Pre-Veterinary Schools

32nd year in.
Encouraged to see so many comments above most of which agree with what I know about it.

Attending a professional school is a bit of a double whammy.

1. During all those years at college, all your non-college cohorts are out there making a living. So for 7?8? years you are making zip, while many are starting careers, opening businesses, possibly buying homes/cars/airplanes - which You Are Not. Think Ramen noodles.
2. Conversely, instead of earning money, you are racking up debt every year and making no payments on it. The story below mentions 140K but I have heard many stories of 225-250K debt recently.

And that's ok, in this age of "user-pay" I guess. However, you just have to make sure you understand and accept this, going in. (but is getting any kind of a handle on such debt, as a 20 year old, truly possible)

"According to the 2017 AVMA Report on Veterinary Markets, the mean debt incurred by 2016 veterinary graduates while they were veterinary students was $141,000. A majority of debt incurred by veterinary students is attributed to the cost of tuition and fees (71.2 percent), with the remainder composed of living expenses (17.2 percent), transportation (3.7 percent), books and materials (3.2 percent), veterinary equipment (2.1 percent), and all other expenses (2.6 percent) (see story)."
 
AggieMike88 said:
Texas A&M.
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There's a shocker for us all. Aggie Mike plugging A&M. Whodo thunkt it?

nauga said:
Everyone seems to be focusing on vet schools and where to go. I'll put it a little different. Paraphrasing what well-known vet school said to an incoming class about 4 years ago: "What you study undergrad isn't as important as how well you do.
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Here you go. Don't do "pre" anything. Most engineering or biology programs will give more than enough exposure to the needed course work for Vet or Med school, and still have utility if you change your mind or don't get accepted to the next level.
 
Ravioli said:
There's a shocker for us all. Aggie Mike plugging A&M. Whodo thunkt it?



Here you go. Don't do "pre" anything. Most engineering or biology programs will give more than enough exposure to the needed course work for Vet or Med school, and still have utility if you change your mind or don't get accepted to the next level.
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Engineering was another option she looked at seriously and one that I kind of pushed. Even if you wind up doing something else, an engineering degree tells prospective employers and grad schools that at least you're not an idiot.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
Engineering was another option she looked at seriously and one that I kind of pushed. Even if you wind up doing something else, an engineering degree tells prospective employers and grad schools that at least you're not an idiot.

Rich
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Besides, ERTW. :D
 
Half Fast said:
That's because real doctors know how to treat more than one species.
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It's hard to find herp vets, I can tell you that much. I once had to explain to a vet why Sedivet and Lutalyse were better options than oxytocin to induce oviposition in cases of dystocia in turtles. I didn't know anyone still used oxytocin. (To her credit, she didn't get offended.)

Rich
 
Speaking of veterinarians, turtles, and oviposition, here are some turtle eggs. Southern painted turtle, to be exact.

southern-painted-turtle-eggs.jpg


Those were laid naturally. I just provided the nesting box.

Getting the soil right is the most important thing. They're very picky about composition, consistency, temperature, and moisture content. Lighting and air temperature are also important. It also helps if the turtle trusts the keeper. After a few clutches, they swim to the keeper when they're gravid, and then wait patiently in the box to be returned to the habitat when they're done.

Rich
 
University of Pennsylvania and UC Davis offer great programs

Penn Is pretty well known for it equine stuff. Davis more the bovine...
 
Large Animal vets are saints. They come out at all times of the night or day, in all kinds of weather, risk serious injury from frightened animal that could crush them in a heartbeat.but really, dealing with the critters is the easy part. Horse owners, especially wealthy women, can be emotional wrecks when it comes to a little ding on their "Precious". They spend as much time coddling the owner as they do treating the critter. You couldn't pay me enough.

Having said that, much of vet medicine has gone the way of human medicine. One of the first questions you hear is "is this animal insured". Then comes the testing for this, testing for that. 20 years go, the vet would come out, examine, assess diagnose and treat. Testing is replacing judgement. They call this "evidence based" veterinary medicine, and it's what they are teaching in vet schools today.and the old timers hate it.

In any event, back to the OP. if she really want to get in, it's very , very competitive. The kids who have come through our program and been accepted have done so on the basis of recommendation from vets they have worked for, stable owners and others in related industries. Undergrads have included Clemson, VA tech, University of Florida and Penn State. With the exception of the Clemson grad who went to University of Texas for vet school, the rest went where they attended undergrad., as they had developed relationships with faculty. As a sad side note, of the five one beautiful young lady ended up committing suicide after about ten years in practice. Broke our hearts.
 
As an engineer I can't comment about vets or veterinary schools, but I can say that Yale, though it has a great academic reputation, is one of the most extreme bastions of liberalism and political correctness in the country.
 
Just as an addendum, the University of Pennsylvania's New Bolton Center in Kennet Square, PA and VA Tech's Marion scott DuPont Equine center in Leesburg, VA are two of the top equine research hospitals in the country.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Having said that, much of vet medicine has gone the way of human medicine. One of the first questions you hear is "is this animal insured". Then comes the testing for this, testing for that. 20 years go, the vet would come out, examine, assess diagnose and treat. Testing is replacing judgement. They call this "evidence based" veterinary medicine, and it's what they are teaching in vet schools today.and the old timers hate it.
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This is so true. I first saw it in the early 90s. Had a horse that suddenly came up lame. Primary vet was on vacation, so we got the backup. Young guy from a bigger clinic.

He kept ordering tests/xrays...etc looking for proof of navicular disease.

After a big bill and nothing to show for it, primary vet came back and first thing he did was pick up a hoof and announce that the shoes were too small and had bruised the heel.

Never had another problem, but it was an expensive lesson.
 
Fearless Tower said:
This is so true. I first saw it in the early 90s. Had a horse that suddenly came up lame. Primary vet was on vacation, so we got the backup. Young guy from a bigger clinic.

He kept ordering tests/xrays...etc looking for proof of navicular disease.

After a big bill and nothing to show for it, primary vet came back and first thing he did was pick up a hoof and announce that the shoes were too small and had bruised the heel.

Never had another problem, but it was an expensive lesson.
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I too have seen many variations of this scenario. There is a lot to be said for experience and good judgement. On the other hand, I have seen a lot of older, experience doctors jump to a bad conclusion based on something else they saw previously, and failed to use proper, modern diagnostics.

Veterinary medicine has changed with the times. The technology is better, the treatments are better, and the lawsuits are bigger and more frequent if you miss something. You are more likely to get sued if you ignore diagnostics in an attempt to save the client a few dollars than if you fail to adhere to currently accepted diagnostic practices. That is where many of the suicides begin, especially for younger doctors that have never learned how to accept criticism.
 
JOhnH said:
I too have seen many variations of this scenario. There is a lot to be said for experience and good judgement. On the other hand, I have seen a lot of older, experience doctors jump to a bad conclusion based on something else they saw previously, and failed to use proper, modern diagnostics.

Veterinary medicine has changed with the times. The technology is better, the treatments are better, and the lawsuits are bigger and more frequent if you miss something. You are more likely to get sued if you ignore diagnostics in an attempt to save the client a few dollars than if you fail to adhere to currently accepted diagnostic practices. That is where many of the suicides begin, especially for younger doctors that have never learned how to accept criticism.
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Very valid point.

I think a good vet (or human doc) uses their wisdom and experience to narrow things down and appropriate testing to confirm or rule things out when necessary.
 
Honestly, not much different than aviation. Everyone knows the value of judgement, but you can't legislate it, or effectively teach it. It's something learned from experience. We call the newb vets that come out to our place "vetlets", because they really have no clue. They can draw a Coggins, give shots, treat a colic or stitch a wound, but for a real diagnosis, give me a grey-hair. We've been doing this for 32 years. As the insurance commercial says, "we know a thing or two, because we've seen a thing or two".
 
Even in small animal practice, good hospitals rarely let new grad DVMs practice on their own until they gain confidence in them. Just like getting a PPL is a "License to Learn", so is a newly minted DVM.

But I have seen some older doctors hire a new young grad and on their second day on the job, the older doc starts a well deserved 30 day vacation. "Well Deserved" but "Horribly Timed".
 
As for navicular, we've had horses with skyline x-rays that look like the horse shouldn't be able to walk, and go sound for years in bar shoe's. Others with clean x-rays go lame for weeks at a time. Even with all the technology, which is great there's an element "horseman's luck". And don't get me started on pre-purchase vettings. Make airplanes look positively simple by comparison.
 
I have a good friend that just finished vet school and went to Cornell.

I went to Michigan State and know they have a large vet presence. My friend applied there but I think she said it's even harder to get accepted there than Cornell.
 
Forgot to mention the US Army is the only service with veterinarians. Mostly in support of military working dogs, but also responsible for the few remaining horse teams, both stateside and overseas.
 
In fact, the Army vet corps are tasked with dealing with animal matters in the other services (though some just use civilian vets/techs).
 
The recommendation for Herriot's books is great, but to correct one of @Half Fast's posts from earlier, the Bulldogs at UGA aren't brain damaged, they are inbred. It is the result of breeding for pure white Bulldogs for generations. You end up with a very compromised example of the breed that happens to be white.

BTW, Auburn and A&M are probably better choices for a vet, but you go where you get accepted.
 
Half Fast said:
So did you talk with her today?
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I did.

Apparently she's wavered since we last talked. She's no longer 100 percent certain she wants to be a vet, but she's strongly leaning in that direction. That being the case, we talked more generally about college majors and how to preserve her options in addition to pre-vet programs.

She loves chemistry and biology, for example; so I suggested that if she still hasn't decided what to do before she runs out of time to decide, a major in either chemistry or biology with a minor in the other, or a dual-major in both, along with the usual liberal arts core courses, would prepare her for a wide variety of opportunities simply because it would tell the world she's not a moron.

She doesn't consider herself very good in math, but she's averaging in the high 90's in a college-level Introductory Calculus course while she's still a high school Senior. I told her I didn't think she'd have to worry much about college math. (I actually found it much easier than high school math.)

We also discussed the various pre-vet programs mentioned here, which she found interesting. She asked if she'd be able to take the pre-vet curriculum with a stated major in biology, chemistry, or both, just to make the degree more acceptable should she not pursue that major. I told her she'd have to ask the school, but that any degree in the sciences would carry more prestige than the easy majors like psychology and sociology that bazillions of students take because they don't know what else to study in college.

It was a good discussion. She was very engaged. Also, like most teens, she prefers getting advice from anyone other than her parents. I think it will help her make a good choice.

Thanks to all who contributed.

Rich
 
kyleb said:
The recommendation for Herriot's books is great, but to correct one of @Half Fast's posts from earlier, the Bulldogs at UGA aren't brain damaged, they are inbred. It is the result of breeding for pure white Bulldogs for generations. You end up with a very compromised example of the breed that happens to be white.

BTW, Auburn and A&M are probably better choices for a vet, but you go where you get accepted.
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Yeah, inbreeding has been a problem at U (sic) GA for many years.....
 
I'm not sure what the pre-reqs are for vet school, but for dental school, you basically need a 4 year degree. The guy next to me got in after 3 years of college, but that was unusual. Nowadays it's nearly impossible. Anyway, the dental school in Georgia looked at GPA and DAT scores first for acceptance. My point being to keep her grades up and do well on standardized tests. Those will be the keys to unlocking whichever path she wants to follow.
 
rbridges said:
I'm not sure what the pre-reqs are for vet school, but for dental school, you basically need a 4 year degree. The guy next to me got in after 3 years of college, but that was unusual. Nowadays it's nearly impossible. Anyway, the dental school in Georgia looked at GPA and DAT scores first for acceptance. My point being to keep her grades up and do well on standardized tests. Those will be the keys to unlocking whichever path she wants to follow.
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The admission process to veterinary school apparently is the most difficult and competitive of all graduate programs.

I've been told by several vets and two physicians that because of the intense competition, consideration for vet school starts with a 4.0 undergrad GPA; undergrad coursework through 400-level in biology (including some courses in microbiology, anatomy and physiology, and zoology) and chemistry; a few 200-level or higher physics courses; and math including at least two courses in calculus. The physics and calculus are important more as proof of intelligence (and because most other applicants will have completed them) than because they have very much to do with veterinary.

Like the math and physics courses, the 4.0 GPA is important mainly for competitive reasons. Having gotten a B+ in some obscure liberal arts core course may have nothing to do an applicant's ability to learn veterinary. But veterinary schools typically have more applicants who did achieve 4.0 GPAs than they have seats in the program; so those applicants who scored less than an "A" in a course or two will have to work that much harder to be noticed. (I imagine that's one area in which having earned one's BA or BS from the same university as the vet school could be a big advantage.)

The applicant should also have taken and scored exceptionally well on the GRE (both General and Biology) and the MCAT. Most veterinary schools only require one or the other of those tests; but having also scored well on the others tips the odds in an applicant's favor.

Finally, the applicant should have paid or volunteer experience in animal-related areas, involvement with programs like FFA and 4H, and stunning references from undergrad professors and practicing veterinarians or other animal scientists. If some of the people writing the references are alumni of the school to which the applicant is applying, so much the better.

Rich
 
I noted that the suggestions involved mostly warm weather universities.
MSU (Mich State) is the only university with all three branches of medicine on campus. I have a degree from moo-u and proud of it. At that point in time (early 70's) we had some shared classes during the first semester with all three groups taking a shared course (300 students in a lecture hall). I noted a couple of things (actually more than a couple but it involves opinions I will not share on an open forum)

My best advice to an aspiring student is, go to college and take a major in which you can come close to 4.0 - take of course, the required biochem, etc.
The second best advice is, grow a personality and learn to speak persuasively (debate class or club)
The third advice is, have a back up plan. There are hundreds if not thousands applying for the seat you want. I had come out of the engineering world and could go back.

Sitting on the admissions committee is not an exercise in just selecting all the 4.0 applicants, actually they will not be the majority of students accepted - but anything below 3.8 better have a really good reason. The applicants we interview have been prescreened on the basis of academic record and written recommendations before being thrown into the pile to be interviewed. Having the personality of a dead frog cannot be overcome by a 4.0 record.
The applicants have, to a person, the ability to learn as proven by HS & College. So my task at that point is select applicants (as 1 vote on a committee) who will represent the profession to the public in a manner we as fellow practitioners can be proud of. It is just that simple. Then we hold our breath hoping the people we select do not crash and burn under the stress of the next 4 years. (always lose a few, though)

Not being selected is not failure. We always have more than we can take who qualified for admission and were given a thumbs up by every interviewer.
And finally - Yes the vet schools due to their scarcity get to select from the top fraction of one percent of students - but not all vet students turn out to be world beaters. One of our local vets just recently got jammed up and jailed for having street drugs in his possession, brandishing a weapon, yadda yadda...
 
Dr. O said:
I noted that the suggestions involved mostly warm weather universities.
MSU (Mich State) is the only university with all three branches of medicine on campus. I have a degree from moo-u and proud of it. At that point in time (early 70's) we had some shared classes during the first semester with all three groups taking a shared course (300 students in a lecture hall). I noted a couple of things (actually more than a couple but it involves opinions I will not share on an open forum)

My best advice to an aspiring student is, go to college and take a major in which you can come close to 4.0 - take of course, the required biochem, etc.
The second best advice is, grow a personality and learn to speak persuasively (debate class or club)
The third advice is, have a back up plan. There are hundreds if not thousands applying for the seat you want. I had come out of the engineering world and could go back.

Sitting on the admissions committee is not an exercise in just selecting all the 4.0 applicants, actually they will not be the majority of students accepted - but anything below 3.8 better have a really good reason. The applicants we interview have been prescreened on the basis of academic record and written recommendations before being thrown into the pile to be interviewed. Having the personality of a dead frog cannot be overcome by a 4.0 record.
The applicants have, to a person, the ability to learn as proven by HS & College. So my task at that point is select applicants (as 1 vote on a committee) who will represent the profession to the public in a manner we as fellow practitioners can be proud of. It is just that simple. Then we hold our breath hoping the people we select do not crash and burn under the stress of the next 4 years. (always lose a few, though)

Not being selected is not failure. We always have more than we can take who qualified for admission and were given a thumbs up by every interviewer.
And finally - Yes the vet schools due to their scarcity get to select from the top fraction of one percent of students - but not all vet students turn out to be world beaters. One of our local vets just recently got jammed up and jailed for having street drugs in his possession, brandishing a weapon, yadda yadda...
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I wish I could give that post more than just ONE like. Everything in it is absolutely true and void of mere opinion.
 
Colorado State has a under grad and grad good program. One of the best in exotics. And it's not a bad place to live. I look out my window at Long's Peak and the Continental Divide.
 
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Ventucky Red said:
University of Pennsylvania and UC Davis offer great programs

Penn Is pretty well known for it equine stuff. Davis more the bovine...
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UC Davis has a veterinary school that was new after WWII. Their first graduating class was in 1952. My dad graduated from there in 1953 and then taught there for 8 years. Moved to the vet school at Washington State University in 1961 and retired from there in 1991. Small animals. Orthopedic surgery was his specialty.

When he headed the admissions committee at WSU they typically had 700 applicants for 70 openings in the incoming Freshman class. A 4.0 GPA was NOT a guarantee of admission. If you were a resident of the state of Washington your chance of being admitted anywhere other than WSU was zero. Same if you lived in California. UC Davis was it for you. You had a vet school in your state. None of the others would look at you. And back in those days there were three vet schools in the west. WSU, UC Davis and Colorado State. A touch further east and there was Oklahoma State and Texas A&M. There was one in Iowa, IIRC. Can't remember if that was UI or ISU. More to the east of there. It was harder (more competitive) to get into vet school than med school because of the demand and relative scarcity of schools.

The bottom line is that if your granddaughter is really interested in being a veterinarian, she needs more than good grades. As I recall the admissions committees are looking for activities that show an understanding of the profession and an interest in it. When Dad was head of the committee at WSU they wanted those 70 incoming Freshmen to be 70 graduating Seniors in 4 years. For every one that didn't make it, that was one other candidate who didn't get a shot at it that year.

Having grown up with a veterinarian I would get asked why I didn't follow in my Dad's footsteps. Simple. I grew up with one. Those calls at 3 in the morning saying the dog had been sick for 2 weeks and now it was an emergency just didn't hack it for me. I got my degree in electrical engineering and loved my career. Different strokes for different folks.

Best of luck to her.
 
ejensen said:
Colorado State has a under grad and grad good program. One of the best in exotics. And it's not a bad place to live. I look out my window at Long's Peak and the Continental Divide.
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Speaking of CSU, when did they build the stadium that is actually on campus?

When I was there the football stadium was way off campus up in the foothills.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Speaking of CSU, when did they build the stadium that is actually on campus?

When I was there the football stadium was way off campus up in the foothills.
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This was the first season. Big controversy. Most folks thought Hugh could be renovated and was different setting than on-campus plus parking and tailgating. But the athletic director and the president sold the idea that we could have a world class team if they had a stadium on campus. Never mind parking, tailgating, noise. My old neighborhood now has permit parking. And for the weekday games they make students and faculty park somewhere else. CSU will never be an first tier team but the stadium (and bonds) are a done deal. City had no say since the State owns the campus.
 
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