Private Pilot Limitations

david0tey

david0tey

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I have a neighbor who wants me to fly him to an airport a few times this summer about an hour away (4 hours driving) He also says he will pay whatever he is allowed to pay me (which is the pro rata share, obviously). The way I understand the rule is that I must have a reason to fly down there other than to take this passenger. My question is, if I just fly him down, go to the beach for an hour (airport is right on the water), and then come back, is this legal? I realize that I would be finding a loophole in the system, but could I legally do this per the FAA? I just got my private and I really don't want to do anything to screw it up. If it helps, I have been looking for destinations that I could go to for day trips to the beach.
 
The regulations don't prohibit you, as a private pilot, from performing a favor for a friend by flying him or her somewhere they need to be. You just can't accept anything beyond their pro rata share of the flight costs.
 
Take a trip to the beach, take your buddy with you, do not file a 1099 for any money he may give you, done.
 
Henning said:
Take a trip to the beach, take your buddy with you, do not file a 1099 for any money he may give you, done.
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Everybody on here see's things so clearly. I always overthink everything.
 
To my knowledge there is no restriction on a person buying avgas. If a friend wants to store his gas in your plane, so be it. :rolleyes: :)
 
Why bother with the beach? If the FAA asks, just tell them your purpose for going there was to use the restroom at the FBO (you really like the hand soap).
 
MickYoumans said:
To my knowledge there is no restriction on a person buying avgas. If a friend wants to store his gas in your plane, so be it. :rolleyes: :)
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Or just do some "hours building" flight time too. I'd use it as an excuse to do touch and go items, pattern work, slow flight, et al. I guess it depends on your flight hours too ;)
 
Another good rule of thumb: when in doubt about the legality of flying plans, do not inquire on the Internet.
Just sayin'. :wink2:

In addition to the "pro rata" rule, you're not supposed to "hold out" to provide transportation as opposed to giving rides (without fulfilling commercial, charter or air taxi requirements for pilot and plane)... but exactly what "holding out" means depends on the situation.
Like if there's an accident or reportable incident, and word gets back to the Feds that you had made a deal of some kind to help someone "commute". The percentage of costs covered by the passenger will not be the issue, then... there could be bigger problems.
But if it just so happens that this guy hitches a ride a few times this summer when you were going there anyway... no problem.
 
The textbook answer, which based on your post I think you understand, is that unless you were planning to fly to that destination on that day whether your friend was going or not, you cannot accept one thin dime of money or one drop of gas from your friend. So, if the FAA ever asks, make sure your answer to them is consistent with that rule.

Beyond that, don't do anything which might give your friend cause to complain to the FAA about the flight, and don't let folks in general think you're willing to fly people places for shared costs.
 
Say he wanted to go with you on your flight to the destination, and he paid the pro rata share. Beyond that don't say a damn thing. People take this reg way too seriously. I would love to meet somebody who was violated for this, because they should have a dunce hat on whenever they fly.

Oh ya, make him buy you lunch but don't include that in your explanation to the FAA.
 
Ron Levy gave you the exact answer per FAR's. Henning gave you the pratical answer.
 
Seems like a nice day to go for a ride.

Now, if I fly myself somewhere for no reason at all other than I didn't have anything else better to do, can I pay for my own gas?
 
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david0tey said:
The way I understand the rule is that I must have a reason to fly down there other than to take this passenger.
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Just to fly around, spend time with your friend is good enough as a reason.
 
Just remember the FAA knows nothing, except what you tell them.
 
jesse said:
Or what some other airport nark tells them.
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...and, depending on the number of "few times" times this occurs, the most likely "airport nark" will be the small Part 135 operator who paid the bucks and spent the time to meet the requirements for transporting passengers for hire and sees some guy loading baggage in David's plane and David returning empty yet again.
(which is the pro rata share, obviously)
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Just in case it wasn't clear from some the answers, "pro rata share" only applies to a joint purpose flight as Ron described. Otherwise, "whatever he is allowed to pay me" is zero.
 
"I can't accept any money for this whatsoever, but I can't help it if some falls out of your pocket and I find it in the plane the next day or so."
 
I don't really care too much what the FAA thinks about something like this. What my insurance company says is the issue. I believe my policy prohibits flying for hire and should an accident occur, I'd hate to see a problem with insurance.
 
hiflier said:
I don't really care too much what the FAA thinks about something like this. What my insurance company says is the issue. I believe my policy prohibits flying for hire and should an accident occur, I'd hate to see a problem with insurance.
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Right, do you understand the criteria for'for hire' to exist? This situation is not representative.
 
So basically, If I am flying him for the purpose of flying him, I need to pay for the whole flight? If i want to accept money for the expenses, we both have to have a purpose for going?
 
I think it's a common purpose, like you both want to go to the beach. Cap'n Ron is the guy that knows how this stuff works.
 
david0tey said:
So basically, If I am flying him for the purpose of flying him, I need to pay for the whole flight? If i want to accept money for the expenses, we both have to have a purpose for going?
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To follow the letter of the rule you have that correct. You can fly anyone anywhere on a PP so long as you pay the bill.
 
hiflier said:
I think it's a common purpose, like you both want to go to the beach. Cap'n Ron is the guy that knows how this stuff works.
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The common purpose is location and date only. If after landing at the destination airport, I, the pilot, head east to the beach, and you, the passenger, head west into the city for a show, that's fine as long as I'm doing what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it regardless of your desires or plans.
 
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Ron is correct about the letter of the law as I understand it (and he understands it loads better than me). Thus it would be contrary to the FARS if in the event an incident or accident occurred, you (refl.) just told the relevant authorities that you were planning to go to the beach. It would be similarly contrary to the FARs if you just conducted the transaction in cash and failed to tell anyone and denied it ever occurred if anyone asked. All these things are contrary to the FARs as written, as Ron correctly points out.
 
hiflier said:
I think it's a common purpose, like you both want to go to the beach. Cap'n Ron is the guy that knows how this stuff works.
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Just as an FYI, Ron's clarification about "location and date" is the result of a recent (this past October) opinion by the Chief Counsel - one of the few in this area that actually expanded private pilot capabilities than further restricting them.

http://tinyurl.com/42qamof
 
midlifeflyer said:
Just as an FYI, Ron's clarification about "location and date" is the result of a recent (this past October) opinion by the Chief Counsel - one of the few in this area that actually expanded private pilot capabilities than further restricting them.

http://tinyurl.com/42qamof
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The specifics of the concept aren't that new. The "same way/same day" concept was enunciated in a letter I got back in 2005 about posting on ride boards, and no doubt has roots much further back than that.
 
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Ron Levy said:
The specifics of the concept aren't that new. The "same way/same day" concept was enunciated in a letter I got back in 2005 about posting on ride boards, and no doubt has roots much further back than that.
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Although even further back there's the "and you're not running for office" letter involving a private pilot who wanted to share expenses with a candidate that suggested more of an emphasis on the "venture" and "purpose" parts of "joint venture for a common purpose."

To me, anyway, the plain english translation of "common purpose" and "joint venture" means more than just the same location with completely different activities. It was nice to see this opinion from the Chief Counsel.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Although even further back there's the "and you're not running for office" letter involving a private pilot who wanted to share expenses with a candidate that suggested more of an emphasis on the "venture" and "purpose" parts of "joint venture for a common purpose."
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Carriage of candidates for political office is covered by 91.321, and involves respect for Federal campaign laws as well as FAA safety goals, so that's a special case.

To me, anyway, the plain english translation of "common purpose" and "joint venture" means more than just the same location with completely different activities. It was nice to see this opinion from the Chief Counsel.
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Agreed -- good to have it clearly stated.
 
david0tey said:
I have a neighbor who wants me to fly him to an airport a few times this summer about an hour away (4 hours driving) He also says he will pay whatever he is allowed to pay me (which is the pro rata share, obviously). The way I understand the rule is that I must have a reason to fly down there other than to take this passenger. My question is, if I just fly him down, go to the beach for an hour (airport is right on the water), and then come back, is this legal? I realize that I would be finding a loophole in the system, but could I legally do this per the FAA? I just got my private and I really don't want to do anything to screw it up. If it helps, I have been looking for destinations that I could go to for day trips to the beach.
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(Bear with me for a moment here...)

There's a traffic light coming out of our neighborhood. It has a left turn arrow. If you're not in the left turn lane long before the light changes, you don't get a left turn arrow... so you sit there, with no competing traffic, for four minutes until the next cycle. Once in a while I get there to make a left just as or just before the light changes. I'm the only one sitting there, there's no oncoming traffic and the (empty) lane next to me has a green light, and sometimes I just make my left on a red arrow. It's illegal, and if a cop sees me I'll probably get a ticket -- but it's a stupid way to have the signals set up. I'll take the risk, but it's a small risk with very small consequences.

In light of the above discussion, it seems to me that if it's your neighbor's idea -- he says when and where you fly, and it's not a place and time you would have gone anyway -- it's not allowable. From a practical standpoint, as long as everyone's happy and no one complains, all's well and nobody cares. BUT... if there were ever a complaint filed, or (for example) and accident of some kind, one ill-advised statement from either you or your passenger could land you in very hot water. It's a small risk with potentially very bad consequences.

I wouldn't take the risk. Your neighbor can either make the drive, or learn to fly.
 
Your best defense in any scenario is a sanitized OFFICIAL log...
Do not put in each individual flight... Quarterly make a single line entry of X total hours and the breakdowns for day/night/landings/single/multi/glider/etc..
What you and your friend decide as to who is buying lunch last thursday, whatever, is personal and between you two..
Listen to Henning...

denny-o
 
Dr. O said:
Your best defense in any scenario is a sanitized OFFICIAL log...
Do not put in each individual flight... Quarterly make a single line entry of X total hours and the breakdowns for day/night/landings/single/multi/glider/etc..
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Unfortunately, that does not meet the legal requirements under 61.51 for a logbook used to meet FAA requirements for aeronautical experience for certificates/ratings or recent experience. If the FAA ever has reason to examine your pilot logbook (and that's not just pertaining to "payment for flight: matters), and it looks like that, you will have major problems.

What you and your friend decide as to who is buying lunch last thursday, whatever, is personal and between you two..
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Not if payment for lunch was agreed to be a condition of taking the friend along. That has specifically been covered in a recent Chief Counsel opinion, where free dinner at a restaurant was considered compensation for a flight for the benefit of the restaurant owner. Make sure your friend doesn't tell the FAA it was a "food-for-flight" deal.
 
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