Tom-D
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OMG,, do you really need to get the FAA CD of the aircraft history records?
Home work,,,,, did anyone say "Home Work"
Pre buy pre buy pre buy!!
- Thread starter Skylane81E
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OMG,, do you really need to get the FAA CD of the aircraft history records?
Home work,,,,, did anyone say "Home Work"
Skylane81E
Final Approach
And much of it can be done with out needing the mechanic on the clock.
wabower
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I don't need a mechanic for any of it, but know that shuffling the paper and comparing the information can be a time-consuming process depending on the owner's record-keeping and filing.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
Yep, a more average or inexperienced buyer will probably want more guidance though:wink2:
wabower
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Absolutely. My pre-buy work is done alongside one of my IA friends, in team-tag fashion. I help de-cowl or whatever is necessary for him to start the inspection, then I start the logs and records review.
We help each other out when necessary and make notes of anything we don't like or don't understand, then discuss them at lunch or end of day.
By noon of day two (at latest) we're usually ready to either close the deal or fold our tent.
We help each other out when necessary and make notes of anything we don't like or don't understand, then discuss them at lunch or end of day.
By noon of day two (at latest) we're usually ready to either close the deal or fold our tent.
alfadog
Final Approach
Sounds like a good system. I got myself up to speed pretty quickly following the purchase of my Arrow and by the time we took it over for post-purchase repairs, I had a better AD review done than the mechanic.
wabower
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Avantix and other software programs have removed the bugaboo from most of the AD quagmire. Still some potential traps to fall into, but much less time-consuming than before.
alfadog
Final Approach
Do you use one of those? Personally, I cannot see it for just a guy with an airplane like myself, looks like Avantext is $650? Obviously worth the investment if you are an A&P or broker.
wabower
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I get the most-recent out of date disk from the shop. A high percentage of shop-maintained airplanes already have the computerized records, so it's not as hard as it sounds. The biggest chore is getting all of the various engine, airframe and appliance/accessory stuff entered into the system.
Tom-D
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alfadog
Final Approach
What can a missed AD cost?
Meh, you can use that "justification" for any purchase, i.e. better upgrade your panel to SVT, how much is your life worth?
Skylane81E
Final Approach
It's a time thing, for one plane it's not worth it, but when you are doing searches on a fleet, well to be able to click into avantext, and see at a glance that there are no new ADs and snag out the recurring ones you need this time. It adds up.
Searching faa.gov doesn't take too much longer, it's that it doesn't spit records out at you that kills ya.
alfadog
Final Approach
That's a good idea.
Tom-D
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Does every one realize that once you own the aircraft, you are the first to get the new ADs?
And if the owner receives the paper copy, why aren't they in the history records for that aircraft ?
To me, when they are not included, that is a big indicator of sloppy record keeping.
What else ain't there?
And if the owner receives the paper copy, why aren't they in the history records for that aircraft ?
To me, when they are not included, that is a big indicator of sloppy record keeping.
What else ain't there?
alfadog
Final Approach
Airframe and engine AD's are the easy ones. It is the fuel pump AD or somesuch that trips me up.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
You should be getting those too.
alfadog
Final Approach
Good to know. I have a bunch of docs from the previous owner but do not think there are many ADs in there. There are print-outs of prior AD workups by past mechanics.
Tom-D
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Best way to show compliance is with "ADlog" I give my customers a discount when they have ADlog.
all those old work up should go away. each A&P-IA should be doing their own research.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
I use the old work ups, they save me time, but only by helping me find the actual records in the logs. Knowing when that AD was done helps find the log entry spelling it out.
Tom-D
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There is pages in the back of the new A/F logs that provide a place for AD compliance.
Verify all those entries are correct , and clean out the files.
Most new customers's logs are a mess with stuff that is way out out of date.
With ADlog, you get a booklet that has each and every AD for your aircraft, the first thing a authorized A&P must do is verify all ADs listed, each has a page for sign offs, and each AD must be verified and signed off. then that booklet becomes a part of the aircraft maintenance records to be given to the inspector at each annual.
I know no inspector that doesn't trust the ADlog and it keeps all the records in one place.
denverpilot
Tied Down
We toss them in the records box, but none of our mechanics ever seem to give them more than a cursory glance to make sure there isn't a "surprise" one for something added to the aircraft that's not bog-standard.
The shops here work on so many Cessnas and have the computerized AD tools, that they don't seem too interested. What they really do seem to like is a printed squawk sheet with good descriptions of any problems and three or so copies. One usually ends up on the tool cart next to the airplane, I've noticed. Whether the other two are in the round file or used, I don't know.
I feel your pain on something they don't normally work on, though. Organization is a lost art for some folks.
alfadog
Final Approach
What does that product cost?
Just looked at the site and I guess what they do is research applicable ADs and provide a standardized binder with printed sheet on each AD with spaces for date, etc.??
Tom-D
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denverpilot
Tied Down
AdLog would probably get more takers if their website weren't "contact us for quote".
I hate stuff that's not up-front pricing.
But I do think the system looks nice. And I tossed a note to the co-owners asking if they've ever considered it. It appeals to my "I wish I were more organized" side.
How hard would it be for them to give flat rate pricing to category/class/type and have it published?
Don't like hidden Sales pricing voodoo. Too much of that in my biz already.
I hate stuff that's not up-front pricing.
But I do think the system looks nice. And I tossed a note to the co-owners asking if they've ever considered it. It appeals to my "I wish I were more organized" side.
How hard would it be for them to give flat rate pricing to category/class/type and have it published?
Don't like hidden Sales pricing voodoo. Too much of that in my biz already.
alfadog
Final Approach
AdLog would probably get more takers if their website weren't "contact us for quote".
I hate stuff that's not up-front pricing.
But I do think the system looks nice. And I tossed a note to the co-owners asking if they've ever considered it. It appeals to my "I wish I were more organized" side.
How hard would it be for them to give flat rate pricing to category/class/type and have it published?
Don't like hidden Sales pricing voodoo. Too much of that in my biz already.
I feel the same way. "contact us for quote" is code for "we are going to raep you" in my view. It might not be so but why don't they at least give a range.
wabower
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Wrong. Many questions arise, some on a regular basis, about prior work, AD's and many other issues. A copy of old records can be very helpful in determining what transpired. Some buyers are partial to airplanes with records that date back to Noah. The records belong to me and I'm the only one who decides if/when they are discarded.
Tom-D
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alfadog
Final Approach
Why? I don't feel some compulsion to needlessly insult other folks with my opinion. I don't go around telling ugly people that they are ugly either.
I called. The gal that answered had no information for me and said I would get a return call shortly. I did not.
wabower
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The company has been in business for quite some time. Woudn't it be fair to assume they have dealt with this question many times and have concluded that the current policy is preferable to the alternatives?
AdLog would probably get more takers if their website weren't "contact us for quote".
I hate stuff that's not up-front pricing.
But I do think the system looks nice. And I tossed a note to the co-owners asking if they've ever considered it. It appeals to my "I wish I were more organized" side.
How hard would it be for them to give flat rate pricing to category/class/type and have it published?
Don't like hidden Sales pricing voodoo. Too much of that in my biz already.
denverpilot
Tied Down
No. Or as some have been saying here, facts not in evidence.
Being in business "a long time" in a market with no competition that fills a niche, doesn't mean they're the best at it. Or that they've even examined how they do it. Just that the market is small. Seen plenty of small businesses like that.
To me, it looks like a one-man show who enjoys how he runs things and hasn't even considered putting his price list into drop-down boxes on the website or into a real database. Inventory's probably done from a spreadsheet, as is pricing.
They could probably sell the whole company to Jepessen, who'd have it automated in a week, and they could go fishin' every day on the proceeds.
It's paper kits with FAA data on them... Jeep has that kind of automation, marketing, and web development for ordering, nailed.
wabower
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Given the current pilot demographic, I wonder how many of them give a fat-rats about whether a company even has a website, let alone whether it is equipped with the bells and whistles deemed necessary by nerd-infested internet forums.
If the primary source of business is through referrals from shops and happy customers (which I suspect based on the way I learned of it) I'd think the marketing method would be less problematic since the potential customer has already been given a sip of the koolaid.
If the primary source of business is through referrals from shops and happy customers (which I suspect based on the way I learned of it) I'd think the marketing method would be less problematic since the potential customer has already been given a sip of the koolaid.
No. Or as some have been saying here, facts not in evidence.
Being in business "a long time" in a market with no competition that fills a niche, doesn't mean they're the best at it. Or that they've even examined how they do it. Just that the market is small. Seen plenty of small businesses like that.
To me, it looks like a one-man show who enjoys how he runs things and hasn't even considered putting his price list into drop-down boxes on the website or into a real database. Inventory's probably done from a spreadsheet, as is pricing.
They could probably sell the whole company to Jepessen, who'd have it automated in a week, and they could go fishin' every day on the proceeds.
It's paper kits with FAA data on them... Jeep has that kind of automation, marketing, and web development for ordering, nailed.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Hmm. Good point.
My demographic thinks, "Crappy website, probably a crappy company."
I'm likely not their target audience since my demographic isn't buying airplanes. (I'm definitely an outlier on that graph.)
I see from re-reading my post that apparently iOS knows what a Jeep is, but not a Jepp. -- As an example of zero interest out there in aircraft ownership in the younger techie crowd. Jeep had to be added to the database at some point, by someone...
I first heard of it in 2005 from Busch's article in AvWeb. Back when they still had piles of writers and articles. Looked up the article again.
Notably missing from the article is a website link from a web-based magazine, so the website may be newer than 2005, or wasn't worth linking to back then.
Haven't checked archive.org to see how far the site goes back in the Wayback machine.
I didn't believe need it; my transaction was not great and other knowledge was, so I save myself the money. That does not mean I may not be caught out by it at some future point. You buy a King Air and it's an unbelievably good value.
Dr. O
Pattern Altitude
About the only thing I can add to this thread is that for sellers, you need to make it crystal clear when you hand the logs over for the prebuy is that NO ONE is authorized to make any entry into the logs - upon pain of a major lawsuit...
While I have not in the past required the inspecting mechanic to sign a receipt for the logs, after reading this thread, I will in the future make them sign a receipt that also says they understand that they are not allowed to make any entries...
Remember, one third to one half of the value if your plane is that pile of log books... An adverse entry can lower the value of your plane - which is no different than that mechanic siphoning money from your bank account...
If the buyer wants to make the prebuy a part of the annual inspection, his mechanic can annotate the logs AFTER the purchase...
While I have not in the past required the inspecting mechanic to sign a receipt for the logs, after reading this thread, I will in the future make them sign a receipt that also says they understand that they are not allowed to make any entries...
Remember, one third to one half of the value if your plane is that pile of log books... An adverse entry can lower the value of your plane - which is no different than that mechanic siphoning money from your bank account...
If the buyer wants to make the prebuy a part of the annual inspection, his mechanic can annotate the logs AFTER the purchase...
wabower
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timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
Skylane81E
Final Approach
One of the great things about giving out stickies!
I can give you the entry and and you can decide if you want it or not.
Granted all I typically say is changed filter and inspected element or something similar. What I did goes on the entery, what i find goes into my report.
Not only that!!! People in the future will actually be able to read the entry!
No personal offense meant if you have impeccable hand writing, but most logs I review I spend more time trying to figure out what was written than reviewing data.