Pre buy pre buy pre buy!!

wabower said:
The mechanic who conducted the inspection in NJ was the one who will (and does) maintain it now. All of us knew that the inspection would be somewhat limited due to circumstances, and the buyer was comfortable with that knowledge. The items to be inspected were left to the discretion of the mechanic, a long-tooth veteran of Bonanza MX.

I went along to read the logs and inspect the records and hold the compression test gage (or whatever other help was needed) and help fly it back to Dallas. That event occurred two years ago, and so far the only undiscovered surprise was some light corrosion inside the NLG strut and an unexpected issue with the flow divider. The deice line for the STC'd wing protection started to leak during the past winter but was simple to fix. Overall, a nice A-36 for the client, and the best buy on the market when we made the deal.
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Perfect choice.
 
wabower said:
The mechanic who conducted the inspection in NJ was the one who will (and does) maintain it now. All of us knew that the inspection would be somewhat limited due to circumstances, and the buyer was comfortable with that knowledge. The items to be inspected were left to the discretion of the mechanic, a long-tooth veteran of Bonanza MX.

I went along to read the logs and inspect the records and hold the compression test gage (or whatever other help was needed) and help fly it back to Dallas. That event occurred two years ago, and so far the only undiscovered surprise was some light corrosion inside the NLG strut and an unexpected issue with the flow divider. The deice line for the STC'd wing protection started to leak during the past winter but was simple to fix. Overall, a nice A-36 for the client, and the best buy on the market when we made the deal.
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Nice, with the proper circumstances no worries, and with a good plane, even less worries. I inspected the 310 for about 5 minutes before I knew I'd buy it. The deal was there, the condition was there and the low time engines & new props were there and the owner (known to me) was providing a fresh annual. I haven't had any surprises either. Hard to give that method as prebuy advice though since deals like this are not the common.
 
Obviously lots of different experiences and lots of different opinions here.

I spent 15 years doing GA maintenance and inspections out of the 25 or so that I've had my A&P and CPL. 10 years of that 15 was at a CRS that included both engine and prop overhaul shops. As already mentioned here, there is no formal definition or specification for a "pre-buy" inspection (or if you prefer, an "evaluation") in the regs. Because of that, we never did them. If asked, we would be happy to do an Annual (or if you wanted to call it a "100 hour" that works too - exact same inspection/different purpose and sign-off. Point is, the "scope and detail" of an Annual/100 Hour are clearly defined under FAR 43 Appendix D and everyone knows (or should know) what is involved.

In regard to a Seller claiming that an airplane will be sold with a "Fresh Annual", I would NEVER trust the Seller's mechanic or shop to do that inspection and have to take their word for it unless they were already personally well known to me. After all, they have been working for the seller, not necessarily the buyer.

I always wanted to suggest to the parties involved that if the Seller truly believes that the aircraft is "airworthy" then if the Buyer is willing to pay for a new Annual Inspection (especially if it's not actually due - and by the way, just the "inspection" - no servicing or repairs) to be performed by the mechanic or shop of his choice, then the Seller should be willing to pay to fix any discrepancies that are found - since he is essentially claiming that there won't be any.
 
Tom-D said:
OK now you have an aircraft that has a fresh annual..

Does that tell you it flys ok or that all the radios work properly? Nope.

Does an annual tell you how much time life is left on any times lifed items? nope.

A smart buyer will know the type well enough to know what to look for, For an example, Knowing certain cylinders sux isn't some thing any annual will tell you.
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No, the inspection by the mechanic is only to tell me about airworthiness issues and whatever else he comes across. That is only a fraction of the evaluation of the aircraft I perform.
 
I can clearly do things with purchases of planes for my own use that I can't recommend to clients, and tell them so up front. Fiduciary duty is stronger than my opinion, whatever it might be. OTOH, I usually follow the same pattern for all transactions and only deviate when I'm pretty sure I understand the issues. So far so good.

Henning said:
Nice, with the proper circumstances no worries, and with a good plane, even less worries. I inspected the 310 for about 5 minutes before I knew I'd buy it. The deal was there, the condition was there and the low time engines & new props were there and the owner (known to me) was providing a fresh annual. I haven't had any surprises either. Hard to give that method as prebuy advice though since deals like this are not the common.
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I really like to do pre-purchase checks, I'm in west coast today finishing up on an a Meridian pre-purchase. A nearly dead heated windshield, broken pilots seat back and some small stress wrinkles in the wing roots are the biggest problems to work through. Specializing helps when it comes to what parts and tools to take and knowing what to look for. Sometimes things don't go as expected. In Holland while checking a Meridian hot section my borescope lamp blew, luckily the shop had an extra light source.

Some of the more common words after a buyer passed on the pre-purchase.

I bought the airplane with a fresh annual inspection from the sellers shop.
The shop that did the annual works on jets and King airs.
The airplane just came out of a extensive repair by experts.
But it has a Garmin 500 panel and a new interior.
You could eat off of the hangar floor and the airplane was spotless.
The owner always told his shop to do everything.
I really hit it off with the seller.
All service bulletins and letters are done..

One of my favorites- That red airplane just looked good in my hangar.
 
150Mike said:
If asked, we would be happy to do an Annual (or if you wanted to call it a "100 hour" that works too - exact same inspection/different purpose and sign-off. Point is, the "scope and detail" of an Annual/100 Hour are clearly defined under FAR 43 Appendix D and everyone knows (or should know) what is involved.
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Same thing at the CRS I worked at only nothing was signed off in the log unless the buyer went through with the deal or the owner requested it (and the person paying agreed). Otherwise the buyer would just be presented with a report of the findings.
 
kmead said:
I really like to do pre-purchase checks, I'm in west coast today finishing up on an a Meridian pre-purchase. A nearly dead heated windshield, broken pilots seat back and some small stress wrinkles in the wing roots are the biggest problems to work through. Specializing helps when it comes to what parts and tools to take and knowing what to look for. Sometimes things don't go as expected. In Holland while checking a Meridian hot section my borescope lamp blew, luckily the shop had an extra light source.

Some of the more common words after a buyer passed on the pre-purchase.

I bought the airplane with a fresh annual inspection from the sellers shop.
The shop that did the annual works on jets and King airs.
The airplane just came out of a extensive repair by experts.
But it has a Garmin 500 panel and a new interior.
You could eat off of the hangar floor and the airplane was spotless.
The owner always told his shop to do everything.
I really hit it off with the seller.
All service bulletins and letters are done..

One of my favorites- That red airplane just looked good in my hangar.
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"It was pretty"

Pretty airplane need to be topped at the annual 3 months after bought sight unseen

Tablespoons of hard carbon in the screen lead to boresoping the cylinders, found heavy scuffing in the bores. Pulled the first cylinder off, showed the owner the piston and the condition of the skirts.

"but the compressions were in the 70s!"

"because they're full of oil, not because they are healthy"

A couple of annuals later and it's a really nice airplane with some good upgrades, but the cost to get there:yikes:
 
Skylane81E said:
Have them done, and by a new mechanic to the plane!

As of today folks bringing me planes with out one are batting 1000 for needing expensive work at the first annual.
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And what is more, pony up for a full and complete pre-buy. This is NOT the time to be frugal.

I learned that the hard way when I let some A&P that wanted to do me a favor sell me a "bargain pre-buy". He missed a bunch of stuff that I am paying to fix now on my own dime. And since I did not pay him to do a thorough inspection I do not have much room to complain. Pretty much anything that he missed could be considered something I did not pay him enough to check.

As it is, the seller came down $3500 on what was discovered and would have come down at least enough more to pay for a better pre-buy had I had a proper one done.

They pay for themselves, perhaps many times over!
 
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Tom-D (3) The signature said:
or disapproving [/COLOR]for return to service the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, component part, or portions thereof.
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This is probably the biggest area that Pilots seem to have little or no understanding of "return to service". It gets my attention when pilots pick up a plane after major maintance and not check the log to see if anything was put in it. Or they do maintance on their plane and not make any entry in the ac log.
 
brien23 said:
This is probably the biggest area that Pilots seem to have little or no understanding of "return to service". It gets my attention when pilots pick up a plane after major maintance and not check the log to see if anything was put in it. Or they do maintance on their plane and not make any entry in the ac log.
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Normally someone prints me a sticker or I write the entry for owner maint.
 
Tom-D said:
Most of the buyers in this world would like to know what that is.
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I think the same inspection as an annual would be a good start. And then arrange to make it an annual if you buy. I know the annual on the Arrow is 21 hours. I could have paid the cost of an annual inspection and should have.
 
It's whatever is defined by the scope of work section in the agreement the buyer executes with the shop. Doesn't everybody use one?

Tom-D said:
Most of the buyers in this world would like to know what that is.
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wabower said:
It's whatever is defined by the scope of work section in the agreement the buyer executes with the shop. Doesn't everybody use one?
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Most buyers aren't smart enough to know what to write in the block.

Proof is the number of buyers here that bought junk.
 
alfadog said:
I think the same inspection as an annual would be a good start. And then arrange to make it an annual if you buy. I know the annual on the Arrow is 21 hours. I could have paid the cost of an annual inspection and should have.
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IOWs, you don't care that the radios don't work, or the ELT is absent, the paint is faded, windows are cloudy, the interior plastic is all cracked, the seats are ripped, etc.

all that counts on value, but does not cause the aircraft to be unairworthy.

My best way to explain a Pre-buy inspection is pretty simple, I'm an A&P-IA, but Ron Levi would give you better pre-buy inspection on a Grumman than I can, He knows the type, the paper work requirements, and the market. he could tell you if the annual preformed last was done by a good shop, he could tell you if the equipment all works as it should. I could do that, but I would have to stop and learn what Ron already knows.

Same goes for the EXP aircraft, you would be better off getting some one who knows or has built one to do the inspection.

Knowing the type of aircraft is better than following a check list.

what are you really wanting to know when you ask for a pre-buy.
 
Tom-D said:
IOWs, you don't care that the radios don't work, or the ELT is absent, the paint is faded, windows are cloudy, the interior plastic is all cracked, the seats are ripped, etc.

all that counts on value, but does not cause the aircraft to be unairworthy.

My best way to explain a Pre-buy inspection is pretty simple, I'm an A&P-IA, but Ron Levi would give you better pre-buy inspection on a Grumman than I can, He knows the type, the paper work requirements, and the market. he could tell you if the annual preformed last was done by a good shop, he could tell you if the equipment all works as it should. I could do that, but I would have to stop and learn what Ron already knows.

Same goes for the EXP aircraft, you would be better off getting some one who knows or has built one to do the inspection.

Knowing the type of aircraft is better than following a check list.

what are you really wanting to know when you ask for a pre-buy.
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First thing I look for is hangar history. You can't beat a hangar for long term value.
 
For whatever reasons (some of which are obvious but no reason to beat a dead horse) buyers are apparently unable to comprehend the magnitude of problems and resulting costs that can ensue. If they could, they would approach the purchase process much differently. Live and learn.

alfadog said:
I think the same inspection as an annual would be a good start. And then arrange to make it an annual if you buy. I know the annual on the Arrow is 21 hours. I could have paid the cost of an annual inspection and should have.
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Henning said:
First thing I look for is hangar history. You can't beat a hangar for long term value.
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Good one, we will require the FAA place that on the FAR 43-D as a item for the annual.


All I ever wanted to know is " will this thing get me home" I'll fix the other stuff.
 
How would you do a pre-buy on a new EXP kit? aren't you really buying an aircraft?
 
Tom-D said:
IOWs, you don't care that the radios don't work, or the ELT is absent, the paint is faded, windows are cloudy, the interior plastic is all cracked, the seats are ripped, etc.

all that counts on value, but does not cause the aircraft to be unairworthy.
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Um, no, I did not say that. What I said was "I think the same inspection as an annual would be a good start."

Also, I do not need an A&P to tell me if "the paint is faded, windows are cloudy, the interior plastic is all cracked, the seats are ripped, etc."
 
wabower said:
For whatever reasons (some of which are obvious but no reason to beat a dead horse) buyers are apparently unable to comprehend the magnitude of problems and resulting costs that can ensue. If they could, they would approach the purchase process much differently. Live and learn.
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I had no prior experience with aircraft ownership. I fell for an A&P's offer to save me some money on the pre-buy. He is a good mechanic but one of those guys that is a bit too quick to cut himself short as far as holding his line on doing things the right way. He thought he was doing me a favor but he was not and I did not know enough at that time. No big thing, we like the airplane and the price we paid for it.
 
As noted, many behavioral characteristics are puzzling, including post-purchase rationalization. :D;)
alfadog said:
I had no prior experience with aircraft ownership. I fell for an A&P's offer to save me some money on the pre-buy. He is a good mechanic but one of those guys that is a bit too quick to cut himself short as far as holding his line on doing things the right way. He thought he was doing me a favor but he was not and I did not know enough at that time. No big thing, we like the airplane and the price we paid for it.
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wabower said:
As noted, many behavioral characteristics are puzzling, including post-purchase rationalization. :D;)
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Right. So there are no lessons to be learned from experience. It is all self-serving post-[whatever] rationalization
 
Tom-D said:
Good one, we will require the FAA place that on the FAR 43-D as a item for the annual.


All I ever wanted to know is " will this thing get me home" I'll fix the other stuff.
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That's not even required, it just helps determine desirability and value and is one of the things I look fo in condition. No body has to tell me. A 50 yr old plane that spent it's life with hangar owners/renters is obvious on inspection.
 
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Tom-D said:
How would you do a pre-buy on a new EXP kit? aren't you really buying an aircraft?
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I would look at everything and evaluate condition and value and see if the current owner and I agree on a condition and number.
 
Tom-D said:
How would you do a pre-buy on a new EXP kit? aren't you really buying an aircraft?
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I don't think so because it's in lots of pieces when it's new from the factory. When I start building it, I don't think it's new any more. I'm not sure at what point in the build that one could say that it is an aircraft.

I'm guessing you really mean a newly assembled EAB aircraft.:)
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I'm guessing you really mean a newly assembled EAB aircraft.:)
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No assembly has nothing to do with it, the kit will not be an aircraft until there is an N number applied to it.

This thread is proof there is no such thing as a Pre-buy, because no one knows what that is, because it is different to each buyer and seller.

but some buyer's concept of what it should be is comical.
 
This is all good stuff, and I say that from the perspective of someone who's probably (hopefully) going to buy an airplane within the next year.

My take on it as a prospective buyer... I can look at the paint, windows, interior, avionics and general condition. I can do a lot of inspecting to see the general state of maintenance and upkeep. Did the owner bother to keep the airplane clean? Is the engine compartment clean, everything properly tied down? Have moving bits obviously been kept lubricated? If not, there's a good chance he may have had a similar slack attitude toward maintenance.

Then there are things I will need an A&P to look at. I know a lot about engines, and a Lycoming is not technologically much different from a Corvair, VW or Harley engine... but I want an A&P to borescope it and look at the things he knows can go wrong or be worn out like mags. I'll want the oil filter taken apart. Aside from the engine I'll want the inspection panels pulled and the moving guts looked at... I'd feel like an idiot if I skipped that and a poorly maintained, unlubricated flight control failed on my way home and killed me.

So for general, overall condition - it's all me. For aircraft-specific items that I'm not able to see/check/judge for myself, I have to rely on the A&P. Then I'll either walk away or start negotiating.
 
DaleB said:
This is all good stuff, and I say that from the perspective of someone who's probably (hopefully) going to buy an airplane within the next year.

My take on it as a prospective buyer... I can look at the paint, windows, interior, avionics and general condition. I can do a lot of inspecting to see the general state of maintenance and upkeep. Did the owner bother to keep the airplane clean? Is the engine compartment clean, everything properly tied down? Have moving bits obviously been kept lubricated? If not, there's a good chance he may have had a similar slack attitude toward maintenance.

Then there are things I will need an A&P to look at. I know a lot about engines, and a Lycoming is not technologically much different from a Corvair, VW or Harley engine... but I want an A&P to borescope it and look at the things he knows can go wrong or be worn out like mags. I'll want the oil filter taken apart. Aside from the engine I'll want the inspection panels pulled and the moving guts looked at... I'd feel like an idiot if I skipped that and a poorly maintained, unlubricated flight control failed on my way home and killed me.

So for general, overall condition - it's all me. For aircraft-specific items that I'm not able to see/check/judge for myself, I have to rely on the A&P. Then I'll either walk away or start negotiating.
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Pretty savvy buyer.

If you found out that it was maintained by the best most knowledgable person of the type? what then?
 
So there's no such thing as a haircut because each one is different?

Tom-D said:
No assembly has nothing to do with it, the kit will not be an aircraft until there is an N number applied to it.

This thread is proof there is no such thing as a Pre-buy, because no one knows what that is, because it is different to each buyer and seller.

but some buyer's concept of what it should be is comical.
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Tom-D said:
Pretty savvy buyer.

If you found out that it was maintained by the best most knowledgable person of the type? what then?
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Hey, listen, I'm probably as good a person as you're going to find at repairing and maintaining some things. If you're paying me to fix your stuff, you're going to get absolutely top notch work done. My own stuff... well... sometimes it gets done what I've got the time and the inclination to do. Besides, I know how close to the edge of breaking I can run it.

So to answer your question, I'd still want a second opinion from someone with nothing at stake.
 
wabower said:
So there's no such thing as a haircut because each one is different?
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Do you have many models of hair? how about manufacturers? did God give you an AD list for all of them?
 
denverpilot said:
Unless the aircraft sat in it unflown and not properly buttoned up for long-term storage...
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I don't care, inside a hangar in dry country the aircraft can be economically recoverable for the right price even if it was put away wet 40 years ago, provided! you prevent nesting in your airframe.
 
I've always heard that the buyer of any airplane should figure on paying 10% of the cost after the sale to get it to fix the things missed in the pre-buy and pass an annual at a different shop than was used by the seller.

I've only been involved in a few plane purchases, but that's been my experience.

It seems like every A&I has different ideas of what is important, but they all agree that the last maintainer was an idiot.

Richard Bach says every airplane, everywhere, has things wrong with it. I think he's correct.
 
Tom-D said:
Do you have many models of hair? how about manufacturers? did God give you an AD list for all of them?
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Why not share what you would recommend the buyer of her FIRST airplane do in the way of a prebuy. Not what YOU would do as someone that says they wll fix everything when they get home but as someone that has to pay, and pay fairly dearly, for an A&P to fix everything that needs fixing.

What would that first-time buyer expect to pay for that prebuy?

Let us talk about an average C-172 or Cherokee that a first-timer might buy. Let us say in average condition and maintained previously by an average shop. Make whatever other assumptions you care to to get it out of the "it all depends" realm of non-answer.
 
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alfadog said:
Why not share what you would recommend the buyer of her FIRST airplane do in the way of a prebuy. Not what YOU would do as someone that says they wll fix everything when they get home but as someone that has to pay, and pay fairly dearly, for an A&P to fix everything that needs fixing.

What would that first-time buyer expect to pay for that prebuy?

Let us talk about an average C-172 or Cherokee that a first-timer might buy. Let us say in average condition and maintained previously by an average shop. Make whatever other assumptions you care to to get it out of the "it all depends" realm of non-answer.
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First off airframe condition. Airframe repairs are unrecoverable, expensive and time consuming. It's where the majority of the time should be inspecting on the aircraft. Engines are rather straight forward to asses and pro rate rather linearly. Avionics typically work or not on no given schedule. Then there are the log books. There are a myriad of devils that can lie in their details. This is where having an IA experienced in type really can save you the jackpot. Rarely can they save you from a major breakdown after purchase, but they can save you a $20k snafu pretty quickly.
 
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