think is logical because you're forcing them down against airflow under the wing, the force of which increases as the square of the increase in velocity.

To txflyer's point about the air being compressed more, ummm, no.

Air can be thought to be incompressible at GA speeds. Once it does start to compress, you get sonic booms - which not many of us have to concern ourselves with!

Faster yes, load factor does not increase speed nor does angle of bank though.

 

[FastEddieB]

Purely semantics and ego's at this point.

Very often a poor choice of words can be the first insight that a student or pilot is unclear on a concept.

Example, if I ask a student to describe ground effect and he or she says it's the result of the air being compressed under the wing, it's a springboard for discussion. It's not just semantics and any real understanding of ground effect involves teasing out misconceptions - such as the fact that it's because air compresses.

If I put forth something and it's pointed out to me it's factually wrong, my ego is just fine with it and I'm glad to have been corrected. That's how growth happens. I most assuredly do NOT want to continue to labor under misconceptions, nor to continue to give bad information.

 

[FastEddieB]

Faster yes, load factor does not increase speed nor does angle of bank though.

I thought you were referring to the effort required to deploy flaps at differing speeds, and saying you had never noticed a difference.

I must have misunderstood.

 

[txflyer]

No, this is not semantics -- it's understanding the aerodynamic forces and controls involved, and explaining them in a way in which a trainee will understand them, and apply them correctly in flight.

Anyone can cherry pick a post to death. We're saying the same thing with different words. I misspoke. You just witnessed a miracle. I was wrong once.

You establish a bank with ailerons. You maintain it with ailerons, you turn with the elevator.

Better?

 

[poadeleted20]

Anyone can cherry pick a post to death. We're saying the same thing with different words. I misspoke. You just witnessed a miracle. I was wrong once.

You establish a bank with ailerons. You maintain it with ailerons, you turn with the elevator.

Better?

Only if you remove the underlined portion. The only thing you do with the elevator in a turn is adjust pitch to maintain enough lift to maintain altitude in the turn. Telling people they "turn with the elevator" is going to get them to just pull harder when they want to turn faster, and that's how we get stall/spin accidents.

 

[Henning]

I thought you were referring to the effort required to deploy flaps at differing speeds, and saying you had never noticed a difference.

I must have misunderstood.

The issue was not speed, the issue was increased "weight/load on the wing" being able to go beyond Vfe...

 

[redtail]

Only if you remove the underlined portion. The only thing you do with the elevator in a turn is adjust pitch to maintain enough lift to maintain altitude in the turn. Telling people they "turn with the elevator" is going to get them to just pull harder when they want to turn faster, and that's how we get stall/spin accidents.

Which is what I should have said in my post. I was thinking it but failed to write it.

Thanks

 

[lr60plt]

Just roll near 90 degrees and pull.

 

[Alexb2000]

Just another point for those that don't believe there is a reason to have to put in flaps in a turn. At airports where they are pushing some tin it is common to be forced into a scenario where you have to apply flaps in a turn. Just an hour ago coming into KADS (Addison, TX) there were several aircraft landing and departing when I arrived. I was held at 1000 above TPA until mid-field downwind, I start descending, then abeam I get, "proceed straight to the numbers". So a 180 descending turn, while adding flaps, and slipping. Do you HAVE to do this, of course not, you can break off and get a 10 mile tour while they re-sequence you. At busy airports visual approaches often involve non-standard patterns, some of which require adding flaps in a turn. It's really no biggie IMO, but if students are being taught it's dangerous; they are not being prepared for the real world.

 

[lr60plt]

If students are being taught it's dangerous; they are not being prepared for the real world.

This is a good statement.

 

[txflyer]

Only if you remove the underlined portion. The only thing you do with the elevator in a turn is adjust pitch to maintain enough lift to maintain altitude in the turn. Telling people they "turn with the elevator" is going to get them to just pull harder when they want to turn faster, and that's how we get stall/spin accidents.

Not so, oh oracle of the sky. If you pull harder, with no increase in aileron roll, you go up and turn is decreased. It works the opposite as well. Yes, you will stall or land really hard if maintained.

I'll bet if I said the earth is round, some here would argue it isn't a perfect sphere.

I'll give you guys a mulligan, because when you're not up flying, you're like a bunch of PMS *******. Now, I have to go decide what tires I want to put on the 180. Another pair of BW's @ $2850, or some 8.50X6 at $500. Peace.

 

[FastEddieB]

Just another point for those that don't believe there is a reason to have to put in flaps in a turn.

And seriously, who might that be? I've repeatedly stipulated there might be times when a pilot will need flaps when turning and he or she should not hesitate because of a nearly infinitesimal chance of mechanical failure. At most, in my career I personally have found precious few times I've needed to to it, but that's just me™!

If students are being taught it's dangerous; they are not being prepared for the real world.

Here's how my presentation to a student might go:

"First, every time you reach for the flap switch, first glance at the airspeed indicator to make sure you're in the white arc. Do it every time and point to it and tell me you're doing it.

Second, we'll try not to put down flaps while turning. We'll do 10º on downwind, 20º on base, and go to full flaps on final. You should normally have plenty of time - plan ahead and you'll have more than enough time for flaps on the straight legs.

The reason is that sometimes one flap can fail, and if that happens, the plane will start what seems to be an uncommanded roll. You'll be in a slightly better position to recognize what's going on if you start from unbanked flight. It really hardly ever happens, but its still a good habit to get into."

Note in the second part the lack of the words "always", "never", "dangerous" or "hazardous". Admittedly the OP did paint it that way, and I've already stipulated it was overstated.

 

[ifconfig]

I'm stealing the "abandon thread" gif though not the reason for it.
I have never, ever heard of the elevators turning the aircraft.