Kritchlow
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2014
- Messages
- 7,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Kritchlow
So I guess the conclusion then is that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Yeah... I know.
Dbag's a plenty
Proper way to turn a Cessna 152?
- Thread starter TangoEchoAlpha
- Start date
Dbag's a plenty
Tell me...what visual cues are you using to tell your student that he's using too much or too little rudder on climb out when flying an airplane with not even a skid ball? Ever flown one like that, or is a Cherokee the most challenging airplane you've ever flown?
Kritchlow
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2014
- Messages
- 7,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Kritchlow
Well, you can see the nose swing the opposite direction of the bank, or forward of it... Thought that was student pilot 101.Tell me...what visual cues are you using to tell your student that he's using too much or too little rudder on climb out when flying an airplane with not even a skid ball? Ever flown one like that, or is a Cherokee the most challenging airplane you've ever flown?
Are you a CFI?
Now you're just playing dumb. You can climb out in a non-coordinated condition without the nose "swinging", or any bank angle. You seem to think non-coordination means some ham footed student flapping the rudder around like they're racing a pedal boat. Please continue to bequeath your lavish knowledge to those of us who can only dream of grasping such complex subject matter.
mkosmo
Pattern Altitude
The key is to not get upset when somebody else does it a different way and accomplished the same thing without negative consequences. Then we can discuss how I get a better skin off ;-)So I guess the conclusion then is that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Yeah... I know.
Kritchlow
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2014
- Messages
- 7,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Kritchlow
If you want to have an intelligent discussion on this I will be more than happy to do so. I also prefer to do it with an adult tone. If you choose to continue with the third grade comments, than perhaps you should take a breather and grow up a bit.
A note.. I specifically do not put my certificates and ratings in my signature, as I feel that is poor CRM. I choose not to intimidate others from expressing opinions, and would much rather solicit other viewpoints.
That said, this type of none sense truly shows why GA is in the mess it's in today. Everyone wants a "license to learn", but than argues the 20,000 HR ATP
Signed,
ATP AMEL - Typed C550, C560XL, C680, C750, A320
CPL ASEL
CFI ASMEL, AGI
~20,000 hours
~10,000 PIC jet
LOL.
All your jet hours are intimidating like the lifelong Greyhound bus driver is intimidating when it comes to discussions of basic car control.
Kritchlow
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2014
- Messages
- 7,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Kritchlow
LOL.
I should retract my last analogy as unfair. The Greyhound bus driver has vastly more hours actually manipulating the controls.
Don't know what your aviation experience is, but you are certainly an immature individual.
mkosmo
Pattern Altitude
I should retract my last analogy as unfair. The Greyhound bus driver has vastly more hours actually manipulating the controls.
Come on you two, play nice. Nobody is going to get hurt because seat-of-the-pants has no formal definition.
Sorry if it bruises you so badly that I'm not intimidated by the very mention of your thousands of hours letting jets carry you around.
Oh and who were the 'dbags aplenty' you were referring to earlier? I admit I'm a dbag when first confronted with dbaggery.
Kritchlow
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2014
- Messages
- 7,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Kritchlow
You know, I've been on other Internet forums and have been well liked. Never a sour word amongst members. I come here and face some of the most hostile people I have ever met. Not only on the Internet, but truly hostile people in general. It really turned me to fight back. it seems there are a chosen few here that can do no wrong, but if you're not not accepted into the club...
mkosmo
Pattern Altitude
Anonymity is a *****. We had a similar issue at work amongst a couple of branch locations and leaders flew us all out for a common social event (we worked, too) under the thought that if we broke bread together, the fighting would cease and discourse would be pleasant. It worked surprisingly well for most part. The Maryland crab cakes sure helped ;-)
One of these days I'll be able to make it to a POA meet up. I suspect there's a similar result amongst those who have gone. From casual observation, it sure seems so.
I met a couple of folks at Jay's party at Oshkosh when we stopped by briefly, but we got there late and it was dark and we were tired, so we didn't stay long.
Kritchlow
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2014
- Messages
- 7,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Kritchlow
Indeed.... I would bet dollars to donuts if I met most people here all would be more than fine. Not sure why the anonymity of the web forum brings out the worst in *some* people.
Thanks
SkyDog58
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2015
- Messages
- 14,601
- Location
- My own special place.
- Display Name
Display name:
Canis Non Grata
I agree. I think we can categorically state that we certainly wouldn't want to be put in a catatonic state from any of this cattle feces catapulting otherwise we might end up with a cataclysmic catastrophe.
Hey we agree...but that applies to you too. If you were actually as arrogant and pompous in person as you are on the interwebs, you wouldn't have many friends. I assume you are not. I mean that.
redtail
En-Route
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2011
- Messages
- 4,408
- Location
- 93 million miles from the sun
- Display Name
Display name:
Redtail
Kritchlow
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2014
- Messages
- 7,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Kritchlow
I truly never thought I was arrogant and pompous. Please show me where that was the case? I have indeed held to my beliefs as a pilot and tried to pass them along. I've been flying a long time and always thought that was a way to give back. Now, if a relative newbie 100 HR guy (not a dig, just a generic description) wants to argue about some ATC procedure and I stand my ground, it's only because I'm a reasonably seasoned pilot and have seen most things in aviation more times than most people here. I know if I were on the receiving end I would be a sponge trying to soak up some of the experience. Likewise, I ALWAYS listen and take into consideration everything a student pilot has to add. They just may have experienced something I have not.
Kritchlow
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2014
- Messages
- 7,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Kritchlow
I *think* we're good at the moment, so I'll try to respond to this one in a professional way..
To the amature private pilot, it may indeed seem like the airplane is carrying you around. We are flying on autopilots (as are many GA pilots) that can fly the entire route. That said, the flight time in the airline world is more about decision making, which the autopilot plays no role. Yes, we do every takeoff manually and land manually about 98% of the time. If it's an autoland that is even more intense than a hand flown, so....
I do believe a PP could fly an airliner at first try, but the biggest experience difference the light aircraft pilot would face is managing the energy on the way down. Not to mention auto thrust management.. It's a heavy airplane with a swept wing, and you need to slow for flap speed while going downhill. Not always an easy task. On landing you must flare about 30 feet off the ground. Totally unnatural at first, but the cockpit sits nearly 15 feet high.
There are many other airline procedures I could walk you through, but that would be boring mumbo-jumbo.
Point is... Don't underestimate airline flying.
FastEddieB
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2013
- Messages
- 11,444
- Location
- Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
- Display Name
Display name:
Fast Eddie B
It may seem defeatist, but...
...judicious use of the "ignore" function really pares away a lot of the crap posts.
...judicious use of the "ignore" function really pares away a lot of the crap posts.
Stearman
Pre-takeoff checklist
Maybe so, but you sure can feel it in your seat. Most of the planes I fly have no slip/skid indicator and we climb out fine. You can see and feel when you're not coordinated.
And this from someone with less than 200hrs. What am I missing?
Captain
Final Approach
Maybe so, but you sure can feel it in your seat. Most of the planes I fly have no slip/skid indicator and we climb out fine. You can see and feel when you're not coordinated.
And this from someone with less than 200hrs. What am I missing?
People fly uncoordinated all the time and don't know they're doing it.
Stearman
Pre-takeoff checklist
And on the OP's question, I don't understand why one would lead with the rudder. If there's no adverse yaw, you don't need any rudder.
If you're droning along in coordinated level flight and you poke a rudder, you are not in uncoordinated flight, however brief it may be. When you lead with the rudder, that's exactly what you're doing. You'll "catch up" to the ball with the bank but I don't understand how that can be considered good or correct technique.
Maybe I'll try it next time I'm up...might learn something new.
If you're droning along in coordinated level flight and you poke a rudder, you are not in uncoordinated flight, however brief it may be. When you lead with the rudder, that's exactly what you're doing. You'll "catch up" to the ball with the bank but I don't understand how that can be considered good or correct technique.
Maybe I'll try it next time I'm up...might learn something new.
Stearman
Pre-takeoff checklist
True, but my point is that a slip/skid indicator is not at all necessary to climb out in a coordinated fashion. It is possible to feel and see the need for right rudder in a climb.
FlySince9
En-Route
Maybe so, but you sure can feel it in your seat. Most of the planes I fly have no slip/skid indicator and we climb out fine. You can see and feel when you're not coordinated.
And this from someone with less than 200hrs. What am I missing?
The context of my post.
Stearman
Pre-takeoff checklist
I give up...this thread has me confused.
Yes, turning a 152 turns out to be much more difficult than anyone could have predicted.
This thread is pretty worn out, but FYI - we were saying the same thing. Kritchlow was implying that all out of coordination conditions can be easily seen visually - as in eyeballs outside the airplane. I asked how he would visually assess a non-coordinated climbout. He said he would see the nose "swing" opposite the direction of bank. I said that you can be stabilized in a climbout, uncoordinated without any nose 'swinging' or bank angle. Hence I was arguing that you could be uncoordinated with no visual cues outside the airplane telling you that you are uncoordinated...and that the feel in your seat can be used with great precision in these situations.That this idea is controversial or a "myth" is a new one on me in the history of aviation discussion on the internets.
Last edited:
FastEddieB
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2013
- Messages
- 11,444
- Location
- Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
- Display Name
Display name:
Fast Eddie B
Wolfgang Langeweisch agreed with the first part:
Note it's a skidding turn where "everything looks all right."
Yes, in theory a pilot can feel uncoordinated flight. But in practice, the cues are often missed.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Anytime someone throws out the I have x many hours, it's interpreted as "I have x many hours, so anything you say is irrelevant, bow to me you pariah," whether it's intended to sound that way or not. Same goes with trotting out all one's ratings. Which is why I have attempted to stop doing so in both cases and removed them from my signature.
Last edited:
Yep, between eyeballs outside, feel in the seat, sound of the airplane, instruments in the panel, stall horns, audible AOA, etc, it's been proven that anything short of a dope slap machine can be missed by pilots.
So I guess you takes your chances when you decide to turn a 152.
Last edited:
Kritchlow
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2014
- Messages
- 7,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Kritchlow
Well.. We agree on the ratings thing. I have only done that once when called for. Never put them in a sig. I just think that's wrong on many levels, including trying to stifle other opinions.
I think we agree on that.