Proper way to turn a Cessna 152?

TangoEchoAlpha

TangoEchoAlpha

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So my instructor said that to turn right, I would use right rudder then right aileron. (Or maybe, just maybe I may have misheard)

Which is the proper technique?

I read somewhere that using the rudder to initiate the turn can be dangerous especially at low speeds in the pattern because it can result in a spin.
 
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Use them both at the same time.

When the airspeed is low and the engine is at high power, it's trying to roll you to the left and yaw to the left. In this case, you will need more right rudder to keep the airplane coordinated in a right-hand turn.
 
Listen to your instructor, he is there for a reason.
 
My instructor taught me to think of a rod connecting my arm to my knee, arm does down knee goes forward. Left or right it works the same
 
Same time, but in all honesty leading with rudder is not going is not going to spin the aircraft unless you floor it and keep it there.
 
That may be a bit of an exaggeration, but not much.
 
Kritchlow said:
Same time, but in all honesty leading with rudder is not going is not going to spin the aircraft unless you floor it and keep it there.
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When I'm feeling lazy on a long cross country, I'll make minor corrections using rudder only :)
 
mkosmo said:
When I'm feeling lazy on a long cross country, I'll make minor corrections using rudder only :)
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I can think of a few times where "rudder turns" are the way to go.
 
Kritchlow said:
I can think of a few times where "rudder turns" are the way to go.
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My DPE for my private actually was visibly upset with me for not doing more rudder only turns in normal flight. He didn't like aileron induced drag... But I didn't want to bring up the rudder or skid drag and that it was 6 one way, half a dozen the other.
 
When flying something with a lot of adverse yaw, many people suggest "leading with rudder". Or, it could be that your instructor is trying to get you to actually use the pedals as something other than a foot rest.

You will, in actuality, use both at the same time, but "leading with rudder" is a way to remind your self to get your feet in the game up front instead of waiting for the yaw to happen and then fixing it.
 
TangoEchoAlpha said:
So my instructor said that to turn right, I would use right rudder then right aileron. (Or maybe, just maybe I may have misheard)

Which is the proper technique?

I read somewhere that using the rudder to initiate the turn can be dangerous especially at low speeds in the pattern because it can result in a spin.
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I tend to lead with rudder as it prevents 'tail wag' and people vomiting in the back seat, especially in turbulence. People are used to cars, so if they shift outward in a turn, they are totally fine with that motion, their ear is trained to match that input with the input their eyes are providing them. If you don't apply enough rudder, then you get adverse yaw at the beginning of the turn which especially in the back seat, causes an extra slosh in the inner ear that goes in the wrong direction of what the eye is expecting to see. This is why if you use the ailerons to pick up the wings in turbulence with a person in the seat behind you, there is a better than even chance there will be a chunky warmth enveloping you.

Now by 'lead' I don't mean any great delay. Done properly the ball won't leave the cage. Basically, instead of controlling bank angle with the ailerons and using the rudder to keep the ball centered, I use the rudder to set the bank angle and use the ailerons to keep the ball centered. It's just a matter of which one do you start and stop adding first.
 
jordane93 said:
This might be a repeat thread of a few months ago with leading with rudder:stirpot::popcorn:
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Yep, some people won't accept that physiology trumps and you do what is most comfortable for your passengers. The plane doesn't give a ****.
 
I know that in a Champ if you give it right aileron with no rudder you'll turn left.
 
Personally I think the whole coordinated rudder thing is overblown. It's really not noticeable if you crank in a turn. Bigger airplanes generally the pilot doesn't use rudder except for landing (or SE procedures).
 
Kritchlow said:
Personally I think the whole coordinated rudder thing is overblown. It's really not noticeable if you crank in a turn. Bigger airplanes generally the pilot doesn't use rudder except for landing (or SE procedures).
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Bigger planes often have a rudder-aileron interconnect that coordinates them for you. Cranking in aileron is also very bad habit to get into because at the bottom of the speed envelope, using the aileron to pick up the wing will result in breaking into a spin. This is not the control habit you want to be in when you are sticking a dead plane into someplace small and would prefer to survive.
 
Kritchlow said:
Personally I think the whole coordinated rudder thing is overblown. It's really not noticeable if you crank in a turn. Bigger airplanes generally the pilot doesn't use rudder except for landing (or SE procedures).
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You should go for a flight in a Taylorcraft, Champ, or Cub. That'd teach you. Yeah, adverse yaw is engineered out of bigger more modern aircraft, but he's flying a 150.
 
RyanShort1 said:
You should go for a flight in a Taylorcraft, Champ, or Cub. That'd teach you. Yeah, adverse yaw is engineered out of bigger more modern aircraft, but he's flying a 150.
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That'd teach me? Really?
 
Kritchlow said:
Personally I think the whole coordinated rudder thing is overblown. It's really not noticeable if you crank in a turn. Bigger airplanes generally the pilot doesn't use rudder except for landing (or SE procedures).
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For the record, I meant to say it's not noticeable UNLESSS you crank in a turn
 
Kritchlow said:
For the record, I meant to say it's not noticeable UNLESSS you crank in a turn
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In a typical soft entry turn, you're right, but once you start picking up wings the same way in turbulence, now the effects get multiplied and become noticeable. Best to be in the habit of 'driving with your feet'. Often in turbulence I leave the ailerons neutral and catch the wing drops with the rudder. That ends all the 'tail wagging' issues.
 
Try it both ways, keep your back relaxed, try to turn with just the ailerons and try to turn with just then rudder, once you have it right you'll feel the difference.
 
James331 said:
Try it both ways, keep your back relaxed, try to turn with just the ailerons and try to turn with just then rudder, once you have it right you'll feel the difference.
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Exactly, experiment to find out what is most comfortable, that's all that really counts. You'll quickly find that leading with the rudder is more comfortable.
 
My Archer requires little to no rudder in a turn to keep coordinated. I use more rudder pressure to counteract the forces on a full power climb than I do in a level turn.

Conversely, the Citabria I flew required a crapload of rudder to maintain something resembling coordinated flight in a turn.

I'd say the 152 was somewhere in the middle.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
My Archer requires little to no rudder in a turn to keep coordinated.
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Some things to consider...

1) A designer can pretty much design away the need for rudder "in a turn", though what we're really talking about is rudder to initiate, or roll out of, a turn.

There are several ways to increase parasitic drag on the lowering wing to exactly balance the increased induced drag on the rising wing. Frise-type ailerons are one way, and I think most Cessna high-wings utilize them.

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(And please note the use of the word "simultaneously" in the second paragraph.)

But that will only be in perfect balance at one particular airspeed - normally at or near normal cruise. One reason we practice slow flight is to see that more rudder is needed at slower speeds.

2) Bear in mind once in a medium turn, no aileron or rudder is required to maintain the turn. That really defines what a medium turn is. So the language in the copied text above is a bit off. No normal plane will need rudder, or aileron, in most turns once established.
 
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I was taught to use the rudder to keep the turn coordinated, ball centered. The really bad juju can happen when low and slow and trying to speed the turn up by using the rudder to bring the nose around and skidding.
 
PaulS said:
I was taught to use the rudder to keep the turn coordinated, ball centered. The really bad juju can happen when low and slow and trying to speed the turn up by using the rudder to bring the nose around and skidding.
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If you're really low and slow, rudder is the only thing you want to use since adding aileron will further increase the AOA of the one wing while decreasing the other, which if you are near critical AOA will stall the wing end you are trying to lift dropping you into a spin.

Go do a falling leaf stall sometime, it's all feet to keep the wings level. Put in some aileron and you immediately fall off the opposite direction. This is also why spin recovery is 'ailerons neutral.'
 
TommyG said:
Listen to your instructor, he is there for a reason.
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I would agree with you if it were not for the many incorrect things that instructors say/do as reported in these forums. The OP is an example.

Bob Gardner
 
TangoEchoAlpha said:
So my instructor said that to turn right, I would use right rudder then right aileron. (Or maybe, just maybe I may have misheard)

Which is the proper technique?

I read somewhere that using the rudder to initiate the turn can be dangerous especially at low speeds in the pattern because it can result in a spin.
Click to expand...

Was it in an FAA publication? Read the Airplane Flying Handbook, the Pilot's Guide to Aeronautical Knowledge, and similar pubs available at www.faa.gov. Don't believe that everything your instructor tells you is gospel...always check official documents and/or say "Show me where I can find that information."

Bob Gardner
 
Im also in the bad juju camp.

Rudder alone, like aileron, increases the angle of attack of one wing and decreases the other. It has the benefit of affecting the entire wing (not just the outboard section) and it is nearly impossible to stall the rudder so it is always there for you. Still, rudder won't keep you from stalling one wing first. The proper way to enter an intentional spin is using rudder without aileron. I see no reason not to use coordinated aileron and rudder in intentional slow flight. If you are coordinated you won't spin. However, rudder only on recovery if you do spin or drop a wing in a stall.

My problem with leading rudder in a normal turn is the mindset that rudder is used to steer the airplane as in a boat or car.

I have seen too many new pilots get "afraid" of steep banks and start ruddering around turns with shallow banks holding opposite aileron. The mind-set should always be to keep the ball centered in normal flight. Neither aileron nor rudder should be used to turn an aircraft, they are used to roll into and out of a bank.

Modern fly-by-wire passenger aircraft automatically turn coordinate the rudder and they don't lead with it.

So my position is, "rudder to get out of trouble". Otherwise, stick and rudder, "don't use one without the other"

Dave
 
My bad juju comment was specifically for trying to skid the nose around during a turn to final to get aligned to the runway, not trying to control a dropping wing near or during a stall. Just to clarify.
 
PaulS said:
My bad juju comment was specifically for trying to skid the nose around during a turn to final to get aligned to the runway, not trying to control a dropping wing near or during a stall. Just to clarify.
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Exactly the point I was trying to make. Steering with rudder can be bad. Using it to recover is good.
 
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