Procedure Turn Barb

akpilot907

akpilot907

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Let's say we have advised ATC that we will be conducting the NDB RWY4L, full procedure under own navigation into Nenana, AK (PANN).

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1313/01223N4L.PDF

After crossing the IAF (ICW) and established on the outbound course of 231*, at w/e distance the pilot (He/She) determines is adequate enough to fly out (Remaining within protected area of 10nm; as described in profile view), he/she turns left to a heading of 186*. The aircraft flys outbound on the procedure turn for (w/e amount of time the PIC deems appropriate) but for example's sake, let's say (60 seconds). Now... upon reaching (60 seconds), which way should the aircraft turn? Left or right? I've always remained within the protected area by turning towards the opposite direction first turned. (in this case, I would turn "Right" to 006* to get established inbound...)

I read somewhere of a neat mind strategy that pilot's can use, "Which ever side the barb is on, complete the arrow by drawing the absent barb on the other side, thus completing the arrow." What do ya'll think?
 
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I always turn towards the "outbound side." In other words, after the turn I wind up farther out on the approach instead of closer in. But, I fly piston singles, not jets. Might be different for jet drivers.
 
If you remain within the protected area it doesn't matter much.
 
Almost always* turn toward the outbound side. Gives you more time and distance to get established on final and descend.

Let's say you fly outbound for 60 seconds (a generally taught number) on the 231 bearing before turning to 186. 60 seconds at 90 knots is only 1.5 nm. So you turn to 186, turn left back around to 006. You might be intercepting final a mere 1 nm from the NDB. And since the NDB is about 1000 feet down the runway, that gives you a mere 5000 feet of distance to get established on final, descend from 2400 MSL to 1000 MSL, get the airport in sight and descend to 368 MSL to land. That's a lot to do in less than a mile, and a pretty steep descent.

Just think if the wind was from the west or SW, even just a little bit. You could easily be rolling out on final almost over the NDB (and the airport)!

Of course, you can go outbound on 231 for 2 minutes, that would give you more time, and is what I recommend. But certainly turn to the outbound side to give yourself a little more time and space.

Now, if the wind is from the east, that will help your turn.

Know your wind and how it's going to affect your PT.

* I'm sure there are exceptions to this, just like everything else.
 
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akpilot907 said:
I read somewhere of a neat mind strategy that pilot's can use, "Which ever side the barb is on, complete the arrow by drawing the absent barb on the other side, thus completing the arrow." What do ya'll think?
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Eh? First which side of the arrow the barb is on is not cartographically significant. There are only TWO things you need to know about the procedure turn arrow: that it is there (hence it's pilot choice as to what sort of course reversal to make) and which side of the approach course it is on. Second, I don't understand what you're saying. After you're done coloring on your approach plate which way do you turn.

I'll look at the winds. Most of the time, I'm with the others and turn to the outbound side. However, if I'm being blown away from the airport, no point in prolonging things and I'll turn towards the inbound. Similarly, no reason flying miles away from the course if your outbound procedure turn has a tail wind. I modulate that 60 seconds.
 
akpilot907 said:
Let's say we have advised ATC that we will be conducting the NDB RWY4L, full procedure under own navigation into Nenana, AK (PANN).

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1313/01223N4L.PDF

After crossing the IAF (ICW) and established on the outbound course of 231*, at w/e distance the pilot (He/She) determines is adequate enough to fly out (Remaining within protected area of 10nm; as described in profile view), he/she turns left to a heading of 186*. The aircraft flys outbound on the procedure turn for (w/e amount of time the PIC deems appropriate) but for example's sake, let's say (60 seconds). Now... upon reaching (60 seconds), which way should the aircraft turn? Left or right? I've always remained within the protected area by turning towards the opposite direction first turned. (in this case, I would turn "Right" to 006* to get established inbound...)

I read somewhere of a neat mind strategy that pilot's can use, "Which ever side the barb is on, complete the arrow by drawing the absent barb on the other side, thus completing the arrow." What do ya'll think?
Click to expand...

How Jeppesen depicts it:

PANNNDB4L_zps61129de1.jpg
 
AK, I have also read that you turn toward the barb, but the Jep plates always have you turning as shown above. My experience (though limited) is that if you turn toward the barb you will be closer to the runway than you want to be. The important part is to remain within the protected area as Moose said.
 
flyingron said:
Eh? First which side of the arrow the barb is on is not cartographically significant. There are only TWO things you need to know about the procedure turn arrow: that it is there (hence it's pilot choice as to what sort of course reversal to make) and which side of the approach course it is on. Second, I don't understand what you're saying. After you're done coloring on your approach plate which way do you turn.

I'll look at the winds. Most of the time, I'm with the others and turn to the outbound side. However, if I'm being blown away from the airport, no point in prolonging things and I'll turn towards the inbound. Similarly, no reason flying miles away from the course if your outbound procedure turn has a tail wind. I modulate that 60 seconds.
Click to expand...

This is what I was talking about...
 

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aterpster said:
How Jeppesen depicts it:

PANNNDB4L_zps61129de1.jpg
Click to expand...

Sweetness! So, I've been doing it correctly all along... Feww. I brought this question up to the forum because I was shooting approaches with CAP and my safety pilot asked me why I turned back the opposite direction I first turned... I explained to him like you guys mentioned above (Closer to runway... brings you closer to becoming established on final approach course.. etc) he wouldn't listen. I guess the saying goes, "There are old and bold pilots, but no OLD BOLD pilots!" :goofy:

THANKS FOR THE ADVICE EVERYONE!
 
Never heard of anyone doing two turns in the same direction on a PT barb. All the guidance/diagrams I've read show an opposite turn. As Arterpster said if the winds are strong you might find yourself intercepting pretty far down in the FAC.

Just do an 80/260 all the time and you won't have any problems. :)
 
I like 80/260's. But I can't remember the last time I did a PT.
 
Velocity173 said:
Never heard of anyone doing two turns in the same direction on a PT barb. All the guidance/diagrams I've read show an opposite turn. As Arterpster said if the winds are strong you might find yourself intercepting pretty far down in the FAC.

Just do an 80/260 all the time and you won't have any problems. :)
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Yeah, that's what I always thought! If was up to me, I'd pull some intense 90* banks to get back on the final approach course... in... IMC :hairraise:
 
akpilot907 said:
Now... upon reaching (60 seconds), which way should the aircraft turn? Left or right?
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The classic method would be to turn right (opposite the original displacement turn). However, it is not a regulatory requirement. By the regulations, the only thing that matters is that you stay in the protected airspace. So, the real question is how far you are from the navaid, i.e., whether turning right will still keep you inside the 10-mile limit, or turning left will drop you onto the final segment too close to the navaid to get down to MDA in time to find the airport "in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and for operations conducted under part 121 or part 135 unless that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing".

Note that at the speed of most planes we here are flying, a left-right PT will establish you inbound about a 1 to 1-1/2 miles further out than where you started the reversal maneuver. So, if you've selected an outbound leg time which starts the reversal maneuver about 5-6 miles out, then a left-right PT is what you want. OTOH, if you're late getting established outbound, or there's a bigger wind than you thought (e.g., your GPS shows you 7-8 miles out at the end of the planned outbound time), then a left-left reversal maneuver will keep you from busting the 10-mile limit.

IOW, it's all about planning and situational awareness. Personally, on a navaid-on-the-field procedure like this one, I usually start the reversal maneuver at about 5-6 miles on the GPS (or without a GPS, plan my outbound leg time to make that distance good based on airspeed/wind) and use a left-right (or right-left if the barb points the other way) reversal maneuver.
 
RussR said:
Let's say you fly outbound for 60 seconds (a generally taught number)...
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Anyone who teaches any specific number is doing their trainee a serious disservice. The distance you need to use depends on altitude to be lost both in and out (not to mention wind), and can vary anywhere from as little as 15 seconds on the VOR 29 at BDR to up to 3 minutes on the VOR/DME 6 at PSK. Study both charts and you'll see why I say that.
 
'round here we call her "Climb to Pattern Altitude Barb"
 
The 10nm protected area, that's off of the NAVAID, correct? or FAF? I believe its the Navaid
 
Ron Levy said:
Anyone who teaches any specific number is doing their trainee a serious disservice. The distance you need to use depends on altitude to be lost both in and out (not to mention wind), and can vary anywhere from as little as 15 seconds on the VOR 29 at BDR to up to 3 minutes on the VOR/DME 6 at PSK. Study both charts and you'll see why I say that.
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I see! Three minutes flying the outbound procedure leg will give you plenty of time to loose those 2,000 ft at 500ft/min descent!
 
akpilot907 said:
The 10nm protected area, that's off of the NAVAID, correct? or FAF? I believe its the Navaid
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Sometimes one, sometimes the other. You have to look at the approach chart to see which. In this case, there is no FAF, and it's off the NDB.
 
Captain said:
I like 80/260's. But I can't remember the last time I did a PT.
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I'll be doing one tomorrow night for quarterly training. I'm sure I'll find a way to screw it up. :)
 
akpilot907 said:
The 10nm protected area, that's off of the NAVAID, correct? or FAF? I believe its the Navaid
Click to expand...

The procedure turn fix, which is clearly depicted on the approach chart.

It may be a nav aid. More often it is not.
 
Ron Levy said:
Anyone who teaches any specific number is doing their trainee a serious disservice. The distance you need to use depends on altitude to be lost both in and out (not to mention wind), and can vary anywhere from as little as 15 seconds on the VOR 29 at BDR to up to 3 minutes on the VOR/DME 6 at PSK. Study both charts and you'll see why I say that.
Click to expand...

Oh, I agree. It's what I was taught, but not what I teach. So I suspect others may have been taught the same thing.
 
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akpilot907 said:
Doesn't look like it's working for me... I'm liking the website, nice setup you got!
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It only works if you can see Flash movies. In a few weeks I'll convert them to tablet devices too, but don't have the time yet.

dtuuri
 
RussR said:
Oh, I agree. It's what I was taught, but not what I teach. So I suspect others may have been taught the same thing.
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After giving I don't know how many instrument refresher training sessions, I know others have been taught to always use some "standard" fixed outbound leg time for PT's (usually two minutes rather than 60 seconds). But by careful selection of a couple of approaches to fly, it's easy to prove to even the most hard headed pilot that it's not a viable practice. :wink2:
 
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Ron Levy said:
After giving I don't know how many instrument refresher training sessions, I know others have been taught to always use some "standard" fixed outbound leg time for PT's (usually two minutes rather than 60 seconds). But by careful selection of a couple of approaches to fly, it's easy to prove to even the most hard headed pilot that it's not a viable practice. :wink2:
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I won't say I was taught that, in fact I wasn't taught anything specific at all about outbound leg time by any CFII I've flown with, but the IR pilot who got me interested in instrument flying certainly practiced that way (60 seconds outbound), and it's what I've always done in training. I don't think I'd ever have been anal about it if I was on an approach where it was clearly not appropriate, but it's good to know that it's not a universal rule. Thanks.
 
It pretty rare to have to fly a course reversal (unless you're out of radar contact).
 
dans2992 said:
It pretty rare to have to fly a course reversal (unless you're out of radar contact).
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Depends on where you are, out here in the hinterlands VTF are a rare luxury. Procedure turns, holding patterns and position reports are common fare.
 
rbridges said:
what everyone else said, I was taught to turn outbound direction, too.
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Yeah, that's the usual way to turn. I suppose if one found one's self blown outbound so far that there'd be a danger of busting the 10 mile limit one might elect to make the turn the other way tho'.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Yeah, that's the usual way to turn. I suppose if one found one's self blown outbound so far that there'd be a danger of busting the 10 mile limit one might elect to make the turn the other way tho'.
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I agree with John -- there will be days when due to a combination of circumstances you find yourself at 8 miles outbound on the 45 displacement leg, and then you probably want to make the 180 reversal turn in, not out.
 
Even into one of my popular instrument fields (the nearest place to my grass strip with an ILS), where ZTL is glad to give vectors to final, it's faster for me to head to the IAF and do the PT. To get me into position for a vector with a reasonable cut at the final course involves swinging me way out away from the airport.
 
Captain said:
I like 80/260's. But I can't remember the last time I did a PT.
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Nice thing about an 80/260 is that it does not involve timing; it does require thinking about the wind, however.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Nice thing about an 80/260 is that it does not involve timing; it does require thinking about the wind, however.

Bob Gardner
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So with an 80/260 do you time it outbound before you do the "80/" or do you just roll into the turn as soon as you cross the fix?
 
peerlesscowboy said:
So with an 80/260 do you time it outbound before you do the "80/" or do you just roll into the turn as soon as you cross the fix?
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It's like any other PT -- the amount of time you fly outbound before doing the reversal depends on how much altitude you have to lose during the PT.

BTW, the advantage of the "standard" 45/180 reversal over the 80/260 is that the headings to use for the "standard" reversal are printed on the chart, so no mental math is required. For many, that helps reduce the mental workload just a wee bit, and in my book, anything that reduces mental workload is good.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's like any other PT -- the amount of time you fly outbound before doing the reversal depends on how much altitude you have to lose during the PT.

BTW, the advantage of the "standard" 45/180 reversal over the 80/260 is that the headings to use for the "standard" reversal are printed on the chart, so no mental math is required. For many, that helps reduce the mental workload just a wee bit, and in my book, anything that reduces mental workload is good.
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I agree, I'm just trying to understand what could be the advantage to the 80/260 and why our old friend Bob would say it doesn't require timing:confused:
I'd say the biggest advantage to the "standard" 45/180 and I assume why it's the method depicted on the charts is it's flexibility. Unlike the other commonly used methods you can ALWAYS make it work, under any wind conditions and on any IAP that calls for a procedure turn.
 
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