pre buy inspection

DKirkpatrick

DKirkpatrick

Pre-takeoff checklist
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DKirkpatrick
Hey, anybody know what an pre buy inspection, roughly, should cost on a single, with a turbo and retract? thanks
dan
 
just get a full blown annual....with "your" IA. You'll know what you have after that.

....otherwise you payz your money...you take your chances. Depending where you have the annual inspection that can be anywhere from $800-1,500 for the "inspection".

The "pre-buy" inspection is non-structured inspection....more of a quickie look see in a few areas....with no sign-off. It's fairly meaningless....and can cost as much as the annual inspection.:rolleyes2:
 
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Cost depends on what you want inspected,every pilot,or mechanic has a different opinion of what is important. If I'm buying out of my area I have my mechanic talk to the shop doing the inspection. If in the area I have the inspection rolled into an annual inspection.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
just get a full blown annual....with "your" IA. You'll know what you have after that.

....otherwise you payz your money...you take your chances. Depending where you have the annual inspection that can be anywhere from $800-1,500 for the "inspection".

The "pre-buy" inspection is non-structured inspection....more of a quickie look see in a few areas....with no sign-off. It's fairly meaningless....and can cost as much as the annual inspection.:rolleyes2:
Click to expand...

A pre buy is basically an annual on steroids.
 
Not how I have them done.

Of course I've also never had the crazy "first annual" expenses.

If you're not spending more time on the pre buy than a normal annual you're setting yourself up for some major expenses down the road. ;)
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
NOpe.....the other way around.

A Pre-buy is much less than an annual.....with no signature no nada. :yes:
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Both and neither.

There is no standard or set definition of what a 'pre-buy' is.

It is up to the potential buyer to define. Many pre-buys are done as complete annuals including sign-off. Others can be as simple as a shade tree A&P taking a quick look over and doing a compression check. Just depends on what you want it to be.
 
DKirkpatrick said:
Hey, anybody know what an pre buy inspection, roughly, should cost on a single, with a turbo and retract? thanks
dan
Click to expand...


Isn't there somewhere, somehow we can put a FAQ that says that a prebuy isn't an annual, but is about as thorough as the prospective owner wants to pay for?

Sure, we can pull all the jugs, zyglow/xray them, pull the engine and rip it apart and inspect all the internal parts. Pull the wings off, pull the tail feathers off ... etc.

Somebody should say that a prebuy is exactly what the prebuy shop is going to tell you. Neither more, nor less, until you pay them more for more.

Jim
 
It all boils down to Vehicular Karma. If you have bad VK it don't matter what you do, you could buy a brand new Toyota Corolla and it would be a lemon. If you have good VK you can buy a Bonanza sight unseen off of eBay and end up with your dream machine.
 
Nobody knows what a prebuy consists of. Mechanics that do them just charge by the hour. Welcome to aviation.
 
buy from a good broker ,like van bortal , pat robertson at indy air they will find what you are looking for.out of the 11 aircraft i bought the only dogs were ones that i went direct . i dont usually like brokers ,think real estate ,investment, insurance .ect
 
DKirkpatrick said:
Hey, anybody know what an pre buy inspection, roughly, should cost on a single, with a turbo and retract? thanks
dan
Click to expand...

I see you have gotten some good advice and some bad advice. That is par for the course.

Contrary popular opinion in some quarters, an annual inspection is not a substitute for a pre-purchase inspection. They are different in that they have different goals. The purpose of an annual inspection is to determine if the aircraft is at least minimally airworthy at that moment in time. If your goal is to buy a minimally airworthy airplane, then unless it needs an annual, you are as well off with a Ouija board and your own instincts for a lot less money.

The purpose of a pre-purchase inspection is to make an economic determination of whether the aircraft is a good purchase. Thus it is partly predictive. It also does a couple of things that an annual inspection does not, or at least it should. One is to test the avionics. The other is to fly the plane and see if it performs as expected by someone who is familiar with the type of aircraft.

The hard thing about getting a pre-buy is finding someone who knows how to do one. There is no standard and mechanics are not taught how to do them. Most are not pilots who have owned and operated an aircraft so they are not familiar with the mindset of a potential buyer who is looking for an aircraft that is not going to blindside them with huge catch-up maintenance expenses in the first couple of years. Ask around to find recommendations for mechanics, or even long time owners of the make and model you are considering. A mechanic that knows how to do a pre-purchase will be able to guide you to figuring out the scope of the inspection.

As for your specific question, there is no real answer. It depends where the plane it, what plane it is, whether travel is involved. Sometimes the inspection is really, really short. I didn't charge for the one a did a week ago as all I had to do was look at the log entry for the engine overhaul. It took me 15 minutes to figure out that the buyer wanted no part of it.
 
I suggest you take your question to a board specific to your target airplane. For example, when I was asked the question on the VAF sight, I got specific things to look at on the 6A.

I suspect that the Piper, Censna, Beech, etc owner forums will also have good targeted answers for you.
 
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When I bought my Cessna 182 I was talking to the local Cessna authorized service centers. The price varied on the location and you tell them what you want specifically. I chose them due to they see 182s all day long. They have the experience in problems with them. They also have to follow cessnas guidelines vs some guy in an independent shop. Will I have Cessna do an annual or regular work, no. There is no reason to pay more for an oil change. Will they see it every now and then just for a fresh set of eyes, yep. So the ones that say do an annual, you can but my inspections was a day with panels open looking for corrosion and compression test. They then spent 3 days going over all the logs (1972 182p) and found a few issues but nothing serious. I spent $600 and felt that was a good price for piece of mind. The annual was done 2 months prior to my purchase and the plane was flown very regularly (120+ hours / year). So the plane condition will influence what you probably should do and how much it will cost.


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A annual is to make sure the aircraft is airworthy, unless you're buying a project the plane you are pre buying should be airworthy.

A real pre buy just starts at airworthy, double check the logs to the FAA CD, to the NTSB search etc.

Check the condition and function of everything, check the rigging and performance against the book on the test flight, verify all nav/auto pilot/ OATs/ etc work.

Basically you're verifying the plane was as advertised, a good APIA would also give you his two cents on what type of deal you're getting.

Going from a in depth inspection like this to a annual (should you buy it) isn't going to require much if anything.

This is how I bought my current plane and my last plane, I never had these "surprises" you read about so much.

I'm just not rich enough to do any less on a pre buy or a expensive piece of hardware.
 
DKirkpatrick said:
Hey, anybody know what an pre buy inspection, roughly, should cost on a single, with a turbo and retract? thanks
dan
Click to expand...

I would think that would be totally negotiable based on how in-depth the buyer wanted the inspection to be, which would involve estimating man-hours/equipment, etc, needed.
 
As others have stated, a pre-buy examination is whatever you want it to be. Because this is not an inspection, there is no work that is required by regulations. The pre-buy would be billed at the shop rate and the time required would depend on how in-depth you want them to go.

Make sure you have the work done at a shop that YOU pick. To eliminate any bias, this should be a shop that has not worked on that particilar aircraft on any kind of regular basis. The shop should also be familiar with the type of plane that you are taking to them so that they know what to look for.

The entire purpose for the pre-buy examination is to determine the overall condition of the aircraft and anticipate any problems that may arise after purchase to help you avoid a money pit. As such, the examination should begin with the most expensive components that would cause you to walk away from the purchase. If a disqualifying condition is found, stop the examination and talk to the seller. If you cannot reach an agreement, at least you did not sink a bunch of money into an extensive pre-buy.

Start with research of the log books, a compression check, and boroscope inspection. Dig deeper into anything questionable in the log books to ensure that any major repairs or alterations have been performed properly and all required ADs have been complied with. Check for airframe corrosion and ensure that the avionics are functioning as they should. Your mechanic should look into any issues that are known problems on that particular aircraft (ex. fuel tanks on Mooneys), and give you his/her opinion of the general condition of the plane.

Have the mechanic create a discrepancy list that you can use to negotiate with the seller if required. If you decide that you want to purchase the plane, you can talk to the shop to determine how much more work would be required to satisfy the requirements of an annual inspection. You would certainly save some money on repeat labor, but if the annual is not due for some time, this may not be the best approach. You may be better served by flying the plane for a while to determine what needs work and having everything addressed at once when the annual is due.
 
Kristin said:
I see you have gotten some good advice and some bad advice. That is par for the course.

Contrary popular opinion in some quarters, an annual inspection is not a substitute for a pre-purchase inspection. They are different in that they have different goals. The purpose of an annual inspection is to determine if the aircraft is at least minimally airworthy at that moment in time. If your goal is to buy a minimally airworthy airplane, then unless it needs an annual, you are as well off with a Ouija board and your own instincts for a lot less money.

The purpose of a pre-purchase inspection is to make an economic determination of whether the aircraft is a good purchase. Thus it is partly predictive. It also does a couple of things that an annual inspection does not, or at least it should. One is to test the avionics. The other is to fly the plane and see if it performs as expected by someone who is familiar with the type of aircraft.

The hard thing about getting a pre-buy is finding someone who knows how to do one. There is no standard and mechanics are not taught how to do them. Most are not pilots who have owned and operated an aircraft so they are not familiar with the mindset of a potential buyer who is looking for an aircraft that is not going to blindside them with huge catch-up maintenance expenses in the first couple of years. Ask around to find recommendations for mechanics, or even long time owners of the make and model you are considering. A mechanic that knows how to do a pre-purchase will be able to guide you to figuring out the scope of the inspection.

As for your specific question, there is no real answer. It depends where the plane it, what plane it is, whether travel is involved. Sometimes the inspection is really, really short. I didn't charge for the one a did a week ago as all I had to do was look at the log entry for the engine overhaul. It took me 15 minutes to figure out that the buyer wanted no part of it.
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You are right, I have seen pre buy inspections miss all sorts of things that are not required under part 43 appendix D required for an annual. Finding someone who knows the type of aircraft and it's flight characteristics is more important.:yes:
 
Airworthyness has lots of meanings to lots of people
 
rolivi said:
I suggest you take your question to a board specific to your target airplane. For example, when I was asked the question on the VAF sight, I got specific things to look at on the 6A.



I suspect that the Piper, Censna, Beech, etc owner forums will also have good targeted answers for you.
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This. Different type clubs will have more details on specific gotchas for the type and many have their own detailed recommended pre-buy items to check.
 
brien23 said:
You are right, I have seen pre buy inspections miss all sorts of things that are not required under part 43 appendix D required for an annual. Finding someone who knows the type of aircraft and it's flight characteristics is more important.:yes:
Click to expand...

If it is a complex aircraft, this is particularly true. I know the Pipers, especially the Lock Haven twins. There are quirky things that if you don't know what you are looking at, you will not know that the AD that was signed off as terminated, in fact has the wrong kit installed, for example. I would never attempt a pre-buy on a Mooney or any complex Cessna. I do know Bo's pretty well, but there are so many really good Beech people I don't bother. Wouldn't touch any of the rest of the Beech products to do a pre-buy. I guarantee I would miss a bunch of stuff.
 
The American Bonanza Society offers a pre-buy checklist that is exceedingly detailed and thorough.

While shopping for my Bonanza, I paid to have the inspection done on two that I did not purchase because the Beechcraft specialist I hired found egregious problems that had been missed by whomever had been doing the annual inspections on those planes for years and years.

One of them had been flying around with the right aileron incorrectly fastened at the outboard attach point. This particular issue is the subject of a Beechcraft Service Bulletin - plainly, the AP-IA doing the annuals wasn't a Beech expert, or even a diligent generalist. There were other issues as well.

Insofar as costs go, the reputable shops have a set rate based on shop hours, but you will incur costs to have the airplane taken to the pre-buy shop, or take your guy to the airplane.

As was stated in an earlier post, the PBI includes combing through the logbooks, which can be truly tedious or a thrilling mystery story. A good IA with brand specific knowledge can infer a ton of information just because they recognize some utterly cryptic part number in a logbook entry - like maybe an entire gear leg assembly got replaced with no real mention per se, just a note like "Replaced part #WTF-234### in accordance with factory manual".

Anyway, I spent about 6 grand to not buy two Bonanzas and a Cardinal - best money I ever spent in aviation, aside from the DPE fee for the PPL check ride.
 
Ive just inspected the airplane and the logs myself and gotten a compression test with my two purchases. Beforehand get a list of things from the owner not working or in need of maintenance. Now I will agree, I could have done more. But the planes were creampuffs, almost perfect shape, low hours. Both have done well.

Its a real hassle and worry. At least it was for me. Some people are cut out for it. Best thing for the buyer would be to bring the plane to buyer's mechanic. Owner flies it out. Then what does the owner do? Wait around there? Most owners wont do that. Somehow you need an honest assessment of condition. Especially these older planes. The best setup Ive heard is to bring your own mechanic and he brings his own compression tester. Hard to find one that will do that though.

Or find a mechanic at a different airport near the owners airport. Get the plane delivered and the delivering pilot transported back home. Have the mechanic do the prebuy. Plane gets picked up. Mechanic finds some things for sure. Price gets haggled. Put it all in writing. Watch out for cheating. There are guys with schemes out there. Then make sure you get good title. Good title is probably not gotten more than anything. It is almost epidemic. Seems like there are a lot of outstanding liens, most of which have been paid off but not recorded correctly at the FAA office in Oklahoma. Then they crop up when you sell and have to be fixed. Someone has to track down the lending institution and get them to sign a release. Not too hard if it still exists. If it doesn't you have to find the lending institutions heirs if you will and get them to sign or do something with a lawyer to fix it. That gets expensive and difficult.

From the owners point of view he doesnt want to deliver the plane to an unknown mechanic. He might have to pay to get it airworthy if the buyer doesnt go through with it. I would hesitate to leave my plane in the hands of a mechanic. There are a lot out there that would find somehting that has to be fixed regardless. Too easy to get into a dispute.

If you can do three things:
1. Good title
2. Good engine
3. No corrosion

And value the plane correctly. Pay about the right price. And remember it is much less expensive to buy it with what you want than to get that fixed into what you want. Buying things to fix them is called a rebuild project. The real price of the airplane, remember, is the difference in the buying and selling price and you will probably spend more running it than you paid for it. Typical is to buy it for $60k put 1000 hours and $90k into running it and selling it for $50k. So the purchase price is not the whole story.

Planes are sort of like human beings. No plane is perfect.
 
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