Preplanned ferry permit

[SkyDog58]

121 and 135's have an OpSpec where they are allowed to carry Ferry Permits on the plane and use them as necessary, simply fill out and sign, and notify the FAA of its use.

Simple.

Certainly not the way it was done with either of the 121s that I worked for.

The basic procedure was for MOC to fill out a form with the reason for the permit, any limitations and all current MELs and get it approved by the DQC and Chief Pilot. Then an A&P had to physically inspect the aircraft and make some logbook entries. Not quite as easy as you make it out to be.

 

[SbestCFII]

No problem, call your FSDO and explain it to them, they'll issue it.

You can ask. The answer usually depends on who you talk to and what their mood is, but one previous commentator was correct. If the airport your plane is parked at has the A&P/IA facilities, then they very well may say no. On August 1st, you're plane isn't legal to fly. So you have three choices: Either get it done before the trip OR plan your return a day early. Fly back on the 1st knowing your illegal and run the minuscule chance you might get caught. I'd recommend one of the first two options.

Oh yeah, iHenning was also correct. If you did get the permit, you can't fly with any passengers on board. Only required crew.

 

[SbestCFII]

I know my A&P would never put his FAA license and the future of his business on the line like that.

 

[RotorAndWing]

You can ask. The answer usually depends on who you talk to and what their mood is, but one previous commentator was correct. If the airport your plane is parked at has the A&P/IA facilities, then they very well may say no.

That's total BS. The FAA cannot dictate where you have your airplane maintained.

Again, you guys are trying to make a ferry permit into something punitive, it's not. The vast majority of ferry permits are issued over the phone and faxed. The FAA puts the onus on the owner and the A&P signing the permit (and aircraft logbook) to do the procedure correctly.

 

[SCCutler]

I think we can safely conclude that the answer is, "It depends." It is possible.

After that, we diverge.

Is it not possible that he asked as a matter of inquisitive curiosity, or to make a plan well in advance, as reasonably required, with input from others who have faced a similar set of circumstances? It is precipitate to conclude foul intent in the face of a mere hypothetical.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Certainly not the way it was done with either of the 121s that I worked for.

The basic procedure was for MOC to fill out a form with the reason for the permit, any limitations and all current MELs and get it approved by the DQC and Chief Pilot. Then an A&P had to physically inspect the aircraft and make some logbook entries.

Where I worked the procedure was to get approval through MC (maintenance control) and have the local line mechanic (or lead) to fill out the form and place it with the maintenance log. MC would advise dispatch the aircraft was being operated on a ferry permit and also file a report with the PMI of the carrier (FAA). All in all the process took about 30 minutes and we were good to go.

OPSPEC D084, SPECIAL FLIGHT PERMIT
WITH CONTINUOUS AUTHORIZATION
TO CONDUCT FERRY FLIGHTS.
This OpSpec authorizes 14 CFR part 119 certificate
holders with an approved continuing flight authorization program to issue a special flight permit with continuing authorization to conduct ferry flights. This permit can only be issued under the guidelines set forth in 14 CFR part 21, § 21.197(c).
NOTE:
Table 1 must reference the certificate
holder’s manual(s) that contain the
approved continuing flight authorization program

21.197 Special flight permits.

(a) A special flight permit may be issued for an aircraft that may not currently meet applicable airworthiness requirements but is capable of safe flight, for the following purposes:
(1) Flying the aircraft to a base where repairs, alterations, or maintenance are to be performed, or to a point of storage.
(2) Delivering or exporting the aircraft.
(3) Production flight testing new production aircraft.
(4) Evacuating aircraft from areas of impending danger.
(5) Conducting customer demonstration flights in new production aircraft that have satisfactorily completed production flight tests.
(b) A special flight permit may also be issued to authorize the operation of an aircraft at a weight in excess of its maximum certificated takeoff weight for flight beyond the normal range over water, or over land areas where adequate landing facilities or appropriate fuel is not available. The excess weight that may be authorized under this paragraph is limited to the additional fuel, fuel-carrying facilities, and navigation equipment necessary for the flight.
(c) Upon application, as prescribed in §§91.1017 or 119.51 of this chapter, a special flight permit with a continuing authorization may be issued for aircraft that may not meet applicable airworthiness requirements, but are capable of safe flight for the purpose of flying aircraft to a base where maintenance or alterations are to be performed. The permit issued under this paragraph is an authorization, including conditions and limitations for flight, which is set forth in the certificate holder's operations specifications. The permit issued under this paragraph may be issued to—
(1) Certificate holders authorized to conduct operations under part 119 of this chapter, that have an approved program for continuing flight authorization; or
(2) Management specification holders authorized to conduct operations under part 91, subpart K of this chapter for those aircraft they operate and maintain under a continuous airworthiness maintenance program prescribed by §91.1411 of this chapter.

Not quite as easy as you make it out to be.

Yea, what do I know. I'll defer to the posters here who's never actually seen or done a ferry permit.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Is it not possible that he asked as a matter of inquisitive curiosity, or to make a plan well in advance, as reasonably required, with input from others who have faced a similar set of circumstances?

The exception is the majority of the answers being given are from those who have never done the process or even seen what a ferry permit looks like.

 

[SCCutler]

The exception is the majority of the answers being given are from those who have never done the process or even seen what a ferry permit looks like.

Noticed that.

Thanks for your (factual and actual) input.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I think we can safely conclude that the answer is, "It depends." It is possible.

After that, we diverge.

Sad thing is that as R&W posted, the only way you will be able to get a definitive answer is to call the actual FSDO and discuss it with them. Seems some people just view the FAA as a boogey man who will put your name down on some secret ACA death squad list if you ask a question they don't agree with.

 

[SkyDog58]

Yea, what do I know. I'll defer to the posters here who's never actually seen or done a ferry permit.

Yeah, I’m just some guy on the internet who doesn’t know what he is talking about.

I have worked as an A&P for a 121 airline and have performed the mechanic’s portion of the special flight permit including inspecting the aircraft, preparing the aircraft as required and then making the logbook entry certifying that the aircraft is safe for its intended flight.

I have also worked as a maintenance controller for a 121 airline and have done the MOC portion. This included reviewing the discrepancy that requires a ferry flight and any other open items and MELs that might have an impact on safety of flight, instructing the mechanic on the proper procedures, preparing the special flight permit paperwork, getting the appropriate signatures, discussing the flight and any restrictions with the pilot and dispatcher, etc. And finally, faxing the completed permit to the crew to be placed in the log.

It is not a simple matter of someone grabbing a form off the plane and filling it out as some guy on the internet claimed.

121 and 135's have an OpSpec where they are allowed to carry Ferry Permits on the plane and use them as necessary, simply fill out and sign, and notify the FAA of its use.
Simple.

 

[EdFred]

Does every 121 and 135 have the EXACT SAME OpSpec? Is it possible that there might be variation among them?

 

[RotorAndWing]

Yeah, I’m just some guy on the internet who doesn’t know what he is talking about.

I have worked as an A&P for a 121 airline and have performed the mechanic’s portion of the special flight permit including inspecting the aircraft, preparing the aircraft as required and then making the logbook entry certifying that the aircraft is safe for its intended flight.

I have also worked as a maintenance controller for a 121 airline and have done the MOC portion. This included reviewing the discrepancy that requires a ferry flight and any other open items and MELs that might have an impact on safety of flight, instructing the mechanic on the proper procedures, preparing the special flight permit paperwork, getting the appropriate signatures, discussing the flight and any restrictions with the pilot and dispatcher, etc. And finally, faxing the completed permit to the crew to be placed in the log.

It is not a simple matter of someone grabbing a form off the plane and filling it out as some guy on the internet claimed.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Does every 121 and 135 have the EXACT SAME OpSpec? Is it possible that there might be variation among them?

The OpSpec is the only one. The difference is the procedure that each carrier writes to comply with said OpSpec. The procedure is written into the respective carriers GMM and GOM.

So to answer your question, it varies from carrier to carrier.

 

[EdFred]

The OpSpec is the only one. The difference is the procedure that each carrier writes to comply with said OpSpec. The procedure is written into the respective carriers GMM and GOM.

So to answer your question, it varies from carrier to carrier.

Which is what I was getting at.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Which is what I was getting at.

Yep.

But give it time, someone will be along shortly to tell you that's not true.

 

[Silvaire]

As noted getting the permit from the FAA is no big deal, that's basically just a form. It has to be signed by the A&P that is going to be doing the actual authorization, that is the meat in the equation. The permit is of no use without that signature.

 

[Henning]

Ferry permits are easy, they just ask the questions to fill in the blanks and fax it off. Never has anyone questioned it, over half the planes I got one for was due to "out of annual". Never was the question raised if there was maintenance available on the field to do one. Within 30 minutes typically it comes through on a fax machine.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

No problem, call your FSDO and explain it to them, they'll issue it.

Lots of threads we never hear back on what happened.
RotorAndWing 'wins' this one.
I asked for, and promptly received a ferry permit to return the airplane to my maintenance base.
(I did not have to conjure up a story, I did not withhold information, I did not deceive in any way.)
I simply told him I needed one and he provided. Perhaps it helped that it was simply for an airplane that was 30hrs out of annual, I don't know. (I am an A+P and did the AD verification.)

So, thanks RaW.
Also, the FSDO can sometimes be reasonable and helpful; I give them due credit.

I also got approval from the insurance company, they took 2 days but were equally compliant.

What is the world coming to?

 

[Mike Smith]

What if the OP is the A+P?

This was completely missed by the hysterical masses. Good job.

 

[JimNtexas]

R&W is correct of course. It's no big deal. Based on our club experience ferry permits are the one thing that our FSDO can turn around promptly, as in same afternoon in at least one recent case.

 

[Tj1376]

Lots of threads we never hear back on what happened.

RotorAndWing 'wins' this one.

I asked for, and promptly received a ferry permit to return the airplane to my maintenance base.

(I did not have to conjure up a story, I did not withhold information, I did not deceive in any way.)

I simply told him I needed one and he provided. Perhaps it helped that it was simply for an airplane that was 30hrs out of annual, I don't know. (I am an A+P and did the AD verification.)



So, thanks RaW.

Also, the FSDO can sometimes be reasonable and helpful; I give them due credit.



I also got approval from the insurance company, they took 2 days but were equally compliant.



What is the world coming to?

Just curious what approval was needed from the insurance side. While I have very little experience with airplane insurance, I have a ton of other insurance experience. I would have figured that no lender would have allowed the insurance company to deny the claim based upon being out of annual. Too many airplanes on loans and well, pilots do stupid things that the lender of the note will want protection for.

I mean, my car needs a vehicle inspection every twenty four months in my state. My insurance isn't nullified because I drive past that period. (I know, kinda a silly comparison but it's the best I have.)

TJ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

It says in my cover letter from the broker (Facer) that I need to give them 2 biz days' notice before any ferry permit flight.
In this case, the carrier greenlighted the flight without further ado. The agent said that sometimes they want to.....maybe she said 'underwrite' the flight (which I take to mean ascertain risk and premium).
I am pretty sure that if an annual was a only few days out they would have a pretty big legal fight with any lender (or owner) and as such do not pursue it. Now if it was 6 months out of annual and the airplane fell apart due to some mechanical neglect that might be different.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Told Fsdo I had simply forgotten it. ( three weeks out of annual.) he asked where I was trying to take it, ( a 15 mile hop) he said, " I'll fax it to him right away. Check with him in a hour, it will be there. ) it was. I've always been treated fairly by the FAA , never a problem in fourty years of flying. A few years ago, An FAA type strolled over to me at ocean city md. After I landed in my Stearman. Shook hands and asked if he could sit in it and have his picture taken. No problem. (It was windy and I'd landed about four times in one and thought he'd say something but never mentioned it. It was painted navy.) sometimes in a cross wind it was nasty! I never notified the insurance company. Why would I? !!

 

[JHW]

Just curious what approval was needed from the insurance side. While I have very little experience with airplane insurance, I have a ton of other insurance experience. I would have figured that no lender would have allowed the insurance company to deny the claim based upon being out of annual. Too many airplanes on loans and well, pilots do stupid things that the lender of the note will want protection for.

I mean, my car needs a vehicle inspection every twenty four months in my state. My insurance isn't nullified because I drive past that period. (I know, kinda a silly comparison but it's the best I have.)

TJ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

just check your policy, lots of variations, but generally it's just notification and they probably want you to fax them a copy of the ferry permit

 

[PPC1052]

Interestingly enough I know a person that collapsed their gear on landing and the plane was discovered to be almost 30 days out of annual. When asked the owner said he thought the annual was still good.

The insurance paid the claim.

I know of an accident in which the plane was out of annual when it was destroyed, I gave an opinion to the carrier that they could deny the claim, and they still paid it anyway. So, I don't doubt what you say. Of course, in some states, the carrier could deny the claim.

 

[Henning]

I know of an accident in which the plane was out of annual when it was destroyed, I gave an opinion to the carrier that they could deny the claim, and they still paid it anyway. So, I don't doubt what you say. Of course, in some states, the carrier could deny the claim.

Typically, as long as you didn't make any material misrepresentation and/or lie on the application, your coverage will be in force even if the annual or your medical runs out in the term of the policy. There has even been a letter from Avemco stating the same. A prior post alludes to the reason, finance companies insist.

 

[Henning]

Told Fsdo I had simply forgotten it. ( three weeks out of annual.) he asked where I was trying to take it, ( a 15 mile hop) he said, " I'll fax it to him right away. Check with him in a hour, it will be there. ) it was. I've always been treated fairly by the FAA , never a problem in fourty years of flying. A few years ago, An FAA type strolled over to me at ocean city md. After I landed in my Stearman. Shook hands and asked if he could sit in it and have his picture taken. No problem. (It was windy and I'd landed about four times in one and thought he'd say something but never mentioned it. It was painted navy.) sometimes in a cross wind it was nasty! I never notified the insurance company. Why would I? !!

Because sometimes it's stipulated as the underwriter may want to sell off a portion of that risk to another underwriter to spread the risk. It's always good to check the policy, or with your agent. It's not like they will say "no", they just sometimes want to know.

 

[PPC1052]

Typically,

I don't think you can say "typically." It will depend on your policy language, and your state, and maybe even on the specific claims handler that gets the claim.

 

[Henning]

I don't think you can say "typically." It will depend on your policy language, and your state, and maybe even on the specific claims handler that gets the claim.

Correct, however policy language is standardized through state insurance commissions and the ISO. It's all about protecting the money within the system.

 

[PPC1052]

however policy language is standardized through state insurance commissions and the ISO.

I haven't gone looking, but I have yet to see an ISO aviation form. I am skeptical that many state insurance departments have much in the way of regulations governing the required terms of aviation policies.

 

[Henning]

I haven't gone looking, but I have yet to see an ISO aviation form. I am skeptical that many state insurance departments have much in the way of regulations governing the required terms of aviation policies.

You sell the product sets that the state approves, and it all goes through the same process. ISO is involved in the state commissions where applicable so while they may not be ISO policies, ISO is involved.

 

[PPC1052]

You sell the product sets that the state approves, and it all goes through the same process.

I am familiar with that general process for common types of insurance coverage. But I am not aware of any state approval process for aviation policies, as opposed to other more common personal and commercial lines. Are you?

 

[Henning]

I am familiar with that general process for common types of insurance coverage. But I am not aware of any state approval process for aviation policies, as opposed to other more common personal and commercial lines. Are you?

Not sure, but the way I learned it, ALL insurance products go through the process. Some may be more heavily regulated than others, but all products go through the same process.

 

[PPC1052]

Not sure, but the way I learned it, ALL insurance products go through the process.

Well, that's certainly not true. That's what surplus lines insurance is--coverage that is not regulated in the state in which its sold. It may be regulated by the state in which the carrier is located, or if overseas, but the local laws of the country where it's located. But the state department of insurance where its sold doesn't regulate it. Aviation is an unusual risk, and I would anticipate that much of it is surplus lines coverage. And, if there are no regulations specific to aviation coverage, there's nothing much to comply with, with the exception of matters of general application. But those aren't going to be addressing the specific types of aviation policy language exclusions pertinent to this discussion.

 

[Kritchlow]

Just curious... Was it VFR only with no pax?

 

[Henning]

Well, that's certainly not true. That's what surplus lines insurance is--coverage that is not regulated in the state in which its sold. It may be regulated by the state in which the carrier is located, or if overseas, but the local laws of the country where it's located. But the state department of insurance where its sold doesn't regulate it. Aviation is an unusual risk, and I would anticipate that much of it is surplus lines coverage. And, if there are no regulations specific to aviation coverage, there's nothing much to comply with, with the exception of matters of general application. But those aren't going to be addressing the specific types of aviation policy language exclusions pertinent to this discussion.

True, but that's a matter of reciprocity, the product still went through the process to originate. Some states don't offer reciprocity though which is why you can't buy all products in all states.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Well, that's certainly not true.

What???

henning wrote it, it must be true.

 

[Tom-D]

A few years past, there was a Cessna 210 operator that was a A&P, he determined that his gear took 2 or more cycles to get it unlock and go down. He did not have the expertise or time to correct the issue. He hired a ferry pilot to take the 210 to a mechanic that would give him training on the gear. So the red flagged the gear handle, INOP and a sign " Do Not Raise the gear."

All was good on the ferry flight, until the brain dead ferry pilot followed the check list and raised the gear. before he realized his mistake, the gear was up and locked.

After lots of legal wrangling, the owners insurance paid for the repair, but subrogated to the ferry pilot for the claim. fortunately he had a personal liability policy that ended up paying the claim.

Ferry flights = SH