Proliferation of schools using callsigns

RussR

RussR

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It seems to me that a whole lot more flight schools are using "callsigns" on the radio now than there used to be. I'd say it's in the last few years, but that also coincides with me getting a new job where I end up at a LOT more smaller airports, so perhaps I'm just seeing it more.

Formerly, callsigns were mostly used by the airlines or the military. I flew into IXD a few months ago, and there was a "Pit Boss 21" in the pattern. Now, what's Pit Boss? I incorrectly assumed it was an ANG F-16 or something like that. Nope, typical trainer from a flight school, "Pit Boss" being chosen for Kansas City's love of BBQ Pits.

And of course there's the thousands of "Career Track 123" for ATP Flight School, and many, many others. We've had "Crimson" and "OState" around here for a long time, but it just seems like there are so many more recently.

I would opine that not having any indication of aircraft type in the radio calls is a safety issue. "Cessna 123" at least tells you something. "Bandido 123" could be anything from a 152 to a C-5.

Was there a recent policy change on this (applying for a school callsign), or has it always been this bad and I just haven't seen it due to the type of places I was flying?
 
"Bucky 123" flies out of Sanford (KSFB). They are now L-3 owned but the Bucky callsigns live on...
 
RussR said:
It seems to me that a whole lot more flight schools are using "callsigns" on the radio now than there used to be. I'd say it's in the last few years, but that also coincides with me getting a new job where I end up at a LOT more smaller airports, so perhaps I'm just seeing it more.

Formerly, callsigns were mostly used by the airlines or the military. I flew into IXD a few months ago, and there was a "Pit Boss 21" in the pattern. Now, what's Pit Boss? I incorrectly assumed it was an ANG F-16 or something like that. Nope, typical trainer from a flight school, "Pit Boss" being chosen for Kansas City's love of BBQ Pits.

And of course there's the thousands of "Career Track 123" for ATP Flight School, and many, many others. We've had "Crimson" and "OState" around here for a long time, but it just seems like there are so many more recently.

I would opine that not having any indication of aircraft type in the radio calls is a safety issue. "Cessna 123" at least tells you something. "Bandido 123" could be anything from a 152 to a C-5.

Was there a recent policy change on this (applying for a school callsign), or has it always been this bad and I just haven't seen it due to the type of places I was flying?
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heh, yeah, “Pit Boss”. IXD is my home airport.
 
Aviator College, Fort Pierce, FL (KFPR) - Whitecap
Skyborne Academy (formerly Flight Safety), Vero Beach - Skyflight
 
Here at Goodyear AZ the United Airlines "Aviate" academy uses "Varney" for their Cirrus fleet -- homage to Varney Airlines, a UAL predecessor company. I was hoping they'd use "Marvin", as in UAL's old nickname "Marvin Mainliner".

Screen Shot 2023-06-30 at 7.23.02 AM.jpg
 
RussR said:
I would opine that not having any indication of aircraft type in the radio calls is a safety issue. "Cessna 123" at least tells you something. "Bandido 123" could be anything from a 152 to a C-5.
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It's a missed opportunity to share information, yes. If you're really concerned about it, you could try, "Bandido 123, say type aircraft." However, within a couple of calls you'll have a pretty good idea how fast they're moving. And ADSB-in is better than any radio call--you can see speed and position right there, no thinking required.
 
Jim_R said:
It's a missed opportunity to share information, yes. If you're really concerned about it, you could try, "Bandido 123, say type aircraft." However, within a couple of calls you'll have a pretty good idea how fast they're moving. And ADSB-in is better than any radio call--you can see speed and position right there, no thinking required.
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For those that HAVE ADSB-in.
 
I get your point, and certainly can't speak for all flight schools, but many have followed the proper protocol and received assigned call-signs from the FAA to use. One we hear a lot of is "Minn-State", which is the University of Mankato's aircraft. I can see where it can help when a flight school has a fleet of trainers with very similar tail numbers, as they do. They have over 40 aircraft all with MK tail numbers. Minn-State 42, Minn-State 43 is a little easier than 424MK, 434MK, etc., especially when a bunch of them are on CTAF or Center frequencies together.
 
Spartan School of Aeronautics goes by call sign "Skelly" in Tulsa. References Skelly Oil of historical significance in the Tulsa region as well as the founder of Spartan Aviation (despite him not being a pilot himself, was a big aviation proponent).
 
USAF IPT based at KPUB uses Tiger (after they solo), but that's military. I forget the USAF Academy call signs, haven't been south of Denver in a while. CAP has FAA approval to use CAPxxx. Angel Flight has FAA approval to use "AngelFlight" but only during the actual flight, not if re-positioning.

One of the "pro" flight schools in the area has a call sign (forget what it is) but at this point, none of the many flight schools along the Front Range (Longmont to Pueblo in Colorado) use call signs. Should that happen, I dread the day.

The many schools along the Front Range have carved up airspace and freqs, I have no clue if the FAA has approved. If you're curious, the Colorado Pilots Assoc (coloradopilots.org) has published a map, downloadable to ForeFlight of all the areas.

This is a good idea because the area on the NW side of Denver (Longmont, Boulder, Erie and Jeffco) has always been a nightmare with all the training and confusion on the radios.

https://coloradopilots.org/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=612720&module_id=540533

Freakin' huge! And PITA for us that just want to go fly. Who knows if the students understand and pay attention to the marked areas?

PracticeAreas_2024105882.jpg


On the other hand, it's an attempt to be "good neighbors" to the rest of the pilot community. But for anyone not local and/or not aware of this, what a nightmare! Imagine someone coming in from the east and not knowing about this. Surprise!

USAF (Academy & IPT) has always had a map of training areas in Colorado a little bit is part of the CPA download. You can find those on the CDOT Div of Aeronautics aviation map download or get a paper copy.

https://www.codot.gov/programs/aeronautics
 
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No change that I’ve heard of. If it’s a “nationally registered flight school” they can apply for a special callsign with the FAA. They could also get approval for a local callsign with ATC such as what we use in EMS.
 
I've noticed in the last year or two that in and around Nashville there's lots more "Career Track" and "Blue Raider" (Middle TN State) callsigns on the radio. At least with MTSU you know they're all DA-40s. Prior to that everyone just knew NXXXMT was a training flight from there.
 
Then you have UND who changed their school mascot from the Fighting Sioux to Fighting Hawks, but their call signs are still "Sioux". Except student solos which are "Green"
 
Noticed that trend too, even just over the past couple of years.

The ATP by me now refers to themselves as "career track", I don't remember them all doing that a year ago or so.

Also the place where I got my private license now uses the company name as a call sign. Which seems odd because they only have a couple of planes...

All the western Michigan planes are now "sky bronco" IIRC. I dont know if that's a new thing but I don't remember them calling themselves that a couple of years ago...
 
mark.staggs said:
At least with MTSU you know they're all DA-40s.
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Well, you only know that if you're familiar with MTSU's aviation department. But most pilots passing through would have no idea that Blue Raider is a DA-40. Now if they called themselves "Diamond 123", then at least we'd have some idea.
 
“Pit Boss” is used at my airport, but it’s towered. Tower may clear “Pit Boss xxx” to land, then clear someone else “number 2 following the Warrior on short final” or similar. I don’t know what the Pit Boss planes use at non-towered airports.
 
MTSU has been using Blue Raider as long as I can remember. They have more than just DA40s. There was a Blue Raider PA44 on final the other day to CHA.
 
Are you guys hearing these call signs outside of the home field and adjacent approach environments? “Purdue XX” for the University flight program and “Vader XX” for the local flight school at KLAF. They seemed to revert to their make & tail numbers away from Class D and the surrounding approach control…at least that’s what I think I remember but I don’t pay attention anymore.
 
Typically these are local letters of agreement with specific ATC facilities that see these callsigns a lot.
 
Velocity173 said:
MTSU has been using Blue Raider as long as I can remember. They have more than just DA40s. There was a Blue Raider PA44 on final the other day to CHA.
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Looks like the Blue Raider callsign officially started in 2019, maybe they unofficially used it before then. I know I used to hear a LOT of "Diamond 123MT <position>..." when I've temporarily been based at Murfreesboro in the past. I knew they had other types, too, but your reminder's a good one. I took the time to educate myself. Looks like it's about a 10-1 ratio of DA-40s to PA-44s.

So, I generally agree it'd be easier to know the type of these trainer/callsign planes, especially when entering a swarm of them or when based on or near their training areas.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
For those that HAVE ADSB-in.
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It's 2023. If someone's serious about maximizing info in the cockpit for safety purposes, adding ADSB-in is 100x more effective than having all pilots announce their aircraft type on the radio.
 
mark.staggs said:
Looks like the Blue Raider callsign officially started in 2019, maybe they unofficially used it before then. I know I used to hear a LOT of "Diamond 123MT <position>..." when I've temporarily been based at Murfreesboro in the past. I knew they had other types, too, but your reminder's a good one. I took the time to educate myself. Looks like it's about a 10-1 ratio of DA-40s to PA-44s.

So, I generally agree it'd be easier to know the type of these trainer/callsign planes, especially when entering a swarm of them or when based on or near their training areas.
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Yeah, it would be easier to hear a type associated with the N number. First time I heard Blue Raider at CHA, I thought it might be military. One of my medcrew from the local area explained that’s the name associated with MTSU.
 
Lindberg said:
:no::no::no:
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I'm not saying with ADSB-in you don't need any radio calls. I'm saying the combo of "rando123 on 3 mile final straight-in" plus a glance at the tablet screen is better than "Baron123 on 3 mile final". I don't know whether that Baron is doing 100kts or 150kts or 85kts because I don't know Barons. But if I need to know that, I can look for the dot that's lined up 3 miles out and see what speed it's showing.
 
The FAA publishes a list of callsigns.. Odds are good that Kilo Charlie just has a "local" approval for Pit-Boss. They weren't using that when I was at IXD, so I assume it's new-ish. Outside of Kansas City area, I assume they go back to their tailnumber.
 
I don’t mind callsigns associated with a particular organization and operating IAW an LOA. On the controller side, some of the callsigns and squawks are preloaded in the software. In some cases, the controller doesn’t have to do any manual typing. Makes for a more efficient system. Now, random N numbers out there wanting their own callsign? Yeah, that ain’t gonna happen.
 
RussR said:
It seems to me that a whole lot more flight schools are using "callsigns" on the radio now…

Formerly, callsigns were mostly used by the airlines or the military. I flew into IXD a few months ago, and there was a "Pit Boss 21" in the pattern. Now, what's Pit Boss? I incorrectly assumed it was an ANG F-16 or something like that. Nope, typical trainer from a flight school, "Pit Boss" being chosen for Kansas City's love of BBQ Pits.

I would opine that not having any indication of aircraft type in the radio calls is a safety issue. "Cessna 123" at least tells you something. "Bandido 123" could be anything from a 152 to a C-5.

Was there a recent policy change on this (applying for a school callsign), or has it always been this bad and I just haven't seen it due to the type of places I was flying?
Click to expand...
Regardless, on initial radio call (or on self announce at untowered sirport) pilot should include AC type- ie “San Carlos ground, archer bandito 41”
Analogous to call up with n number.
 
Jim_R said:
It's 2023. If someone's serious about maximizing info in the cockpit for safety purposes, adding ADSB-in is 100x more effective than having all pilots announce their aircraft type on the radio.
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Since when has ADSB in the cockpit had aircraft type?????
 
Jim_R said:
My $100 Stratux is dual-band and if you're in the pattern with someone, they're in range.
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Oh yeah, if they're ADSB-Out . . .I don't see much of anything else down there - someone here posted a link of the ground station coverage areas - our airport isn't well served.
 
Pinecone said:
Since when has ADSB in the cockpit had aircraft type?????
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Presumably the primary value of hearing an aircraft type in a radio call is to enhance situational awareness of the aircraft in question. ADSB will give you position and speed of other aircraft, mitigating the situational awareness concern.
 
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Sundancer said:
Oh yeah, if they're ADSB-Out . . .I don't see much of anything else down there - someone here posted a link of the ground station coverage areas - our airport isn't well served.
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The OP is talking about flight schools making radio calls without including aircraft type, presumably causing ambiguity in other pilots' situational awareness. ADSB can mitigate that issue. Are flight school aircraft flying without ADSB out?

In your area, are planes without ADSB out making calls that don't include the aircraft type? If not, then you don't have the "problem" the OP has.
 
ERAU uses Riddle123 at towered airports and Echo Romeo 123 at non-towered fields. 747 Patterns everywhere.
 
Jim_R said:
The OP is talking about flight schools making radio calls without including aircraft type, presumably causing ambiguity in other pilots' situational awareness. ADSB can mitigate that issue. Are flight school aircraft flying without ADSB out?

In your area, are planes without ADSB out making calls that don't include the aircraft type? If not, then you don't have the "problem" the OP has.
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Is there a requirement for ADSB-In now that I missed? Because most of the aircraft I fly don't have it.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I get your point, and certainly can't speak for all flight schools, but many have followed the proper protocol and received assigned call-signs from the FAA to use. One we hear a lot of is "Minn-State", which is the University of Mankato's aircraft. I can see where it can help when a flight school has a fleet of trainers with very similar tail numbers, as they do. They have over 40 aircraft all with MK tail numbers. Minn-State 42, Minn-State 43 is a little easier than 424MK, 434MK, etc., especially when a bunch of them are on CTAF or Center frequencies together.
Click to expand...

At flights schools where the young CFI staff decides it’s cool to enact a call sign and it is not FAA approved, it is an indicator of poor supervision by flight school.
 
Lindberg said:
Is there a requirement for ADSB-In now that I missed? Because most of the aircraft I fly don't have it.
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No, of course not. But if someone's going to complain about behaviors that create a perceived deficiency in cockpit situational awareness and they're not using ADSB-in, then they're going to lose a lot of credibility with me. If you're really serious about maximizing your situational awareness in the cockpit, then you're going to prioritize getting ADSB-in. There are dozens of affordable ADSB-in solutions today, including portable ones.

Is ADSB-in the be-all, end-all, solution to everything? Of course not. But it's a huge improvement over NOT having ADSB-in.
 
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